[Firewire]

I refuse to add letters to LGBT

[Shaun]

i'm ambivalent about the gender thing i do generally believe people who refuse to identify as male, female or trans (or anonymous) are just trying to be a bit special, but i don't really care.

like, biologically, there is nothing else. there's no "i have no gender". i think it's just trying to attach parts of your personality (uncertainty of identity; sexuality; body dismorphia) to your genitals when it really shouldn't matter

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Shaun

i'm ambivalent about the gender thing i do generally believe people who refuse to identify as male, female or trans (or anonymous) are just trying to be a bit special, but i don't really care.

like, biologically, there is nothing else. there's no "i have no gender". i think it's just trying to attach parts of your personality (uncertainty of identity; sexuality; body dismorphia) to your genitals when it really shouldn't matter

totally agree

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Shaun

i'm ambivalent about the gender thing i do generally believe people who refuse to identify as male, female or trans (or anonymous) are just trying to be a bit special, but i don't really care.

like, biologically, there is nothing else. there's no "i have no gender". i think it's just trying to attach parts of your personality (uncertainty of identity; sexuality; body dismorphia) to your genitals when it really shouldn't matter

Fair enough.

I see it in a different light though. I mean homophobes say that homosexuality is an act/choice even though we all know it's not. My point is that because we don't have that other person's experience, who are we to judge, y'know?

Gender is an entirely social construct anyway. Sex isn't. But gender most definitely is. It's completely logical to me that there's a spectrum of gender identity, I mean humanity is wide and diverse in every way possible. It makes sense that that goes for gender too. I seriously doubt all 7 billion humans on this planet fit into the binary we have now.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Ninastar

why?

can we really not say girls toys or boys toys anymore?

You really can't see the problems with having specific toys for boys and specific toys for girls? The Barbie dolls and dolls houses for girls because that's your role as a woman and here's some action figures and cars for you boys cause you need to 'be a man' and be strong and authoritative? You don't see the issue with this kind of social conditioning?

I get that there's some things in this thread which are quite complex and hard to get people's heads around but surely to most people they can see the issues with having gender specific toys?

[Jack_]

Yeah I still don't get why people don't understand that gender is a social construct and totally different to biological sex, it's really not hard to understand

Gender, much like sexuality is a sliding scale spectrum and various people fall into different places along the line. Humans are not either/or and black and white entities, we're quite complex

[Jessica.]

Yeah, I don't see the problem with using the names of the toys instead of "boys" toys and "girls" toys. I look after kids all the time and it really does bother them if someone says something like like is for another gender, unfortunately, I know when I was a child I would have definitely preferred a skylanders toy rather than my little pony.

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by Jessica‪

Yeah, I don't see the problem with using the names of the toys instead of "boys" toys and "girls" toys. I look after kids all the time and it really does bother them if someone says something like like is for another gender, unfortunately, I know when I was a child I would have definitely preferred a skylanders toy rather than my little pony.

I don't think it matters which toy a boy or girl receives but a parent should still be able to say "a girls toy" and for the person behind the desk to know which one she is referring to.

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Yeah I still don't get why people don't understand that gender is a social construct and totally different to biological sex, it's really not hard to understand

Gender, much like sexuality is a sliding scale spectrum and various people fall into different places along the line. Humans are not either/or and black and white entities, we're quite complex

Exactly! Finally someone else on here who gets it.

But yeah I was just thinking, and an example of gender being a social construct is dresses. 200/300 years ago in the aristocracy it was entirely normal for young boys to be put in dresses similar to those worn by girls. Nothing was thought of it. Flip forward to today and now dresses have shifted into becoming something that's strictly feminine. That is gender. It's fluid, it changes, and it's entirely determined by society.

[Ninastar]

again, like most social justice bloggers, you're assuming that the girls and boys toys will ONLY been seen as girls and boys toys and ONLY given to children of the 'correct' gender.

I very much doubt in the day in age, if a boy wants to play with the barbie toy rather than a car from a happy meal, a parent is going to say 'NO YOU ARE A BOY, YOU CAN'T HAVE THE GIRLS TOY!!! its the rules!!!!!'

seriously, people make on that these problems are so much worse than they are

yes, girls toys arent always just for girls and vice versa, i wont deny that

but things saying 'you must say this' or 'you cannot say that' are stupid because you are assuming things which quite often arent true

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by Niall

Exactly! Finally someone else on here who gets it.

But yeah I was just thinking, and an example of gender being a social construct is dresses. 200/300 years ago in the aristocracy it was entirely normal for young boys to be put in dresses similar to those worn by girls. Nothing was thought of it. Flip forward to today and now dresses have shifted into being strictly female. That is gender. It's fluid, it changes, and it's entirely determined by society.

Anyone can wear a dress if they want to, doesn't matter if you're male or female. Look at Gary Levy from Big Brother Canada, he wears "female" clothes all the time but still identifies as male, because he is. Even Eddie Izzard wears dresses -- he's still male.

[Shaun]

I imagine most of the 7 billion people on this planet have far more pressing concerns like poverty than "I'm not sure if I'm a boy or a girl". It's no coincidence that pretty much everyone who's involved in this movement is white and middle class... I just can't shake the attention-seeking air about it all.

And I get what you mean about toys/clothing, but if someone asked me what "gender" I was I'd take it to mean the same thing as what sex I was. All of this is to do with gender stereotypes, not gender itself.

Also I think a lot of the terms just alienate people and are thrown around to give the impression of research or expertise. I still have no idea what "cis" means and where it came from, and words ending in '____phobia' are banded about too much that it makes it seem a constantly aggressive and uncompromising movement.

I'm willing to admit I'm a total n00b about it all though.

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by Shaun

I imagine most of the 7 billion people on this planet have far more pressing concerns like poverty than "I'm not sure if I'm a boy or a girl". It's no coincidence that pretty much everyone who's involved in this movement is white and middle class... I just can't shake the attention-seeking air about it all.

And I get what you mean about toys/clothing, but if someone asked me what "gender" I was I'd take it to mean the same thing as what sex I was. All of this is to do with gender stereotypes, not gender itself.

Also I think a lot of the terms just alienate people and are thrown around to give the impression of research or expertise. I still have no idea what "cis" means and where it came from, and words ending in '____phobia' is banded about too much that it makes it seem a constantly aggressive and uncompromising movement.

I'm willing to admit I'm a total n00b about it all though.

It's also all influenced by the internet. If one person says "I refuse to be male or female" someone else is like "oh same" and it just follows in a pattern like dominoes.

I don't know what cis means, and I don't care enough to look it up.

[Ninastar]

I'm going to reply properly now, because childrens toys and 'wrong labelling' is something I'm pretty interested in.

I get that some people take offense to toys being named after certain genders.

But seriously, in this day in age, especially in the UK and other parts of Europe, it is not ANYTHING like what you hear social justice bloggers complaining about.

Schools and nurseries arent even allowed to tell children what toys to play with. I don't understand how it is wrong to say 'girls toys' or 'boys toys' when it is clear what toys are being spoken about.

I understand that some boys are going to play with barbies and some girls will play with monster trucks, ETC... but the truth is, the majority of children still play with toys, related to their gender.

Of all the schools I've been to, of all the nurseries I've worked in, I've rarely ever seen kids playing with toys of the 'opposite' gender. Most kids just like playing with toy animals, bricks/lego, dressing up and playing outside.

It is seriously not as bad as people make on.

Never have I once year a parent say, 'Oh no Timothy, you cant play with that! It's a girls toy!!!!"

Once we had a little boy wear a dress-up dress outside to his parents and his dad laughed and said he looked beautiful.

SJBs seem to have this problem with making the world so much worse than it is... I just don't get it.

It does not make me small-minded to think that toys can still be called 'girls toys' or 'boys toys'. To me, being small-minded is not accepting that other people have opinions too.

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Anyone can wear a dress if they want to, doesn't matter if you're male or female. Look at Gary Levy from Big Brother Canada, he wears "female" clothes all the time but still identifies as male, because he is. Even Eddie Izzard wears dresses -- he's still male.

I know. But walk into any clothing store and you can't buy a dress for a man, right? That's what I'm getting at. It's clothing completely encoded throughout society is something that's female, even though it's just a piece of cloth with one hole instead of two. That assumption that society (or, western society rather) makes of it being women's clothing is something entirely superfluous when you think about it really.

My point is that gender is social construct. Something determined by human thought and ideas. Sex is obviously something biological, but gender? Nope, that's much more complex.

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by Niall

I know. But walk into any clothing store and you can't buy a dress for a man, right? That's what I'm getting at. It's clothing completely encoded throughout society is something that's female, even though it's just a piece of cloth with one hole instead of two. That assumption that society (or, western society rather) makes of it being women's clothing is something entirely superfluous when you think about it really.

My point is that gender is social construct. Something determined by human thought and ideas. Sex is obviously something biological, but gender? Nope, that's much more complex.

You can buy a dress, there doesn't need to be dresses for men. Yes stores are targeted to specific genders but it doesn't mean that the opposite gender can't buy anything from it. Most of the population have no problem with the types of clothing available to them. It's a minority. I understand that some people may want to wear something that is not of their gender and I think that's fine.

It doesn't matter. If you have a form to fill out and it asks you for your sex, there are two options (or three if you include third gender).

EDIT: I know gender is a social construct, I studied sociology.

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Shaun

I imagine most of the 7 billion people on this planet have far more pressing concerns like poverty than "I'm not sure if I'm a boy or a girl". It's no coincidence that pretty much everyone who's involved in this movement is white and middle class... I just can't shake the attention-seeking air about it all.

And I get what you mean about toys/clothing, but if someone asked me what "gender" I was I'd take it to mean the same thing as what sex I was. All of this is to do with gender stereotypes, not gender itself.

Also I think a lot of the terms just alienate people and are thrown around to give the impression of research or expertise. I still have no idea what "cis" means and where it came from, and words ending in '____phobia' are banded about too much that it makes it seem a constantly aggressive and uncompromising movement.

I'm willing to admit I'm a total n00b about it all though.

Hm, fair enough. I mean I'm white and painfully middle class, but looking at the toxicity of gender within society today I like to think being progressive about it might help in the future. I don't know.

Well that's the thing. You have to separate gender and sex. Sex is the biological definition of whether you're male or female, and that's something that obviously can't be argued against. Gender however, is your mental identification and that can go from cisgendered, to transgender, or genderfluid etc.

Cisgendered means you identify with the gender you were assigned with at birth. It was created as a neutral and inoffensive term over 'normal'/'regular people' or something like that.

[Tom4784]

I don't think the labelling of toys is a big deal, I had loads of Action Man figures as a kid and I remember one time taking one of my sister's Barbies and using some of my old Action Man clothes to turn her into an Action Woman and no one batted an eyelid at me essentially playing with a Barbie. In fact my dad, who is as masculine as you can be without wrestling a bear and is a bit of a casual homophobe, liked the fact that I was using my imagination.

I don't think it's a real concern, girls who play with barbies aren't always going to grow up to be typically girly girls and boys that play with army toys and such won't always grow up to a typical man's man. The choice of toys as a child won't change who the child will become. It's just a case of being painfully oversensitive.

[Shaun]

i had hot wheels, power rangers & thunderbirds and i grew up to be a total lad's lad

[Ninastar]

tbh i blame my love for polly pockets and barbie dolls for making me ghey

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Niall

Exactly! Finally someone else on here who gets it.

Likewise! Good to see you posting more recently, I've been fighting a lone battle on these issues for a while now

Well Munchkins helps but she's rarely online

Originally Posted by Ninastar

again, like most social justice bloggers, you're assuming that the girls and boys toys will ONLY been seen as girls and boys toys and ONLY given to children of the 'correct' gender.

I very much doubt in the day in age, if a boy wants to play with the barbie toy rather than a car from a happy meal, a parent is going to say 'NO YOU ARE A BOY, YOU CAN'T HAVE THE GIRLS TOY!!! its the rules!!!!!'

seriously, people make on that these problems are so much worse than they are

yes, girls toys arent always just for girls and vice versa, i wont deny that

but things saying 'you must say this' or 'you cannot say that' are stupid because you are assuming things which quite often arent true

I'm not saying girls toys aren't given to boys and vice versa, but the very problem with labelling them as gender specific is that you socialise people into the belief that 'this toy is for boys and this toy is for girls', meaning that it doesn't matter whether you let your children play with opposite toys or not, they're going to be seen as 'weird'/'different'/'abnormal' etc. By giving them the labels in the first place you're creating a problem where kids will be looked upon as weird if they don't play with the toys they're 'supposed' to

Not only that but the gender stereotypes encoded within the toys are appalling, so girls are meant to have dolls houses, mini kitchens and Barbies because that's where they will be spending their life and their appearance is what they need to concentrate on because it's oh so important, meanwhile guys need to get their action toys out, cars and toys which symbolise strength, power and authority because they need to 'be a man' (so much wrong and damaging with that saying in itself but that's a different debate entirely)

Separating toys into specific genders just perpetuates gender stereotypes which are wholly untrue and also runs the risk of outcasting children that don't wish to play with the toys assigned to their gender

Toys don't need to be given a gender specific audience, they're just objects. I don't actually see any reason to label them as such

Originally Posted by Shaun

I imagine most of the 7 billion people on this planet have far more pressing concerns like poverty than "I'm not sure if I'm a boy or a girl". It's no coincidence that pretty much everyone who's involved in this movement is white and middle class... I just can't shake the attention-seeking air about it all.

And I get what you mean about toys/clothing, but if someone asked me what "gender" I was I'd take it to mean the same thing as what sex I was. All of this is to do with gender stereotypes, not gender itself.

Also I think a lot of the terms just alienate people and are thrown around to give the impression of research or expertise. I still have no idea what "cis" means and where it came from, and words ending in '____phobia' are banded about too much that it makes it seem a constantly aggressive and uncompromising movement.

I'm willing to admit I'm a total n00b about it all though.

Well of course, I'm far more interested and worried about economic policies and the ridiculously vast and unequal gaps in wealth but that doesn't mean we can forget about other issues. Obviously different things are going to be important to different people but inequality is inequality, it all needs to be sorted

[Jack_]

@ Ninastar's other post, the reason the kids are generally playing with the toys that have been assigned to their gender is because they've been socialised that way. That's the very point, by having 'girls toys' and 'boys toys' whether people like or not that then is seen as the norm and so children will just gravitate to those toys because that's what they feel is right to them

Girls don't pop out the vag searching for dolls houses and boys aren't eager to play with toy cars, this behaviour has to be taught. It isn't natural, it's socialisation

[Jessica.]

You can't say backward people don't still exist though. I posted this on facebook recently.

omg edited the wrong post i fail

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Likewise! Good to see you posting more recently, I've been fighting a lone battle on these issues for a while now

Well Munchkins helps but she's rarely online

Rofl well I'll help when I can! I honestly think gender is such a stupid thing I mean gender roles are just so constraining. It's silly.

Originally Posted by Jessica‪

You can't say backward people don't still exist though. I posted this on facebook recently.

Some people

[lily.]

I wish we could all get along like we used to in middle school.
I wish I could bake a cake filled with rainbows and smiles and everyone would eat and be happy.