[Jessica.]

SHE DOESN'T EVEN GO HERe

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by L

I wish we could all get along like we used to in middle school.
I wish I could bake a cake filled with rainbows and smiles and everyone would eat and be happy.

You don't even go here, **** off.

[lily.]

I live here.

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by L

I live here.

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Jack_

@ Ninastar's other post, the reason the kids are generally playing with the toys that have been assigned to their gender is because they've been socialised that way. That's the very point, by having 'girls toys' and 'boys toys' whether people like or not that then is seen as the norm and so children will just gravitate to those toys because that's what they feel is right to them

Girls don't pop out the vag searching for dolls houses and boys aren't eager to play with toy cars, this behaviour has to be taught. It isn't natural, it's socialisation

But if they are happy then what is the big deal?

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Ninastar

But if they are happy then what is the big deal?

Nothing? I don't get what you're trying to say? Yes if kids are happy playing with the toys that have been assigned to their gender then that's great, but there will be some whom don't wish to play with those toys and because of the gender labelling that exists there's a risk that those children will be outcasted and seen as 'weird' because they wish to play with a toy which doesn't conform with their gender and that's both stupid and appalling. The fact that toys are labelled by gender is what creates that problem in the first place, if you just create toys and stick them in a massive toy shop and don't divide them up into genders for absolutely no reason at all (like I said I can't actually think of one good logical reason for doing so, it's such a pointless yet damaging procedure) and therefore teach kids that toys are just objects and you can play with what you want, then any potential issues that I brought up in this thread are removed. What's wrong with that?

[GypsyGoth]

Forcing people to not recognize gender sounds intolerant. There are difference between boys and girls, deal with it. Imaging that the differences will go away if we live in some gender neutral world won't happen. What's next, sending kids to some gender neutral re-education camp? And what's after that, how about banning our hormones?

I'm not sure that it'll be a utopia at all, plus these toy stores would be a complete mess, toys of all sorts stacked together, sounds like a shopping nightmare.

[Jack_]

Way to over-exaggerate issues that aren't even there, the hyperbole wasn't really necessary

There are no natural personality differences other than biological ones between male and females, gender is a socially constructed concept. Deal with it.

Toys can be categorised by purpose, action/soft toys/dress up/cars/dolls, just like books are categorised into genres like romance/horror/thriller etc you don't need to separate them into gender specific categories so no it wouldn't be a 'shopping nightmare' it would be a shop without a girls and boys section, wow how will the world cope?!?!

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Way to over-exaggerate issues that aren't even there, the hyperbole wasn't really necessary

There are no natural personality differences other than biological ones between male and females, gender is a socially constructed concept. Deal with it.

Toys can be categorised by purpose, action/soft toys/dress up/cars/dolls, just like books are categorised into genres like romance/horror/thriller etc you don't need to separate them into gender specific categories so no it wouldn't be a 'shopping nightmare' it would be a shop without a girls and boys section, wow how will the world cope?!?!

kinda ironic given the whole argument

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Way to over-exaggerate issues that aren't even there, the hyperbole wasn't really necessary

There are no natural personality differences other than biological ones between male and females, gender is a socially constructed concept. Deal with it.

Toys can be categorised by purpose, action/soft toys/dress up/cars/dolls, just like books are categorised into genres like romance/horror/thriller etc you don't need to separate them into gender specific categories so no it wouldn't be a 'shopping nightmare' it would be a shop without a girls and boys section, wow how will the world cope?!?!

"gender is a socially constructed concept. Deal with it."

I am, I can deal with the world the way it is. You're the one who is "fighting a lone battle on these issues".

And if you believe that books aren't marketed to boys or girls then you haven't been in a bookstore or are totally naive.

And having all the dolls together is what's done in toy stores already, so what you want is to have all the dolls together, but if someone calls it a section for girls toys, they get fined or kicked out of your gender neutral world?

[lily.]

Originally Posted by Ninastar

kinda ironic given the whole argument

[Jack_]

One thing I will never understand about all of this is why some people care so much about an issue that doesn't affect them in the slightest

I realise I'm saying this as a person who has no experience or contact with any transgender person which is somewhat hypocritical but I've been fascinated by gender for a while now so I have reason to take an interest in it. But for those people who it doesn't affect, they have no experience of and they don't understand...I genuinely don't get why you care so much? Things like allowing the legal recognition of genders outside of the binary is not going to have any effect on your life, so why do you care? Most of the issues effect transgenders and any kind of liberation they're searching for is going to have very little impact on your lives so you caring seems pretty pointless to me. Some of these social justice people seem a little bizarre admittedly but well...don't search for it then? I'd get pissed off if I read a load of white nationalist stuff which I've come across on Twitter before...so...I don't look for it. Are you all just trying to rile yourselves up or something?

You don't have to understand it, but if it doesn't have an impact on your lives in any profound way what's there to care about? All that's going to happen is some people are going to feel accepted and liberated meanwhile your life continues as normal, what's wrong with that?

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Ninastar

kinda ironic given the whole argument

Except the issues I raised are there, so...not really

[Smithy]

This whole thread got real heavy real fast

[Jack_]

LOL @ that typo

[Ninastar]

people are making an issue, because as said in the thread, it's literally everywhere on tumblr

people are making you feel like ****, for not believing in something that you have a right to not believe in

its just all so hypocritical

[lily.]

I'm a casual observer in this heavy thread..

[Z]

When I were a lad there were just heterosexuals, homosexuals, bisexuals and asexuals. Then they started introducing Leaf Greensexuals and suddenly your Pikachus and asexuals weren't enough anymore

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

"gender is a socially constructed concept. Deal with it."

I am, I can deal with the world the way it is. You're the one who is "fighting a lone battle on these issues".

And if you believe that books aren't marketed to boys or girls then you haven't been in a bookstore or are totally naive.

And having all the dolls together is what's done in toy stores already, so what you want is to have all the dolls together, but if someone calls it a section for girls toys, they get fined or kicked out of your gender neutral world?

Yes you can deal with the world the way it is because it doesn't affect your wonderful liberated life, how lovely of you. These issues don't affect me personally, female inequality doesn't affect me, gay rights inequality doesn't affect me, a lot of economic inequality doesn't affect me...but they're all still issues which I care about, funnily enough I don't just think because the world is fine and dandy for me that I should forget about everyone else that faces injustice and inequality

I never said that either, I was using an example of how books are categorised into genres so you could have a similar process for toys

And why are you making up bizarre policies and hysterically putting words into my mouth? Why does a section of dolls need to be for girls - I actually don't understand that. What is it about a doll that means a girl should play with it? Do girls emerge from the womb desperate to play with Barbies or something? I didn't know that was part of our natural psych to be automatically attracted to plastic objects that look a certain way, I've been so mistaken all these years

[Z]

Jack if you want a Barbie just go and get one I'm honestly not judging

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Z

When I were a lad there were just heterosexuals, homosexuals, bisexuals and asexuals. Then they started introducing Leaf Greensexuals and suddenly your Pikachus and asexuals weren't enough anymore

omfg

what about Fire Redcisgender?

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Ninastar

people are making an issue, because as said in the thread, it's literally everywhere on tumblr

people are making you feel like ****, for not believing in something that you have a right to not believe in

its just all so hypocritical

So because some teenagers on the messed up cluster**** of a site that Tumblr already is are searching for praise and attention you're going to devalue a genuine, real cause that concerns people who aren't on such sites whining and have these issues actually affecting their life? People on the other side of the world make you feel like ****, really? Just...read on...you don't have to read it and you don't have to be pissed off by it either, it devalues the genuine cause for no reason at all. They are what this thread is about, social justice bloggers...I don't think they need to be taken seriously (even if a couple of the things you posted are perfectly legitimate concerns)

These issues don't affect well I'm guessing 100% of the people in this thread so there's no reason for anyone to give a ****, if you don't understand it then just concentrate on issues you are actually passionate about and leave people that care about this to sort it themselves. Like I've already said, most of the stuff they're after will never have any kind of profound impact on anyones life and it some of it would certainly never happen in our lifetime anyway so there is no real reason to get care about it if you don't understand/aren't affected by it. If it's going to make some people happy and not change you, what's there to care about? How is that so bad?

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Yes you can deal with the world the way it is because it doesn't affect your wonderful liberated life, how lovely of you. These issues don't affect me personally, female inequality doesn't affect me, gay rights inequality doesn't affect me, a lot of economic inequality doesn't affect me...but they're all still issues which I care about, funnily enough I don't just think because the world is fine and dandy for me that I should forget about everyone else that faces injustice and inequality

I never said that either, I was using an example of how books are categorised into genres so you could have a similar process for toys

And why are you making up bizarre policies Why does a section of dolls need to be for girls - I actually don't understand that. What is it about a doll that means a girl should play with it? Do girls emerge from the womb desperate to play with Barbies or something? I didn't know that was part of our natural psych to be automatically attracted to plastic objects that look a certain way, I've been so mistaken all these years

Do people with these new made up genders really face injustice and inequality?

And I fail to see the issue of toys being called girls toys and boys toys. And if you don't have any bizarre policies against them, then why not leave it the way it is.

Have you looked into the effects of a gender neutral world on kids? Are you just guessing that it would be a better place for you to live?

[Z]

To be serious for a moment; there will likely never be a time when toys (or... anything, really) will be gender neutral. It's a marketing thing. Too many companies revolve around being on either side of the gender gap. Magazines, toys, literature, grooming products, clothes... it's a utopian ideal that will never be achieved which is why it's so appealing to 'deconstruct' because it'll never actually happen.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

Do people with these new made up genders really face injustice and inequality?

And I fail to see the issue of toys being called girls toys and boys toys. And if you don't have any bizarre policies against them, then why not leave it the way it is.

Have you looked into the effects of a gender neutral world on kids? Are you just guessing that it would be a better place for you to live?

Hm let's see

- Overwhelming ridicule and rejection (case in point: this thread) from people who refuse to understand or listen to how they feel
- The fact that in most places they can't be legally recognised by what they define themselves as
- A perpetuation of the agonising self-doubt/hate and confusion that they already face as a result of numerous things that have been mentioned in this thread

I've already explained the issues, do I really need to go over this again?

Separating toys into genders socialises children into believing that they are naturally supposed to play with certain bits of plastic because that's what they've been taught to, meaning that there's a risk that any child who deters from that and wishes to play with a toy that hasn't been assigned to their gender could face being isolated, rejected and seen as weird for deviating from what's 'normal'.

Not only that, but the gender roles and stereotypes that are encoded within these gender specific toys are appalling. Teaching boys that they need to 'be a man' and 'man up' by playing with action figurines and cars, that they need to be strong, authoritative because that's what being a man is all about. Teaching girls that they need to play with Barbies and miniature kitchens because a girls appearance is very important and you must make yourself look perfect in order to impress the boys and you need to learn your place which is in the home. It just perpetuates these age old stereotypes which need to be eradicated

I see no actual reason for them to be labelled as boys and girls toys, there's no downsides to those labels being removed whatsoever yet there's no clear benefits for them existing, so why do they need to? What's the issue if we stop doing it? It's not about a 'gender neutral utopia' at all that's a wild exaggeration on your part, it's simply letting kids play with whatever bits of plastic they wish not because they've been socialised into thinking they have to play with this because that's the ~natural thing to do as if you emerge from the womb having any idea about toys anyway.

I actually can't believe that some people seemingly think that toy selection is natural and can't seem to understand that everything about it is socialisation, we are near-empty blank slates when we're born you know, we're born into a world of codes and messages and stereotypes which we are taught and that shapes the people we become. You aren't born liking Barbie, Big Brother and onesies