[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well no, but I'm also 6'2, well built, (was ) young fit and healthy, a fast learner and had a wealth of previous experience in various jobs...

BASICALLY I WAS THE PERFECT CANDIDATE, OK???

... well... anyway, my point was that even then it can be hard-ish, so I can't imagine what it's like for, say, an alcoholic midget with one GCSE.

...I think that lots of jobs are more on personality though and whether a person would 'fit' with a team/colleagues regardless of qualificatios etc and maybe other factors...and some could probably also be whether you know someone there..?...'by the law' that's not allowed we know but it does happen...anyway, I hope you didn't think that I was in someway being difficult or picky with you because I didn't mean to be ..I just think that in some jobs..(obviously not all..)..lesser academically qualified people would be on an equal par with everyone else...and therefore not necessarily unemployed for longer ...but yeah, I do see all of your points though and I'm always interested in reading your posts...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I think that lots of jobs are more on personality though and whether a person would 'fit' with a team/colleagues regardless of qualificatios etc and maybe other factors...and some could probably also be whether you know someone there..?...'by the law' that's not allowed we know but it does happen...anyway, I hope you didn't think that I was in someway being difficult or picky with you because I didn't mean to be ..I just think that in some jobs..(obviously not all..)..lesser academically qualified people would be on an equal par with everyone else...and therefore not necessarily unemployed for longer ...but yeah, I do see all of your points though and I'm always interested in reading your posts...

To be fair, I think you're right and "It's not what you know, but who you know" applies in many apparent job vacancies which is another problem really... By law the jobs have to be advertised and interviewed for, but they already know who is getting it, it's all just a formality - but obviously a complete waste of time for any other applicants other than gaining a bit of interview experience for a few. It definitely happens on all levels, it happens in the company I work for (have personally seen it twice, a new position and a promotion) and it's a "big" company. With smaller businesses, I suspect MOST of the time entry level roles go to family / friends of family / friends' offspring. And I guess that's part of the problem. People forget that the dice are loaded in such a way that some individuals become all but "unemployable"... And forcing those people into full time graft on slave wages is unthinkable to me. But that's what's likely to happen, I fear.

[AnnieK]

At my first ever interview, things were not going great. The guy interviewing me said that I basically had no experience to bring to the job and they had seen people with more skills and better suited etc. I had pretty much resigned myself to not getting the job and then the interviewer asked to see my record of achievement, he saw what school I had gone and said...oh my son went to that school. It turned out his son knew my brother and lo and behold, the job was mine. Nothing to do with skills etc but just because for once having the golden child as a brother worked in my favour

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I've always said I'm not necessarily against people working to keep JSA except that;

- 6 months is currently not long term unemployed, depending in where you live it can take much longer at the moment. I was unemployed for 5 months after leaving University and that was with applying constantly, every day, and (not to blow my own trumpet, but) near-flawless school grades and a University level education. And no, I wasn't being picky. I was turned down from all of the major supermarkets (Morrisons outright told me at interview that there had been 900 applicants for 5 positions), dodgy warehouse based call centres, and fast food outlets (didn't even get an interview). So for people less able and less qualified... I don't think it's a unreasonable to suggest that one year is more appropriate for being considered "long term" unemployed.

- it should only be work that would otherwise not be being done. Improving towns (god knows they need it), parks, helping others who need but can't afford help, etc... No roles for companies that should be PAYING, for Christ's sake, it's ridiculous. They might as well fire everyone and then get them back in to work for free! Race to the bottom.

- finally, and this one is important to me, it should NOT, ever, be for less than minimum wage!!! Current JSA for an adult is 70 - 75 pounds a week. That's 11 to 12 hours of minimum wage work. People should NOT, EVER be doing more than 12 hours a week for that money. Full 35 hours for Ł75 works out as Ł2.15 an hour. It's disgusting.

What a reallly great and appropriate post Toy Soldier. I was about to comment then I read your post and now don't need to say a thing since I agree with it all completely, as to what you have said above.

Another very poorly planned measure and one that does in my view only reflect in the main,a 'punishment' of sorts for being unemployed rather than serious targetted and understanding assistance as to getting people back into work that can work that is.
This is not the way at all it should be done for me.

Great posts too from Vicky and Josy,(as always on these subjects) too, in my opinion.
Far more compassion and understanding needs to be the order of the day not these half baked 'disciplinarian' measures.

[thesheriff443]

you can talk about it all you want, this will happen!, and if it screws people over the government are not going to care.

Divide and conquer populism in the lead up to elections. People have been led into thinking that the cause of our financial issues as a county, are the poor people scrounging, when it's the rich people breaking the system, then scrounging.

That said, I'm not completely against people being forced into voluntary work, but only where they'll potentially increase their own marketability in the jobs market. It's pointless forcing people to clean graffiti, if that council department is well stocked.

There is always a need for administrators within local government, so why not train people to do that? They'd also save themselves money as they wouldn't need to utilise agencies as much, either.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

Divide and conquer populism in the lead up to elections. People have been led into thinking that the cause of our financial issues as a county, is the poor people scrounging, when it's the rich people breaking the system, then scrounging.

That said, I'm not completely against people being forced into voluntary work, but only where they'll potentially increase their own marketability in the jobs market. It's pointless forcing people to clean graffiti, if that council department is well stocked.

There is always a need for administrators within local government, so why not train people to do that? They'd also save themselves money as they wouldn't need to utilise agencies as much, either.

Steady on.....

Sorry - it's what I do. I try to save people money so they can give it to me instead of bloodsuckers like you.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

Sorry - it's what I do. I try to save people money so they can give it to me instead of bloodsuckers like you.

The councils I work with have screwed us right down anyway....we mainly do it as a public service now. Well, almost

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

you can talk about it all you want, this will happen!, and if it screws people over the government are not going to care.

I agree with you Sherriff and like the bedroom tax it will be implemented despite there being some serious flaws in it.

Being called long term unemployed at six months when we have been in recession for the last 4 years is laughable.

Making people work 35 hours a week for 70 quid is criminal and as others have pointed out the minimum wage should apply here otherwise what is the point of the minumum wage. If the government won't uphold it how can they expect companies to?

If they are going to implement it, it should be for those unemployed for 5 years plus, for those who the government can prove are not actively looking for work, and placements should only be for work in the voluntary sector. But even that is fraught with difficulties.

[Livia]

Honest work is no disgrace. If people are getting benefits, why would anyone ever imagine that you don't have to do anything for them? I work hard to pay the tax that pays those benefits, I see no reason not to expect people claiming benefits do some kind of community work in exchange. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and I don't see why people should expect to do nothing for cash.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Livia

Honest work is no disgrace. If people are getting benefits, why would anyone ever imagine that you don't have to do anything for them? I work hard to pay the tax that pays those benefits, I see no reason not to expect people claiming benefits do some kind of community work in exchange. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and I don't see why people should expect to do nothing for cash.

An honest days work for a honest day's pay.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Cherie

An honest days work for a honest day's pay.

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

[Josy]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

you can talk about it all you want, this will happen!, and if it screws people over the government are not going to care.

Yes it will happen but since this is a serious debates forum then talking about things is kinda the purpose you know

Originally Posted by Livia

Honest work is no disgrace. If people are getting benefits, why would anyone ever imagine that you don't have to do anything for them? I work hard to pay the tax that pays those benefits, I see no reason not to expect people claiming benefits do some kind of community work in exchange. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and I don't see why people should expect to do nothing for cash.

Of course it's no disgrace, what is a disgrace though is forcing people to do it for less then the minimum wage, just because at this time when the whole country is in a mess and people are losing jobs through no fault of their own they are dependent on benefits, most of these people on benefits have worked hard and also been paying tax since they left school but now when it's their turn to get some much needed help they are being vilified for it.

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

Divide and conquer populism in the lead up to elections. People have been led into thinking that the cause of our financial issues as a county, are the poor people scrounging, when it's the rich people breaking the system, then scrounging.

That said, I'm not completely against people being forced into voluntary work, but only where they'll potentially increase their own marketability in the jobs market. It's pointless forcing people to clean graffiti, if that council department is well stocked.

There is always a need for administrators within local government, so why not train people to do that? They'd also save themselves money as they wouldn't need to utilise agencies as much, either.

I agree with this.

Put these people into jobs that will further their experience in the sort of employment that needs workers the most and further their chances of getting actually paid employment afterwards and also pay them a decent wage for doing it.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Josy

Yes it will happen but since this is a serious debates forum then talking about things is kinda the purpose you know



Of course it's no disgrace, what is a disgrace though is forcing people to do it for less then the minimum wage, just because at this time when the whole country is in a mess and people are losing jobs through no fault of their own they are dependent on benefits, most of these people on benefits have worked hard and also been paying tax since they left school but now when it's their turn to get some much needed help they are being vilified for it.

As far as I know this scheme is not yet law, and we don't know how many hours people will be required to work for what they get if it does become law because all we have to go on is an uncorroborated report in the Daily Mail. So saying they won't be getting minimum wage and calling it slave labour is a bit of a knee-jerk. It also says they'll get supported job searching and help with travel costs and clothing for interviews. Or... they could sit at home on their arse all week and just take the money.

I don't think there is any stigma to people claiming benefits if they need them. But it's not sustainable long term. People should be expected to do something.

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Livia

As far as I know this scheme is not yet law, and we don't know how many hours people will be required to work for what they get if it does become law because all we have to go on is an uncorroborated report in the Daily Mail. So saying they won't be getting minimum wage and calling it slave labour is a bit of a knee-jerk. It also says they'll get supported job searching and help with travel costs and clothing for interviews. Or... they could sit at home on their arse all week and just take the money.

I don't think there is any stigma to people claiming benefits if they need them. But it's not sustainable long term. People should be expected to do something.

I know people who have been told by jobcentre workers that they will be sent out to work for at least 30 hours per week for their benefits.

You say there is no stigma attached to people claiming benefits but yet assume that these same people will be sitting at home on their arses doing nothing all week if they aren't forced to work for benefits... that's a pretty blinkered view not to mention quite insulting to those people imo.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Livia

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

There is if you are an MP. Duck pond anyone.

[smeagol]

Slave labour that wnker will be putting people in concentration camps soon and gassed.
cameron is the modern day hitler.

no one and i repeat no one should have to work for nothing. what that plan does is take real jobs away and of the market.why pay someone when you can get the job done for free. its illegal for starters. minimum wage is a law they wont even get the min wage they will be working for less than some kid a sweat shop in some 3rd world country. its disgusting.
if you find yourself out of work your better of going to prison under this plan. no work free rent and food lots of tasks and interests and qualifications. and your only worry would be bending over in the showers lol

a woman worked at a charity shop part time , ended up on the dole. they then sent her to work back at her old job for nothing. thats the result of this plan

[Kizzy]

Being on a benefit is no disgrace either and if you are gullible enough or blinkered enough to swallow the rhetoric that everyone on welfare for over 6 months is a scrounger and a shirker then I feel sorry for you.
As cherie said an honest days work for an honest days pay, the jobs that the proposals suggest are perfectly viable as credible full time employment.... so why is that not being implemented instead? It would cut jobless figures down further wouldn't it?....
It's a knee jerk reaction to think that anyone who is against this is not rational enough to see through this scam.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't think there is any stigma to people claiming benefits if they need them.

Originally Posted by Livia

Or... they could sit at home on their arse all week and just take the money.

Presuming that outside of this scheme people are sitting on their arses all week and just taking the money isn't stigmatising?

[Me. I Am Salman]

idts

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Salman!

idts

In english?

[Kizzy]

Is it ' I don't talk sense'?

[Kate!]

Josy, Kizzy, Marsh, Jesus and Cherie! I'm only half awake, as it's roughly two thirty am, so not gonna attempt a lucid lengthy post but have to say read all your posts and wholeheartedly agree, being in this position myself.

Regards...