[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Sorry Niamh, I thought LT was saying that these ancient cultures had 'worked out' as in 'solved' ie, no more immoral behaviour (crime being immoral, therefore no crime).

What I got from his post was that people were "moral" before religion/God told us we should be

[Jules2]

If Man can achieve this why can't God?

It surely is a difficult one Kirk, it really is. Tbh I have been looking into Essenes to see if I can find any hint of it. It all goes back to how we feel...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

What I got from his post was that people were "moral" before religion/God told us we should be

No prob. I've stated myself that Man has an intrinsic Moral Code. I guess the bone of contention is whether it evolved through natural evolution, was built in by an 'Intelligent Designer', or was instilled into Man by God.

I suppose your personal view on this - like pretty much everything - depends on your personal beliefs.

[Jules2]

"Well, many things have been said about the Essenes. Who are the Essenes, what are the Dead Sea scrolls, etc The catholic church was really bothered because the Dead Sea scrolls show in an obvious way that all that Jesus had done, were things that existed already. Jesus came into a tradition! This calls into question the whole catholic
church, who says that Jesus is a self begotten son of God, descended from the sky just like that in the middle of nowhere. Well they were very bothered, because we see quite openly in the scrolls that Jesus came into a tradition which existed already and that he was a son of man who became a son of God – as he says himself –, that means
an Essene!"


"Look at Jesus: “Do you want to follow me? Follow me! Let the
dead bury the dead. I came for life, to give you life. But a life that you don’t know, a divine life, a life above, a life with high ideas, a life which comes from on high, a life which is going to fill you with something spiritual, a life that we don’t see.”
.................................................. .........................

Please dont shoot the typist.........am just picking out pieces from the Essenes. Has anyone managed to read anything of the Dead Sea Scrolls, are they available?

[Kizzy]

[QUOTE=kirklancaster;7323376][QUOTE=Kizzy;7323181][QUOTE=kirklancaster;7323041][QUOTE=Kizzy;7322953]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

That's not true, you stated those who had not read the bible were spouting bollox.

With genuine respect to you, and without wishing for anything than balanced, civil discussion as a consequence; you misquoted me and/or completely misunderstood what I said and the context in which I said it. I never said that; "those who had not read the bible were spouting bollox" .[/B] or anything which could be construed as that. What I actually said - if you check my post correctly - is;

"I've no problem here Kyle - in fact I welcome it, because if you're reading, you're informed, and don't spout irrelevant bollox like some, even if you're contesting my viewpoint."

My reference was specifically about any person who responds to a post or comments on part of a post when what they are posting has absolutely nothing to do with the actual subject matter of the post which they are responding to - hence the term; "irrelevant bollox" -- 'irrelevant' being the key word.

I used the words; "if you're reading, you're informed" because I genuinely believe that a person who reads up on the subject being discussed, is far more likely to make more valid, relevant contributions to the matter being discussed, than someone who doesn't read up on the subject being discussed - no matter if that subject be 'The Holy Bible', or 'Fly Fishing' by 'J.R. Hartley'. What's more, I never defined what type of reading or what type of books, and I never mentioned the Bible in this part of the exchange.

"Right ok, I see give or take a millennium you were right." Thank you.

"Not sure how my comments on the bible as I see it are out of context, the bible has come up many times in this debate"

You are right Kizzy, the Bible has come up many times in this debate, it's just that the points you made - though valid - were out of context in the case of this particular exchange.

Anyway, I hope we've both cleared this up and can agree to disagree because I genuinely feel that 'arguing' per se is completely futile - especially on a subject such as this, which in all probability will never be resolved. A civil exchanging of ideas, and respectful discussion and debate is always, both more enjoyable, and fruitful - in my opinion.

You did say it, and whether you say you didn't mean anyone who had already contributed on this thread or not I will have to take your word I guess.
I wouldn't want to appear to be a pedant so yes lets draw a line.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Jules2

"Well, many things have been said about the Essenes. Who are the Essenes, what are the Dead Sea scrolls, etc The catholic church was really bothered because the Dead Sea scrolls show in an obvious way that all that Jesus had done, were things that existed already. Jesus came into a tradition! This calls into question the whole catholic
church, who says that Jesus is a self begotten son of God, descended from the sky just like that in the middle of nowhere. Well they were very bothered, because we see quite openly in the scrolls that Jesus came into a tradition which existed already and that he was a son of man who became a son of God – as he says himself –, that means
an Essene!"


"Look at Jesus: “Do you want to follow me? Follow me! Let the
dead bury the dead. I came for life, to give you life. But a life that you don’t know, a divine life, a life above, a life with high ideas, a life which comes from on high, a life which is going to fill you with something spiritual, a life that we don’t see.”
.................................................. .........................

Please dont shoot the typist.........am just picking out pieces from the Essenes. Has anyone managed to read anything of the Dead Sea Scrolls, are they available?

I think that's why we only have testament from disciples and hangers on, as an essene maybe jesus was a gnostic and his teachings esoteric?

[Creggle]

Originally Posted by Jules2

Do you believe in an afterlife though Creggle?

No, but strangely enough I believe we have a spirit and think reincarnation is a possibility, but you don't need a god or deity for that.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Creggle

No, but strangely enough I believe we have a spirit and think reincarnation is a possibility, but you don't need a god or deity for that.

We all have part of something, as I have said to me spirit is the life and reincarnation makes sense.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I think that's why we only have testament from disciples and hangers on, as an essene maybe jesus was a gnostic and his teachings esoteric?

Hi Kizzy I definitely believe his teachings were esorteric and for me some of the things in the bible should be looked at with an esorterical eye and thought.

Good old google, there is much on the Dead Sea Scrolls, have sent for a book to study. It will keep me out of trouble, mmmm I think......

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Jules2

We all have part of something, as I have said to me spirit is the life and reincarnation makes sense.

For reincarnation to make sense you would have to refute all the scientific laws we hold dear.

Would you care to attempt a stab at how you think it works and why you think that?

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

For reincarnation to make sense you would have to refute all the scientific laws we hold dear.

Would you care to attempt a stab at how you think it works and why you think that?

What would you term as scientific laws LT please. Tbh I do not think we can refute anything because they are in play. I know that the "spirit/soul/etheric body can leave the physical body. I know that the etheric can go into the past as I have done so. Many of these are my experiences which I cannot deny. They give me a greater understanding of myself. I have had much confirmed on the physical level.

As I go into the past I look to see what I am wearing, what do I look like, so much I could say but it is a long long story.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Jules2

What would you term as scientific laws LT please. Tbh I do not think we can refute anything because they are in play. I know that the "spirit/soul/etheric body can leave the physical body. I know that the etheric can go into the past as I have done so. Many of these are my experiences which I cannot deny. They give me a greater understanding of myself. I have had much confirmed on the physical level.

As I go into the past I look to see what I am wearing, what do I look like, so much I could say but it is a long long story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_science

Yes well sample size one is no sample so your claims have little merit scientifically.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_science

Yes well sample size one is no sample so your claims have little merit scientifically.

I appreciate what you are saying LT but I can only go by what I have experienced, I was going to say and until I know different but I do feel that I wont. I will keep an open mind though.

My astral travels have taken me to an understanding of perhaps the past, present and future are all one, they are dimensional. On one such venture I came back with the knowlege that perhaps we are the ghosts in this life at times. You see I also believe in absent healing and have had much cause to use it, there is such a lot tbh.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Jules2

I appreciate what you are saying LT but I can only go by what I have experienced, I was going to say and until I know different but I do feel that I wont. I will keep an open mind though.

My astral travels have taken me to an understanding of perhaps the past, present and future are all one, they are dimensional. On one such venture I came back with the knowlege that perhaps we are the ghosts in this life at times. You see I also believe in absent healing and have had much cause to use it, there is such a lot tbh.

LSD?

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

LSD?

No I can honestly tell you that I have never ever experimented. My experiences have been through the quality of prayer and the need to heal and to learn. My understanding of the drugs is that it separates the bodies and allows visions to overtake but as it is usually taken by those who just want to experience it isnt always a happy venture.

With scientific thought I think we have to realise that scientists are progressing more to the combination of the possible unexplained, as follows re extraterrestials

"The possibility of extraterrestrial life is not, by itself, a paranormal subject. Many scientists are actively engaged in the search for unicellular life within the solar system, carrying out studies on the surface of Mars and examining meteors that have fallen to Earth.[16] Projects such as SETI are conducting an astronomical search for radio activity that would show evidence of intelligent life outside the solar system.[17] Scientific theories of how life developed on Earth allow for the possibility that life developed on other planets as well. The paranormal aspect of extraterrestrial life centers largely around the belief in unidentified flying objects and the phenomena said to be associated with them to the factual evidence of life".

There is a thought that during the war people were being trained to spy on the enemy through the astral. There is to much in play to dispute any of it tbh. Many great books have been written on the subject.

I think we will find, as with the Great Writers of gonebydays, that something will be said by the Scientists one day but with the advent of time they may find something different which will give voice to alternative thought.

It is all so interesting.

[Jules2]

"Paranormal research[edit]
Approaching the paranormal from a research perspective is often difficult because of the lack of acceptable physical evidence from most of the purported phenomena. By definition, the paranormal does not conform to conventional expectations of nature. Therefore, a phenomenon cannot be confirmed as paranormal using the scientific method because, if it could be, it would no longer fit the definition. (However, confirmation would result in the phenomenon being reclassified as part of science.) Despite this problem, studies on the paranormal are periodically conducted by researchers from various disciplines. Some researchers simply study the beliefs in the paranormal regardless of whether the phenomena are considered to objectively exist. This section deals with various approaches to the paranormal: anecdotal, experimental, and participant-observer approaches and the skeptical investigation approach".

Taken from your link LT. One link leads to another.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Jules2

"Paranormal research[edit]
Approaching the paranormal from a research perspective is often difficult because of the lack of acceptable physical evidence from most of the purported phenomena. By definition, the paranormal does not conform to conventional expectations of nature. Therefore, a phenomenon cannot be confirmed as paranormal using the scientific method because, if it could be, it would no longer fit the definition. (However, confirmation would result in the phenomenon being reclassified as part of science.) Despite this problem, studies on the paranormal are periodically conducted by researchers from various disciplines. Some researchers simply study the beliefs in the paranormal regardless of whether the phenomena are considered to objectively exist. This section deals with various approaches to the paranormal: anecdotal, experimental, and participant-observer approaches and the skeptical investigation approach".

It all amounts to very little I am afraid. I think of it like ghost sitings. They always seem to be of medieval people and the images are grainy and unclear.

Why because that is what people thunk "ghosts" look like so they do what humans are good at and that is spotting human shapes in things. Why is it grainy because if it were sharp you could see what it really was and there is no mystery and no cache for the person claiming to have spotted it.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

It all amounts to very little I am afraid. I think of it like ghost sitings. They always seem to be of medieval people and the images are grainy and unclear.

Why because that is what people thunk "ghosts" look like so they do what humans are good at and that is spotting human shapes in things. Why is it grainy because if it were sharp you could see what it really was and there is no mystery and no cache for the person claiming to have spotted it.

I cant answer you really LT because we have to experience to know what I am saying. I consider it all as one, as we are in another dimension we are actually there. It is as though that is the real life at that time of being.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet;7324779[B

]It all amounts to very little I am afraid. [/B]I think of it like ghost sitings. They always seem to be of medieval people and the images are grainy and unclear.

Why because that is what people thunk "ghosts" look like so they do what humans are good at and that is spotting human shapes in things. Why is it grainy because if it were sharp you could see what it really was and there is no mystery and no cache for the person claiming to have spotted it.

Have seen such a ghost, we stayed in a very old Inn, I didnt know anything about it but in the night there he was.

I asked the landlord the next day, he then told me that yes they had a ghost. I was very intrigued with the experience.

[lostalex]

everyone just repeat after me... "I don't know".

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by lostalex

everyone just repeat after me... "I don't know".

This is where faith comes into something Alex, we know how we feel. As we know many have faith in the word of the bible.

Am just reading a book on the Dead Sea Scrolls, wow, theirs is a vengeaful god according to one section, death for the least thing all in the name of God. Obedience was the name of the game. Another section talks of gods within a God, maybe Stichin has something after all. They seem to talk as though God is a "man".......

Have only read so far so things may change later on in the text but I havent as yet found anything calming.

Marriage was allowed but sex was only to be practiced for the purpose of birthing. Hey ho have we come a long way today or not, I doubt whether the society of this time would have got very far as things are so lax.

[Jules2]

We seem to have come to a close but before I go I will just say one thing, thank you all for chatting have enjoyed all your views and I know that there is cause for everything to be considered.

I have got a bit further with the Scrolls and have learnt quite a bit tbh. The different laws etc. etc., reasons why things have been said in the bible. It has altered my mind to some things, their take on marriage and family is fascinating and surely wouldnt survive in this day and age. It has answered my question of "leave your famiy and follow me". It is all very politically minded. It is worth a read if anyone is interested in that period of time. I guess it is all our history. Anyway take care everyone.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by lostalex

everyone just repeat after me... "I don't know".

Amen!!Here lies the most intellegent post on the forum.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by lostalex

everyone just repeat after me... "I don't know".

and then repeat

"oh yeah, this is a discussion forum"