[Z]

I've been reading this wonderful book about China by Martin Jacques and, among many other things, he raises a point that I've long agreed with - that democracy is just yet another value imposed on the rest of the world by white men. It's the new form of slavery, of Christian missionaries, of colonisation. A large chunk of the world has arbitrary borders drawn by people who had no understanding of the land they were carving up, who had only money in mind when they made those decisions. I think that democracy and the idea of the nation state is not a universally accepted value, nor will it ever be, because the vast majority of the world is not anywhere near developed enough to sustain it.

I think it would be for the best if Africa and the Middle East just dropped the pretense and reverted to tribal kingdoms in many areas; I think it would calm the campaigns of ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram and the various other notorious groups that use extreme violence to prove a point: they don't want Western values. I think we really are on the cusp of World War III; a world war that will be centred around the Middle East and I think that the West will idly watch and do little to intervene until things get much, much worse. You could even argue that it already began a couple of years ago when the situation in Syria started to deteriorate massively - the world is a complete mess right now and the West is too busy taking part in dick measuring competitions with Vladimir Putin to notice. Not that I think that it's even our place to say or do anything - offer humanitarian aid, absolutely, but we as a collective have done a great deal of damage to the world, perhaps we should step back and wait until we're asked to help instead of sticking our noses where they're not wanted once again.

What do you think?

[Kizzy]

I agree, democracy is an illusion, money is worthless, power, land, oil and gold are the only thing heads of states want. Everything is geared towards social control formal and informal, nothing and nobody is free.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I agree, democracy is an illusion, money is worthless, power, land, oil and gold are the only thing heads of states want. Everything is geared towards social control formal and informal, nothing and nobody is free.

*slits wrists*

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

*slits wrists*

Hey if it's too deep here go paddle in the shallows in the lounge my fwend.

[Smithy]

Not on TiBB

[Kizzy]

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Hey if it's too deep here go paddle in the shallows in the lounge my fwend.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Are you still here?....



Oh... I think I hear a convo about some generic American comedy, quick!

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Z

I've been reading this wonderful book about China by Martin Jacques and, among many other things, he raises a point that I've long agreed with - that democracy is just yet another value imposed on the rest of the world by white men. It's the new form of slavery, of Christian missionaries, of colonisation. A large chunk of the world has arbitrary borders drawn by people who had no understanding of the land they were carving up, who had only money in mind when they made those decisions. I think that democracy and the idea of the nation state is not a universally accepted value, nor will it ever be, because the vast majority of the world is not anywhere near developed enough to sustain it.

I think it would be for the best if Africa and the Middle East just dropped the pretense and reverted to tribal kingdoms in many areas; I think it would calm the campaigns of ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram and the various other notorious groups that use extreme violence to prove a point: they don't want Western values. I think we really are on the cusp of World War III; a world war that will be centred around the Middle East and I think that the West will idly watch and do little to intervene until things get much, much worse. You could even argue that it already began a couple of years ago when the situation in Syria started to deteriorate massively - the world is a complete mess right now and the West is too busy taking part in dick measuring competitions with Vladimir Putin to notice. Not that I think that it's even our place to say or do anything - offer humanitarian aid, absolutely, but we as a collective have done a great deal of damage to the world, perhaps we should step back and wait until we're asked to help instead of sticking our noses where they're not wanted once again.

What do you think?

does anything work? its nothing to do with the words white or men either, nor is it really to do with any religions........its rich v poor, its a fight for land power wealth and control. That is ultimately what drives the ambition and the progress and the regress.

tribal kingdoms I don't know enough about, I presume that's the ancient power structure. clearly democracy has more holes than swiss cheese and it works far better for some richer countries than others. western nations can hide behind the so called fight for democracy and then impose 100s of their own leaders and governments, it really is a joke.

whether its tribal kingdoms, republics or constitutional monarchies ...when you have greed and corruption at the top how o you stop the carnage.

In all societies you need someone to be watching someone......take casinos as an analogy...you have the punters, the dealers, the pit bosses watching the dealers and customers, the floor manager watching the pitbulls, the bosses watching the floor managers and te eye in the sky watching them all

in the city, in the billionaires clubs, in the senate, in the war room, who has the power to decide? average joe? who are these people accountable too? to serve the elite. who watches them? who is their eye in the sky? As long as they create an elite to make themselves untouchable theyre pretty much untouchable. and now they haven't even got God to make them feel guilty about it

fight the real power

[Marsh.]

Someone's been on the bitch pills.

[JoshBB]

If we didn't have democracy it would ultimately result in workers' being trampled by corporations and minorities being persecuted. So, no.

[Kizzy]

Religion is the ultimate tool of social control, and if you don't subscribe to it you are seen as undemocratic as democracy is said to have christian values at it's core.
This is unfair.

[Nedusa]

No of course it doesn't work. I mean how can 51% tell 49% what to do even though it is democratic . It's not really is it...?

[Nedusa]

How about a Meritocracy ...

[Kizzy]

What we have is an unofficial oligarchy.

[DemolitionRed]

Sounds right up my street Z, in fact I've just ordered it on Amazon


What do I think about 'democracy'? I believe its an illusion of a clean safe world we want our children to grow up in. Its a place where we believe we have the power to choose; a place where consumerism reigns and debt imprisons us. Our democracy isn't about the freedom of its citizens in the truest sense; its about giving individuals the right to imprison themselves in their own shiny bubbles.

Many of those who speak proudly about living in a democracy will be hitting the shopping malls rather than going to vote!!

[Kizzy]

I posted this yesterday in another thread but it has relevance here too, don't be put off by the title and the fact it's 2hrs long

Skip to the last half hourish.

Youtube video

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Religion is the ultimate tool of social control, and if you don't subscribe to it you are seen as undemocratic as democracy is said to have christian values at it's core.
This is unfair.

complete and utter nonsense. The elite the ambition for power and control, human greed is the ultimate tool of control. This is what drives wars even before religion and after religion. Christianity is about the opposite of what you claimed. Christ preached against the elite , against the lust for greed and power, he fought for the weak the lame and the blind. Mathew preached against greed, they preached against trading in the temples..Christ fought the kings he fought the power. So youre completely wrong.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I posted this yesterday in another thread but it has relevance here too, don't be put off by the title and the fact it's 2hrs long

Skip to the last half hourish.

Youtube video

I did skip to the last 30mins, it was very interesting.

I don't believe his ubuntu society will work for a country, it's fine for a small community, but on a large scale it will fall apart. Also I feel that it's main flaw is that it presumed that all people are good but in reality they're not.

[Kizzy]

Then as a true Christian you must rebel against these people who have taken the word of the lord and manipulated it to subjugate the masses.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

I did skip to the last 30mins, it was very interesting.

I don't believe his ubuntu society will work for a country, it's fine for a small community, but on a large scale it will fall apart. Also I feel that it's main flaw is that it presumed that all people are good but in reality they're not.

Remember the bank of Dave? That worked, in fact it worked that well they put a stop to it.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/s...an-Ranger.html

Ps... now watch the first hour and a half

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Remember the bank of Dave? That worked, in fact it worked that well they put a stop to it.

That's the thing also, the people who want this happier fairer world, well they are up against banks and corporations who have governments, police forces and armies on their side.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Ps... now watch the first hour and a half

I will another time, when I'm not so tired.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

That's the thing also, the people who want this happier fairer world, well they are up against banks and corporations who have governments, police forces and armies on their side.

It's an oppressive business this democracy

[MTVN]

Democracy is neither inherently good nor inherently bad. Like Capitalism. It should not be treated as the most virtuous system or as the end game of civilisation like it often is. It is however a good foundation which befits our country and most of the world. Of course you will ever truly get total democracy where all of society decides on every single decision because that would be ridiculous, but we have utilised the idea of democracy as best we can and integrated it into an effective and efficient way to govern. As much as we like to beat on our own democracy it is the envy of much of the world and is very successful.

Not all countries will agree of course that the Western model is best for them. IMO it's a failure of Western policy that we took the attitude that every other country in the world wants to be like us, even if they don't know it yet. Surely deep down everyone wants a Western style democracy right? But of course they don't. And it's why I'm always wary of global intervention because it carries a certain arrogance that we know best and should impose that on everyone else. Maybe democracy is just not tenable in some countries. In a lot of the Middle East, where nations are melting pots of ethnic and religious tension, it's hard to see how a secular and democratic government can emerge from all that while also trying to keep a lid on it. 'Democracy' carries such saintly connotations in this day that its a hard thing to argue against, but it is not the ultimate and infallible ideal that it can often be made out to be