[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Democracy is neither inherently good nor inherently bad. Like Capitalism. It should not be treated as the most virtuous system or as the end game of civilisation like it often is. It is however a good foundation which befits our country and most of the world. Of course you will ever truly get total democracy where all of society decides on every single decision because that would be ridiculous, but we have utilised the idea of democracy as best we can and integrated it into an effective and efficient way to govern. As much as we like to beat on our own democracy it is the envy of much of the world and is very successful.

Not all countries will agree of course that the Western model is best for them. IMO it's a failure of Western policy that we took the attitude that every other country in the world wants to be like us, even if they don't know it yet. Surely deep down everyone wants a Western style democracy right? But of course they don't. And it's why I'm always wary of global intervention because it carries a certain arrogance that we know best and should impose that on everyone else. Maybe democracy is just not tenable in some countries. In a lot of the Middle East, where nations are melting pots of ethnic and religious tension, it's hard to see how a secular and democratic government can emerge from all that while also trying to keep a lid on it. 'Democracy' carries such saintly connotations in this day that its a hard thing to argue against, but it is not the ultimate and infallible ideal that it can often be made out to be

In the west I believe we have the illusion of democracy, we 'think' we're making at least some of the important decisions regarding our democracy...but we're not it's all a charade.
It's only when you see how we operate in a pincer formation for what we want that you realise we're far removed from the image projected.
Democracy has it's darkside like capitalism right enough, but when you see that rights are being eroded it's not good enough to say 'well it could be worse we could be China'.....but then, we could be China.
And we could have all the issues of the middle east, things could be better but they could also be a lot worse.
Governments the world over have laid claim to every bit of land and all the earths resources, that's not conducive to a happy population as they have nowhere to live and nothing to live off.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Then as a true Christian you must rebel against these people who have taken the word of the lord and manipulated it to subjugate the masses.

I try. Its the nature of evil they use anything and pervert anything to justify their evil deeds. our society is mostly built on Christian principles, however weve allowed so many appalling laws and seemlingly endless petty rules and regulations behind which the rich can hide. the more stupid laws ultimately the more corruption by the elite. and you can see how much they care by their sub human behaviour in parliament.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

In the west I believe we have the illusion of democracy, we 'think' we're making at least some of the important decisions regarding our democracy...but we're not it's all a charade.
It's only when you see how we operate in a pincer formation for what we want that you realise we're far removed from the image projected.
Democracy has it's darkside like capitalism right enough, but when you see that rights are being eroded it's not good enough to say 'well it could be worse we could be China'.....but then, we could be China.
And we could have all the issues of the middle east, things could be better but they could also be a lot worse.
Governments the world over have laid claim to every bit of land and all the earths resources, that's not conducive to a happy population as they have nowhere to live and nothing to live off.

But we do actually make a difference. We decide the biggest issue of all in who governs us, not only that but we extend that right to every British citizen and also to a lot of people who are not here on a permanent basis like international students. We have regular elections at all levels, we have systems of accountability, we have means for the public to get much more involved in politics than they have been before. You could say its not a real democracy because there's only really two parties capable of governing, because we don't get a say on every issue, because politicians lie, they spin things, they go back on promises etc. etc. but those things can never be completely eradicated and it is all about trying to apply the best of democratic ideals in a practical and functional sense. And in general we make a very good job of that. I'm not saying we have no right to ever complain or that our system is perfect because that would be silly. But in general the UK is a decent conciliation of numerous different ideas and interests and we should be glad of that

[the truth]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But we do actually make a difference. We decide the biggest issue of all in who governs us, not only that but we extend that right to every British citizen and also to a lot of people who are not here on a permanent basis like international students. We have regular elections at all levels, we have systems of accountability, we have means for the public to get much more involved in politics than they have been before. You could say its not a real democracy because there's only really two parties capable of governing, because we don't get a say on every issue, because politicians lie, they spin things, they go back on promises etc. etc. but those things can never be completely eradicated and it is all about trying to apply the best of democratic ideals in a practical and functional sense. And in general we make a very good job of that. I'm not saying we have no right to ever complain or that our system is perfect because that would be silly. But in general the UK is a decent conciliation of numerous different ideas and interests and we should be glad of that

sadly voting in absurdly strong seats is a waste of space. engaging in arguments on issues is probably more effective. you can write, speak march etc but local government is what directly affects lives more than parliament and you can influence that far more. the wastefulness is astonishing. our entire system is a joke

[lostalex]

yes.

[Kizzy]

No, you can't march... or protest, that would be an act of civil disobedience

We've had the vote ...well men for longer as it took a while to realise women can be democratic too, for around 100yrs democratic rights were added to via legislation.
However, there have been changes these rights are ever so sneakily, blink and you miss them flying through westminster changes that chip away at civil liberties.
Rights that took years and years to achieve are removed without consultation, how democratic is this?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But we do actually make a difference. We decide the biggest issue of all in who governs us, not only that but we extend that right to every British citizen and also to a lot of people who are not here on a permanent basis like international students. We have regular elections at all levels, we have systems of accountability, we have means for the public to get much more involved in politics than they have been before. You could say its not a real democracy because there's only really two parties capable of governing, because we don't get a say on every issue, because politicians lie, they spin things, they go back on promises etc. etc. but those things can never be completely eradicated and it is all about trying to apply the best of democratic ideals in a practical and functional sense. And in general we make a very good job of that. I'm not saying we have no right to ever complain or that our system is perfect because that would be silly. But in general the UK is a decent conciliation of numerous different ideas and interests and we should be glad of that

Thank GOD for a voice of intellectual reason.

[kirklancaster]

Britain is still a CHRISTIAN DEMOCRACY despite the best efforts of Secular Lefties and others, and of course Democracy is imperfect, and of course Christianity is flawed, and the reason they are so, is that MAN has corrupted the purity of both.

This being so, I for one, will always still elect to live in this Christian democracy any day, than in any of the countries where Communism, Islam, or Dictatorship, is the 'political system'.

Despite the hysterical claims of anti-Christians to the contrary, Christianity is not 'forced' upon any of our citizens – either by the state or by the church, and neither is it forced upon our children in any of our State schools or other centres of learning , and perhaps these anti-Christians are confusing Christian preachers and teachers with their hate-filled Islamic counterparts.

So then, what reason is there to wish to 'destroy' the historical link between Christianity and the State in this country, when the role of the church increasingly has no longer any input into our Constitution?

The answer to the above is that there are NO reasons, and because of this, Christianity-haters remind me of those Islamic Fundamentalist cretins who destroyed the priceless ancient artefacts; the 'Nineveh Winged Bull' and the 'God of Rozhan' in Mosul, Iraq, for no other reason that 'they were there and did not fit in with their own ideology', because Christianity-haters have the same mentality.

As for Democracy, Mario Puzo wrote in 'The Godfather', that; “a lawyer with a briefcase could steal more money than a hundred men with guns” and from politicians to heads of corporations, this is true of all men in authority not just lawyers. Which is exactly why our Democracy has never been, and still isn't, 'perfect'.

Perfect or not, I for one, do not desire to live anywhere else in the world. However, in the knowledge that I have always had that there is; “something rotten in the state of Denmark”, I will continue to use any intelligence and talents that GOD has blessed me with, and utilise any of the many freedoms which this great country has afforded me - including my vote - to try to CHANGE the 'men with briefcases' in Whitehall and Threadneedle Street who corrupt the system, rather than to try and change the system itself.

For the whingers and whiners who do not feel the same, then my personal message is CLEAR;

Do not DARE to try to change this Western Democratic Christian country which the rest of us love – if you do not like living here, then you are FREE to board the next plane to Syria or some other Middle Eastern country, and use what intelligence and talents you have acquired by complete accident and chance via Evolution, to reason with and try to change the 'men with guns' who rule there.

And 'Good Luck' with that.

[Kizzy]

I think it's well established that here is better than other places in the world, nobody is disputing that.
Nobody is suggesting Christianity is done away with, personally I can't see any christian values in the current government... therefore I can only conclude they are using the cover of the KJV which has been advocated by both the PM and the queen as a moral authority.
And in many respects it is, and yet they don't abide by it, it's a case of 'do as I say not as I do'.

The democracy we have at the moment is in a state of flux, as legislation is changed to ensure maximum compliance to the state and if you question the powers that be, demonstrate, protest, then you risk falling foul of the law when doing so.
This democracy is therefore becoming less and less 'perfect'.
“a lawyer with a briefcase could steal more money than a hundred men with guns”
They can, and a politician with a banker can steal much more, perfectly legally...
And the public bail out the banks, and institutions fail in their duty of care aided by the government as in historic abuse cases, and the public are the ones to pay making many a victim twice over.

Some governments are corrupt all the time,
all governments are corrupt some of the time,
But let's just not kid ourselves that ours at the moment couldn't be better, or that they exhibit the virtues they demand because they very much do not.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

No, you can't march... or protest, that would be an act of civil disobedience

We've had the vote ...well men for longer as it took a while to realise women can be democratic too, for around 100yrs democratic rights were added to via legislation.
However, there have been changes these rights are ever so sneakily, blink and you miss them flying through westminster changes that chip away at civil liberties.
Rights that took years and years to achieve are removed without consultation, how democratic is this?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I think it's well established that here is better than other places in the world, nobody is disputing that.
Nobody is suggesting Christianity is done away with, personally I can't see any christian values in the current government... therefore I can only conclude they are using the cover of the KJV which has been advocated by both the PM and the queen as a moral authority.
And in many respects it is, and yet they don't abide by it, it's a case of 'do as I say not as I do'.

The democracy we have at the moment is in a state of flux, as legislation is changed to ensure maximum compliance to the state and if you question the powers that be, demonstrate, protest, then you risk falling foul of the law when doing so.
This democracy is therefore becoming less and less 'perfect'.
“a lawyer with a briefcase could steal more money than a hundred men with guns”
They can, and a politician with a banker can steal much more, perfectly legally...
And the public bail out the banks, and institutions fail in their duty of care aided by the government as in historic abuse cases, and the public are the ones to pay making many a victim twice over.

Some governments are corrupt all the time,
all governments are corrupt some of the time,
But let's just not kid ourselves that ours at the moment couldn't be better, or that they exhibit the virtues they demand because they very much do not.

Whilst I agree with some of the points you raise in this response, I do find other of your points totally redundant.

For example, considering Whitehall is the centre of Government and that Threadneedle Street is the location of The Bank of England, then I think that when I wrote:

1) "that neither Christianity or our Democracy is perfect."

2) "I will continue to use any intelligence and talents that GOD has blessed me with, and utilise any of the many freedoms which this great country has afforded me - including my vote - to try to CHANGE the 'men with briefcases' in Whitehall and Threadneedle Street who corrupt the system"

3) “a lawyer with a briefcase could steal more money than a hundred men with guns” and from politicians to heads of corporations, this is true of all men in authority not just lawyers. Which is exactly why our Democracy has never been, and still isn't, 'perfect'.

renders totally redundant your statements:

1) ...a politician with a banker can steal much more, perfectly legally... "

2) "But let's just not kid ourselves that ours (government) at the moment couldn't be better.."

Further; believe me, that I am not 'kidding' myself (and never have) about any of the corruption which has always been rife in both the Local Governments and Governments of this country in addition to the institutional and historic corruption in our Banking Systems, Judicial System, Benefits and Welfare Systems and Taxation systems, and just about every other system and institution we have.

But I still maintain that the way forward is not to try to replace Christianity as our 'State' Religion, nor to seek to dismantle our Democracy - as some people wish - but to change the people who hold office and have the authority in all our institutions, and to fight the corruption 'en masse until we have men of integrity in such positions.

I genuinely understand the points you make about the stripping away of our historic liberties and rights by stealth, but there is a way to combat and defeat those who are responsible - we did it with the 'Poll Tax' and we can all do it again.

[DemolitionRed]

Nobody has yet mentioned the City of London which is a huge pocket of resistance to democracy. Its an institution that dates back many hundreds of years and its still entrenched in its practices and privileges. It has its own lobbyist who sits next to the Speaker in the House of Commons. Surely if we have a city/corporation which has its own internal vote and carries such huge influence over parliamentary financial decisions, we can't live in a democracy? When it comes to diversifying the British economy towards things like manufacturing and global warming, the City of London digs its heels in.

Chatham House rule over many of the decisions and new policy that is presently made in Parliament and Chatham House btw is all off the record. Its a place where statements, agreements and promises made on behalf of the British people are kept hidden from us.

The last time I looked, there were 134 Tory MPs employed within the financial section of the City and some of those MPs are leading financiers within the City. Lord Brittan, former Conservative home secretary is vice chairman for UBS investment bank and still advises government on trade. Tim Luke, once senior advisor to Cameron is now one of the big guys in Barclays Capital and Ivon Rogers was another senior in Barclays Capital and Citigroup before becoming Cameron's Advisor

The question is, do we really want people like this to have huge political influence? because whilst representing the nation of Britain, their only real interest is protecting their casino operation and their indulgent financial independence.

Until the City of London surrender their economic power over Britain they will remain a stain on British democracy.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Whilst I agree with some of the points you raise in this response, I do find other of your points totally redundant.

For example, considering Whitehall is the centre of Government and that Threadneedle Street is the location of The Bank of England, then I think that when I wrote:

1) "that neither Christianity or our Democracy is perfect."

2) "I will continue to use any intelligence and talents that GOD has blessed me with, and utilise any of the many freedoms which this great country has afforded me - including my vote - to try to CHANGE the 'men with briefcases' in Whitehall and Threadneedle Street who corrupt the system"

3) “a lawyer with a briefcase could steal more money than a hundred men with guns” and from politicians to heads of corporations, this is true of all men in authority not just lawyers. Which is exactly why our Democracy has never been, and still isn't, 'perfect'.

renders totally redundant your statements:

1) ...a politician with a banker can steal much more, perfectly legally... "

2) "But let's just not kid ourselves that ours (government) at the moment couldn't be better.."

Further; believe me, that I am not 'kidding' myself (and never have) about any of the corruption which has always been rife in both the Local Governments and Governments of this country in addition to the institutional and historic corruption in our Banking Systems, Judicial System, Benefits and Welfare Systems and Taxation systems, and just about every other system and institution we have.

But I still maintain that the way forward is not to try to replace Christianity as our 'State' Religion, nor to seek to dismantle our Democracy - as some people wish - but to change the people who hold office and have the authority in all our institutions, and to fight the corruption 'en masse until we have men of integrity in such positions.

I genuinely understand the points you make about the stripping away of our historic liberties and rights by stealth, but there is a way to combat and defeat those who are responsible - we did it with the 'Poll Tax' and we can all do it again.

Whilst you labour to attempt to define my opinion as redundant may I remind you that it is simply my opinion and you are under no obligation to agree to it.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Nobody has yet mentioned the City of London which is a huge pocket of resistance to democracy. Its an institution that dates back many hundreds of years and its still entrenched in its practices and privileges. It has its own lobbyist who sits next to the Speaker in the House of Commons. Surely if we have a city/corporation which has its own internal vote and carries such huge influence over parliamentary financial decisions, we can't live in a democracy? When it comes to diversifying the British economy towards things like manufacturing and global warming, the City of London digs its heels in.

Chatham House rule over many of the decisions and new policy that is presently made in Parliament and Chatham House btw is all off the record. Its a place where statements, agreements and promises made on behalf of the British people are kept hidden from us.

The last time I looked, there were 134 Tory MPs employed within the financial section of the City and some of those MPs are leading financiers within the City. Lord Brittan, former Conservative home secretary is vice chairman for UBS investment bank and still advises government on trade. Tim Luke, once senior advisor to Cameron is now one of the big guys in Barclays Capital and Ivon Rogers was another senior in Barclays Capital and Citigroup before becoming Cameron's Advisor

The question is, do we really want people like this to have huge political influence? because whilst representing the nation of Britain, their only real interest is protecting their casino operation and their indulgent financial independence.

Until the City of London surrender their economic power over Britain they will remain a stain on British democracy.

Well well, never a chance of any democratic vote if a significant percentage the MPs and the lords are stool pigeons for the banks. They'll block any legislation due to a conflict of interest how ethical is that in a democracy?

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Well well, never a chance of any democratic vote if a significant percentage the MPs and the lords are stool pigeons for the banks. They'll block any legislation due to a conflict of interest how ethical is that in a democracy?

Exactly. The saying, "better the devil you know than the devil you don't" is just not true when it comes to democracy!

[Niamh.]

What would the alternative be though for this side of the world?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Whilst you labour to attempt to define my opinion as redundant may I remind you that it is simply my opinion and you are under no obligation to agree to it.

No, you obviously labour to understand my posts - despite the lucidity with which I write.

I clearly did not attempt to define your post or your opinion as redundant - merely the relevant parts of it which clearly were, and which I clearly defined. The rest of your post I actually said that I "agreed with" and "genuinely understood" and I even underscored the word genuinely.

I only took you off my ignore list because despite us agreeing to ignore each other's posts you breached that agreement by responding to one of my posts and obviously addressing that response to me, even though you did not use my name. What's more, my post which you responded to was neither directly addressed to, or directed at you - and still I answered your response very civilly and with clarity as I always do, but already you are starting again with the misrepresentation and the thinly veiled edge in your response so I see that taking you off my ignore list was a great mistake.

Now before you report this innocuous and reasoned response and have it removed - I will ask you again not to respond to my posts and quote them and to please put me on your ignore list and I will immediately put you back on mine.

Thank you.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

What would the alternative be though for this side of the world?

You saved me asking the identical question Niamh. I am eager to read the answer.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

No, you obviously labour to understand my posts - despite the lucidity with which I write.

I clearly did not attempt to define your post or your opinion as redundant - merely the relevant parts of it which clearly were, and which I clearly defined. The rest of your post I actually said that I "agreed with" and "genuinely understood" and I even underscored the word genuinely.

I only took you off my ignore list because despite us agreeing to ignore each other's posts you breached that agreement by responding to one of my posts and obviously addressing that response to me, even though you did not use my name. What's more, my post which you responded to was neither directly addressed to, or directed at you - and still I answered your response very civilly and with clarity as I always do, but already you are starting again with the misrepresentation and the thinly veiled edge in your response so I see that taking you off my ignore list was a great mistake.

Now before you report this innocuous and reasoned response and have it removed - I will ask you again not to respond to my posts and quote them and to please put me on your ignore list and I will immediately put you back on mine.

Thank you.

Kirk, Kizzy didn't quote your post (so i don't know how you saw her post if you had her on ignore?) But even if she had, this is the serious debate section, everyone is perfectly entitled to quote anyone they wish, if they want to make a point. You of course, are under no obligation to respond to that post.

[bitontheslide]

Democracy is just a vision that counties aspire to. There is not a single country in the world that truely practices democracy. Among the worst offenders are the USA and UK who maintain they have wonderful democracies when they are nothing of the sort.

Democracy is a matter of degree. Each country practices democracy as it best fits their needs and objectives. It truely angers me when the USA and UK set themselves up as the standard bearers of democracy when their corruption is hidden from view. At least with the likes of Russia, there is no pretence, everyone knows what they are dealing with.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Kirk, Kizzy didn't quote your post (so i don't know how you saw her post if you had her on ignore?) But even if she had, this is the serious debate section, everyone is perfectly entitled to quote anyone they wish, if they want to make a point. You of course, are under no obligation to respond to that post.

Thank you Niamh.

I often browse Tibb without logging in and that's when I saw Kizzy's post which clearly - because of what she writes and comments upon - was a response to my post. She did actually quote directly from my post with "Lawyers with briefcases etc", and the fact that I posted at 8.43 am and then Kizzy posted directly after my post at 9.16 am is also telling.

But the above is not the problem Niamh. What is the problem is that although I responded to Kizzy's response, civilly and reasonably, her reply was nothing more than a deliberate misrepresentation of my response and that very thing is what caused most of the trouble between us before - something I do not wish to undergo again.

Anyone checking what I wrote against what Kizzy alleges what I wrote will clearly see just what I am talking about.

I realise that this is the Serious Debate section Niamh and that everyone is perfectly entitled to quote anyone they wish, if they want to make a point, but continual misrepresentation of what one has said in a post is not debate at all, and neither is it fair.

As for me being under no obligation to respond to that post, I am compelled to respond to any post which misrepresents what I have said, if only to redress the misrepresentation, because no one likes to be falsely quoted - especially on a Serious Debate section.

Anyway, I am not falling out with anyone, merely politely and reasonably requesting someone who seems incapable of understanding what I write and who therefore continually misrepresents me, to please put me on her ignore list and refrain from quoting my posts in the interests of forum harmony and I will reciprocate.

I do not believe that I am asking too much or that I am wrong to ask.

[Kizzy]

I used 1 sentence from your post as a point of reference, if you don't like it that's your issue.
As said if it is used in context with the subject there should be no problem with me doing this, if you want to ignore me that's fine.
I will continue to comment on the topic as I see fit.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

What would the alternative be though for this side of the world?

Good question! Its wise to take notice of history because nothing is ever permanent. Change doesn't happen through good will and generosity but through struggle and sacrifice, but as far as our illusionary democracy where hundreds and thousands of people have to queue to eat food from food banks or live under the shame of not having work and being on benefits, they are not yet ready for the fight.

Its shameful to think that over a thousand individuals worth over £500 billion have such huge influence on how British society is structured. The biggest fear for ruling class Britain is a revolution and this is why political marches are so heavily constrained. A democratic revolution is long overdue.

Britain should be a country run by the people who keep it ticking and not by those with the wealthiest backers. A true democracy is possible but only if a broad enough section of our society become confident enough and inspired enough about its realization.

[Niamh.]

Kirk, your post is still there so it really doesn't matter whether or not you feel like someone has misrepresented what you wrote or not, everyone can read your post for themselves, they don't need to just take Kizzys (or whoevers) word for it. Again if you don't want to interact with a forum member, don't reply to their posts, if you feel their posts are baiting or breaking forum rules, then report it. Simple.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Good question! Its wise to take notice of history because nothing is ever permanent. Change doesn't happen through good will and generosity but through struggle and sacrifice, but as far as our illusionary democracy where hundreds and thousands of people have to queue to eat food from food banks or live under the shame of not having work and being on benefits, they are not yet ready for the fight.

Its shameful to think that over a thousand individuals worth over £500 billion have such huge influence on how British society is structured. The biggest fear for ruling class Britain is a revolution and this is why political marches are so heavily constrained. A democratic revolution is long overdue.

Britain should be a country run by the people who keep it ticking and not by those with the wealthiest backers. A true democracy is possible but only if a broad enough section of our society become confident enough and inspired enough about its realization.

mmhhmm I totally agree with all that DR. Could Russell Brand be the man to inspire and lead this revolution? I love the Trews