[joeysteele]

Well Tony Benn was in my view a great politician who I read loads about, who always wanted out of the then Common Market and then the EU afterwards, in fact he never likely wanted to go in at all.

In fact I understand a good many of my own Family back in 1975, voted to leave at that time but will now be voting to stay in.
Tony Benn I'm sure would be making a case for leaving still,his son Hilary however is helping in making the case for Staying in.

It is 40 years on now from the last vote, at that time, we had only been in around 2 years, this,for me now, is a vastly different time and vote now,with some gains to be made from leaving, I agree,for me though, far more to lose now.

In 1975 however,after only being in a short time,reverting back then to what we had before would have been a far easier prospect.
Leaving was rejected then by the voters and I hope for a repeat of this that time too.

Odd how when Tony Benn was advocating getting out of Europe in the early 1980s, he was branded by Conservatives a lunatic and by their press as one of the most dangerous men in Britain.

[T*]

I want out

[Vicky.]

Undecided tbh.

[Northern Monkey]

For me Cameron did'nt get everything he asked for and did'nt ask for enough.It is not a reformed EU by any stretch.Camerons "I want to be part of a reformed EU" has failed.

[smudgie]

Initially I was in, then I was leaning towards out, now I am totally undecided.
Hopefully somewhere along the next 4 months I will make my mind up.
I will be listening to what the farmers say as well as the politicians,

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Initially I was in, then I was leaning towards out, now I am totally undecided.
Hopefully somewhere along the next 4 months I will make my mind up.
I will be listening to what the farmers say as well as the politicians,

Small holding farmers have been fleeced by the EU but what's to say those huge subsidies the Lords, Ladies and large estate owners presently get, wouldn't continue if we leave the EU?

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Small holding farmers have been fleeced by the EU but what's to say those huge subsidies the Lords, Ladies and large estate owners presently get, wouldn't continue if we leave the EU?

NFU were on yesterday, mentioned a little about the pro's and cons.
I will see what the locals have to say about it.
Funny enough hubby's cousin is a gentleman farmer..I doubt he will have anything to say to us though.

[kirklancaster]

Perhaps some 'In' supporters would like to enlighten me in simple one liners just WHAT benefits we have had from the EU over the past 40 years?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Perhaps some 'In' supporters would like to enlighten me in simple one liners just WHAT benefits we have had from the EU over the past 40 years?

Here you go.
http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=157

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Perhaps some 'In' supporters would like to enlighten me in simple one liners just WHAT benefits we have had from the EU over the past 40 years?

its given us something to moan about for 40 years

[Kizzy]

Ah well if we leave the EU we can all moan about having no rights or TTIP or whatever.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Initially I was in, then I was leaning towards out, now I am totally undecided.
Hopefully somewhere along the next 4 months I will make my mind up.
I will be listening to what the farmers say as well as the politicians,

This is me ^

Rock... Me...Hardplace

[DemolitionRed]

Why the hell does Farage speak to us like he's speaking to a nursery school class? Its speeches like that, that really piss me off. He just mutters fairytales and doesn't talk about the possibilities and likelihoods like Woodford: https://woodfordfunds.com/economic-i...uring-industry

Here's a final paragraph from that link.

“In addition, falling tariffs, the decline in manufacturing and Europe’s diminishing importance in the global economy mean we doubt that even the absence of a trade deal with the European Union would hurt the United Kingdom’s overall exports materially. The benefits of being in the European Union are smaller than they were a few decades ago, when a Brexit would have been a far bigger deal. However, the effects will vary across sectors. Brexit would give Britain a crucial opportunity by allowing it to broker its own trade deals with non-European Union countries; indeed Britain could even have a unilateral free trade policy. Non-European Union countries may find negotiating with Britain easier and quicker than dealing with the European Union’s bureaucratic machine, as Switzerland has shown.”

[Kizzy]

And movement, does he address freedom of movement? I thought that would be the first issue he clarified...

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Perhaps some 'In' supporters would like to enlighten me in simple one liners just WHAT benefits we have had from the EU over the past 40 years?

I will be happy too once those who say come out actually list the full guarantees the UK would have for sure in the future,as to if we hit financial difficulty, as to totally 100% cast iron trade deals that will be lucrative.
When they can guarantee that and more across the board and for sure substantiate the UK is safer out of the EU,in light of what those concerned with defence past and present have said today.
When we get explained in full such guarantees then I for one will look at that and listen and take on board what I can as I always have at times on here anyway in the past.

However,what the 'in' people would present as benefits would be dismissed totally by the 'out for certain' people anyway so we would be likely wasting our time just as the out people would likely be on the certain 'in' people too,with no full guarantees.

I however believe as to social justice the EU has improved things in the UK,workers rights too and also I still think many times economically, we could have been in difficulties more out of the EU rather than in it
I believe in Nations coming together not moving apart,especially now at this time too,so I fully support the closer and closer ties to the rest of Europe.
I feel we are greatly more safe and ready to deal with international problems, from being within the EU, rather than out of it.

I accept there is a lot wrong with the EU,I do however now believe that PM Cameron has won a pretty good deal overall, one that 'I think', I don't know for sure, will lead to reform and better conditions within the EU in the future.
I think he has lit a match,that will light up many other changes to come that will be for the better for all in the long term inside the EU.

Even with all its faults, and there are many.
I know for sure where we are now in the EU and where it may go in the future, I know we never have to worry about trying to win trade deals as we already have them. I know we never have to worry about any more treaties from the EU as any new treaty will have to be put to the UK in a referendum before any PM can sign it.

So I see exactly where we are, and where we are going if we stay in, some good, some fair and some bad but at least I know.
What I don't know for sure is what will really happen as to the UK,if it comes out, what trade deals will we get, what costs and conditions will those deals bring with them.
I hear nothing about that at all from the 'out' people,and therefore for me,with nothing really guaranteed or even being able to be spelled out as to life outside the EU for the UK, well I am not prepared to take the Country I was born in, into an unknown, and not only risk its future but also the future of those who are the youngest of the UK and who will be the UKs future eventually.

So that's a bit of why I support being in the EU and if the 'out' camps cannot give full guarantees of what will be the 'real' case for the UK across the board out of the EU, well without that I would only suggest any undecided think carefully before jumping out the boat, when they can only have at best little, and even maybe no idea how deep the water is when they do.

That is not a risk I am prepared to take and I also believe after 40 years in Europe connected by trade and all that has come in those decades.
After Cameron's hard work, yes hard work in my view over the last week, we must be able to now do and achieve much more and even better from within it as a full member, than out of it.

Now can the 'out' people list the full 100% guarantees of how much better the UK 'will' be, not 'may' be outside the EU.
Because that is what the undecided need to be told and guaranteed too.
Never mind challenging the 'in' crowd,let's have some concrete and fully substantiated guarantees from the 'out' crowd.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by wannashag

Is it possible that Nigel Farage will go down in the history books as a British Hero?

I understand that's hard for some people to believe right now.

Youtube video

No, not for me he won't. I do admire his sincerity and even his principles but think most of them are wrong,for me anyway.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by smudgie

NFU were on yesterday, mentioned a little about the pro's and cons.
I will see what the locals have to say about it.
Funny enough hubby's cousin is a gentleman farmer..I doubt he will have anything to say to us though.

I went to an EU debate a few months back where the Deputy President of the NFU was involved, she was pretty non-committal tbf but seemed to veer more towards Remain because of the risks and uncertainty of what Brexit would look like and what it would mean

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I went to an EU debate a few months back where the Deputy President of the NFU was involved, she was pretty non-committal tbf but seemed to veer more towards Remain because of the risks and uncertainty of what Brexit would look like and what it would mean

It really interests me in what they have to say about it, I know that the farmers have had a couple of bad years and are expecting the same from this year, but that can steer them towards staying in with the compensation scheme on offer.
One thing is for sure, we are in for an interesting 4 months or so, the politics shows will be going into overdrive. No doubt TIBB will be the same.

[DemolitionRed]

Thanks wannashag.
OMG he's had the same speech coach as Cameron hasn't he?!. He uses the same quotes, the same pauses and the same inflections. The only difference between him and Cameron is, he says 'er' just a bit too often!

Interesting what he said about the US trade representative, Michael Froman. Doesn't that frighten you? it does me.

Anyway, just for good measure, its worth repeating:
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know.
There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.
Donald Rumsfeld

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I went to an EU debate a few months back where the Deputy President of the NFU was involved, she was pretty non-committal tbf but seemed to veer more towards Remain because of the risks and uncertainty of what Brexit would look like and what it would mean

I remember you saying. Its really worth attending such debates if you can because you get a lot more out of them than anything you can read online.

Is this a load of hype or an important part of future history we are living through?

[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=joeysteele;8532424]It was out of etiquette and respect that Cameron went to all the other Nations to sound them out on what he was hoping to get.
Duty called he had to do that.

It had NOTHING to do with 'Duty', 'etiquette' or 'respect' and everything to do with BEING SEEN to act out a plan hatched behind closed doors - a plan which would appease the Great British Public by convincing them that when Cameron subsequently had his 'Brussels Dinner Date' he had pulled off a coup and a victory.

"I have no liking for the man as a politician but I think you are unfair to say he grovelled,he did the opposite, even they described him in the end as a tough negotiator.
I'd agree with that on this."

I have - as you all know - been supportive of Cameron and a lot of Tory policies on here, so I have no personal axe to grind in criticising Cameron now. He is wrong. He is being as corrupt and deceitful on this as Heath and Blair were concerning the TRUTH about the EU, and when you say that; "even they described him in the end as a tough negotiator" - well, 'THEY' WOULD describe him as a 'tough negotiator' wouldn't they, because it is part of the ruse to convince the GBP that his 'non-victories' were 'hard fought' and therefore genuine.

"He could have easily got up and said, right, the UK will not go for what you are offering and then leave it at that.
he didn't he stood his ground and 'forced, yes forced a deal from them in the end, not by grovelling but by real debate and compromise."

There is absolutely NO WAY that Cameron could have "easily got up and said, right, the UK will not go for what you are offering and then leave it at that." because THEN that considerable majority of the Great British Public which consists of Eurosceptics and 'Don't Knows' would have SEEN him come away TOTALLY empty handed after being SNUBBED, and thus the Eurosceptic stance would have been justified and the 'Don't Knows' would have become 'OUT' voters because they would have seen the REAL status quo of just WHO HOLDS THE POWER over this country, which is BRUSSELS and NOT our own PRIME MINISTER.

Such a scenario was NEVER going to be allowed to happen because the EU NEEDS the UK - we DO NOT NEED THE EU and NEVER HAVE - and a handful of nothing convinces where nothing in the hand does not. Cameron won NO concessions from his 'Dinner Date', just 'Letters of Intent' and 'IOU's' - all mere promises to consider and none legally binding, but all carefully calculated to hoodwink the British public and convert the 'Don't Knows' to the EU cause.

"It is not about being right or left on here voting one way or another,many Conservative voters will vote to stay in, even some Lib Dems,what is left of them, may vote to come out.
Nothing left or right about the issue,just a serious choice to make and I know and have explained why I have made mine without getting at people on the left, right or centre for any reason."


You really do need to calm down Joey - I was not 'getting at the 'Left' or anyone else when I said that I was surprised to see 'Left leaning' and 'Labour Supporters' voting to remain 'IN'.

I meant EXACTLY what I wrote, that I was surprised by it, and I am surprised by it because the REAL EU is the total antithesis of Socialism, is the ultimate exponent of Neo-Liberalism, and is wholly hegemonic.

Much has been written about the proposals within the EU for the so-called 'Robin Hood Tax' or 'Tobin Tax' which is yet another ploy by our greedy Brussels Overlords to get its grubby corrupt little hands on even more of our money, but very little said about what I call the 'Sheriff of Nottingham Tax', which is the very raison d'etre of the EU, and the reason that the abhorrent Ted Heath LIED to the British Public and took us into the 'Common Market' in the first place - after much gerrymandering and scheming behind closed doors.

The EU is the ultimate ROB THE POOR and GIVE TO THE SUPER RICH organisation. It is a 40 year old CON perpetrated against the UK people - a legitimate 'MONEY LAUNDERING' scam.

Nigel Farage stated CORRECTLY that the UK GROSS payment to our Brussels overlords is £20 BILLION POUNDS per YEAR - or £55 MILLION POUNDS EACH AND EVERY DAY.

After rebates and other 'returns', this figure is reduced to £12 BILLION POUNDS per year - or £33 MILLION POUNDS NET PAYMENT EACH AND EVERY DAY.

This payment is collected from the taxes of ALL working UK citizens - REGARDLESS of their ability to AFFORD it.

40 years of paying £55 million pounds each and every day - or the equivalent amount in past years.

But WHO REALLY BENEFITS from the rebates?

The HARD PRESSED STRUGGLING lower paid working classes?
The SME's - Small to Medium Size Enterprises and Self-Employed?
Small Farmers?

Or THE GIANT MULTI-NATIONAL CORPORATIONS and SUPER RICH LANDOWNERS?

The TRUTH is out there.

And just as a footnote to endorse what I say above, the FLOODGATES are OPEN:

UK is being forced to pay back up to £43 BILLION in tax to giant companies...thanks (surprise, surprise) to EU courts
Major corporations have been awarded hundreds of millions of pounds
Dozens of firms are contesting UK tax payments dating back to 1973
Companies including Marks & Spencer and Ford have fought HMRC
British American Tobacco was given £620million after EU court ruling


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz419Wp6Fsl

[joeysteele]

Well anything you join in the main you pay more in than you get out, a football fan with a season ticket pays in loads every year and often gets little in the way of much back, as to team performances.
Not the best comparison but any club or association anyone joins that has a fee, you will be paying in funds to have that privilege.

I really cannot agree with your breakdown Kirk of my points which I knew would be just dismissed anyway by you, as I even actually inferred in my reply post to you.

I really do consider Cameron did do a good deal,I do also believe he could have got frustrated and just walked away,it may have been had he done so, the EU would have asked him back to do the deal then, however he fought to get it and I do applaud him for that.
With respect you maybe see no good as to Cameron's efforts here because he has come down on the staying in side.

Had he walked away and it was clear EU leaders had not been willing to budge, although disappointed,I would have accepted he still tried his best on this.
You and I for 2 people,are not going to agree because all you want to do is likely leave the EU no matter what the PM had likely achieved too and no matter what anyone else says.
I on the opposite side to you rigidly want to stay in because I 100% believe our future in the UK is better assured in that strong grouping of Nations.

Also with respect, in your reply above I see nothing from you that assures me of the UKs future out of the EU being better,what you list is the old arguments of paying in more than we get out.
However in very bad examples, there are many things I am a member of which I have to pay to be in and get no funding back.

Security, an assured economic future,social issues and workers rights etc.I could go on but this post would run into masses of pages,they are things that matter to me and I am one who believes in the EU they are best served even at membership cost.

Also really, you think he didn't need to go to all the Nations of the UK on this,anybody going to negotiate a better deal needs to sound out the people they need to convince of the need for one,I find it astonishing you say he didn't need to or should not have.
Of course it was etiquette and duty to go and sound all the Nations out,I for sure would have.
had he not done so, any deal could have been scuppered anyway by assuming arrogance the EU Nations were all just going to agree with his plans anyway.

I still don't get why you always seem dismayed at the actions of those on the left as to staying in, while at the same time seemingly not surprised at all by any of the actions of those on the right, either voting in or out.
You always seem to have to make a point in a negative way as to those on the left and what they say and intend to do,balance things with right and left then no problem,however it seems you have no problem at all with the right no matter their intentions or actions or comments.

That is why I again raised it as I have with you many times before,Also by the way,I am perfectly calm too thank you.

You still in your post gave,in my opinion, none of the guarantees needed to take a walk out of the EU for good, I saw nothing in your post that indicated apart from being better off for a short while maybe in some way before any new trading deals were negotiated
that would convince me that anyone in politics even has a secure and prepared plan for what we do if we vote to leave.
I know for sure labour hasn't and doubt anyone else has too,according to UKIP once the paying money to the EU is done and we can then control immigration more, we will be in a state of Utopia.
That is a world away from how I see things in the really big picture.

That to me is like people setting out on a journey and having little or no idea where they are supposed to be even going.
In such a scenario, for me, if that's the case and the out people cannot tell us what exactly the guarantees are for the security and future of the UK out of the EU.
Then not risking setting out on such a journey in the first place is what appeals to me,I will vote to stay where I know what the future looks like and where I am at present thank you.
I would also be doing so whether I was on the right or on the left of politics,which I think is irrelevant anyway personally.

[Northern Monkey]

[QUOTE=kirklancaster;8534709]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

It was out of etiquette and respect that Cameron went to all the other Nations to sound them out on what he was hoping to get.
Duty called he had to do that.

It had NOTHING to do with 'Duty', 'etiquette' or 'respect' and everything to do with BEING SEEN to act out a plan hatched behind closed doors - a plan which would appease the Great British Public by convincing them that when Cameron subsequently had his 'Brussels Dinner Date' he had pulled off a coup and a victory.

"I have no liking for the man as a politician but I think you are unfair to say he grovelled,he did the opposite, even they described him in the end as a tough negotiator.
I'd agree with that on this."

I have - as you all know - been supportive of Cameron and a lot of Tory policies on here, so I have no personal axe to grind in criticising Cameron now. He is wrong. He is being as corrupt and deceitful on this as Heath and Blair were concerning the TRUTH about the EU, and when you say that; "even they described him in the end as a tough negotiator" - well, 'THEY' WOULD describe him as a 'tough negotiator' wouldn't they, because it is part of the ruse to convince the GBP that his 'non-victories' were 'hard fought' and therefore genuine.

"He could have easily got up and said, right, the UK will not go for what you are offering and then leave it at that.
he didn't he stood his ground and 'forced, yes forced a deal from them in the end, not by grovelling but by real debate and compromise."

There is absolutely NO WAY that Cameron could have "easily got up and said, right, the UK will not go for what you are offering and then leave it at that." because THEN that considerable majority of the Great British Public which consists of Eurosceptics and 'Don't Knows' would have SEEN him come away TOTALLY empty handed after being SNUBBED, and thus the Eurosceptic stance would have been justified and the 'Don't Knows' would have become 'OUT' voters because they would have seen the REAL status quo of just WHO HOLDS THE POWER over this country, which is BRUSSELS and NOT our own PRIME MINISTER.

Such a scenario was NEVER going to be allowed to happen because the EU NEEDS the UK - we DO NOT NEED THE EU and NEVER HAVE - and a handful of nothing convinces where nothing in the hand does not. Cameron won NO concessions from his 'Dinner Date', just 'Letters of Intent' and 'IOU's' - all mere promises to consider and none legally binding, but all carefully calculated to hoodwink the British public and convert the 'Don't Knows' to the EU cause.

"It is not about being right or left on here voting one way or another,many Conservative voters will vote to stay in, even some Lib Dems,what is left of them, may vote to come out.
Nothing left or right about the issue,just a serious choice to make and I know and have explained why I have made mine without getting at people on the left, right or centre for any reason."


You really do need to calm down Joey - I was not 'getting at the 'Left' or anyone else when I said that I was surprised to see 'Left leaning' and 'Labour Supporters' voting to remain 'IN'.

I meant EXACTLY what I wrote, that I was surprised by it, and I am surprised by it because the REAL EU is the total antithesis of Socialism, is the ultimate exponent of Neo-Liberalism, and is wholly hegemonic.

Much has been written about the proposals within the EU for the so-called 'Robin Hood Tax' or 'Tobin Tax' which is yet another ploy by our greedy Brussels Overlords to get its grubby corrupt little hands on even more of our money, but very little said about what I call the 'Sheriff of Nottingham Tax', which is the very raison d'etre of the EU, and the reason that the abhorrent Ted Heath LIED to the British Public and took us into the 'Common Market' in the first place - after much gerrymandering and scheming behind closed doors.

The EU is the ultimate ROB THE POOR and GIVE TO THE SUPER RICH organisation. It is a 40 year old CON perpetrated against the UK people - a legitimate 'MONEY LAUNDERING' scam.

Nigel Farage stated CORRECTLY that the UK GROSS payment to our Brussels overlords is £20 BILLION POUNDS per YEAR - or £55 MILLION POUNDS EACH AND EVERY DAY.

After rebates and other 'returns', this figure is reduced to £12 BILLION POUNDS per year - or £33 MILLION POUNDS NET PAYMENT EACH AND EVERY DAY.

This payment is collected from the taxes of ALL working UK citizens - REGARDLESS of their ability to AFFORD it.

40 years of paying £55 million pounds each and every day - or the equivalent amount in past years.

But WHO REALLY BENEFITS from the rebates?

The HARD PRESSED STRUGGLING lower paid working classes?
The SME's - Small to Medium Size Enterprises and Self-Employed?
Small Farmers?

Or THE GIANT MULTI-NATIONAL CORPORATIONS and SUPER RICH LANDOWNERS?

The TRUTH is out there.

And just as a footnote to endorse what I say above, the FLOODGATES are OPEN:

UK is being forced to pay back up to £43 BILLION in tax to giant companies...thanks (surprise, surprise) to EU courts
Major corporations have been awarded hundreds of millions of pounds
Dozens of firms are contesting UK tax payments dating back to 1973
Companies including Marks & Spencer and Ford have fought HMRC
British American Tobacco was given £620million after EU court ruling


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz419Wp6Fsl

Excellent summary of things i could'nt remember/could'nt be arsed to type out but have read and heard before and why i am firmly OUT.
Very good post.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Well anything you join in the main you pay more in than you get out, a football fan with a season ticket pays in loads every year and often gets little in the way of much back, as to team performances.
Not the best comparison but any club or association anyone joins that has a fee, you will be paying in funds to have that privilege.

I really cannot agree with your breakdown Kirk of my points which I knew would be just dismissed anyway by you, as I even actually inferred in my reply post to you.

I really do consider Cameron did do a good deal,I do also believe he could have got frustrated and just walked away,it may have been had he done so, the EU would have asked him back to do the deal then, however he fought to get it and I do applaud him for that.
With respect you maybe see no good as to Cameron's efforts here because he has come down on the staying in side.

Had he walked away and it was clear EU leaders had not been willing to budge, although disappointed,I would have accepted he still tried his best on this.
You and I for 2 people,are not going to agree because all you want to do is likely leave the EU no matter what the PM had likely achieved too and no matter what anyone else says.
I on the opposite side to you rigidly want to stay in because I 100% believe our future in the UK is better assured in that strong grouping of Nations.

Also with respect, in your reply above I see nothing from you that assures me of the UKs future out of the EU being better,what you list is the old arguments of paying in more than we get out.
However in very bad examples, there are many things I am a member of which I have to pay to be in and get no funding back.

Security, an assured economic future,social issues and workers rights etc.I could go on but this post would run into masses of pages,they are things that matter to me and I am one who believes in the EU they are best served even at membership cost.

Also really, you think he didn't need to go to all the Nations of the UK on this,anybody going to negotiate a better deal needs to sound out the people they need to convince of the need for one,I find it astonishing you say he didn't need to or should not have.
Of course it was etiquette and duty to go and sound all the Nations out,I for sure would have.
had he not done so, any deal could have been scuppered anyway by assuming arrogance the EU Nations were all just going to agree with his plans anyway.

I still don't get why you always seem dismayed at the actions of those on the left as to staying in, while at the same time seemingly not surprised at all by any of the actions of those on the right, either voting in or out.
You always seem to have to make a point in a negative way as to those on the left and what they say and intend to do,balance things with right and left then no problem,however it seems you have no problem at all with the right no matter their intentions or actions or comments.

That is why I again raised it as I have with you many times before,Also by the way,I am perfectly calm too thank you.

You still in your post gave,in my opinion, none of the guarantees needed to take a walk out of the EU for good, I saw nothing in your post that indicated apart from being better off for a short while maybe in some way before any new trading deals were negotiated
that would convince me that anyone in politics even has a secure and prepared plan for what we do if we vote to leave.
I know for sure labour hasn't and doubt anyone else has too,according to UKIP once the paying money to the EU is done and we can then control immigration more, we will be in a state of Utopia.
That is a world away from how I see things in the really big picture.

That to me is like people setting out on a journey and having little or no idea where they are supposed to be even going.
In such a scenario, for me, if that's the case and the out people cannot tell us what exactly the guarantees are for the security and future of the UK out of the EU.
Then not risking setting out on such a journey in the first place is what appeals to me,I will vote to stay where I know what the future looks like and where I am at present thank you.
I would also be doing so whether I was on the right or on the left of politics,which I think is irrelevant anyway personally.

I would say from the interviews i've seen with other EU politicians who seemed quite relaxed and at ease with everything Cameron asked for(not much at all).Cameron basically sat down and had a good old chinwag with them and they said 'right then what can we do to get the British public to think i'm actually coming home with something meaningful'.
Also as to knowing what the future holds within the EU.We know absolutely nothing.From what i can see just more and more erosion of democracy.
The 'deal' Cameron brought back were just as Kirk said IOU's which mean nothing and no treaty changes.The EU don't actually have to honour any of it if they so choose and what he did ask for was barely the tip of the iceberg of the real issues and he did'nt even get the things he asked for in full.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

[

I said that I was surprised to see 'Left leaning' and 'Labour Supporters' voting to remain 'IN'.

There’s little doubt that the EU is deeply flawed and I don’t believe for a moment that Cameron has or wants to change equal rights for his labor market. The entire structure of the EU was to create a massive bias of capital and Camerons mission in Brussels was more about the rights and privileges for the City of London and not the Britain he governs.

I don’t yet see though, how we are going to be better off by leaving the EU. Whilst we may feel constrained now, I’m fairly sure that an economic utopia isn’t waiting around the corner for a stand alone Britain. We won’t be pulling out of just one union, almost certainly we will be pulling out of two because Scotland has already voiced its reaction to Brexit and if Scotland becomes independent of Britain, then Whales, who have resentfully felt exclusion for many years, may decide to follow. Breaking away from the union could greatly reduce the size of Britain in years to come.

Can a stand alone Britain continue to fight multinational tax evasion like the EU has? Would our cost of imports rise to unaffordable levels? Will British government suddenly sit up and fight for the working mans inequalities? Will inequality rise further? Would we turn our backs on climate change (something close to my heart and something the EU has vehemently fought for)? Would our voting rights remain as they are now? Would we lose more of our civil liberties? Our freedom of speech? Our working rights?. None of this is being debated by people like Farage and Johnson. All we get is the predicted honeymoon which is all based on nothing more than a guess and an excited frenzy of Brexit supporters.

I wouldn’t dispute that the EU is anti many of the things I stand for. Its anti democracy, anti working class and anti re-nationalization but it has brought us into the 20th century a rich and prosperous country; there’s absolutely no doubt the EU has afforded us a respectable place on the world map…So until the out MP’s can allow us to make informed decisions, all we can do is speculate what Brexit might look like.

I'm not sure I want to sit in a lone country run by neo-liberal thinkers like Cameron, Johnson or Farage and I'm sure you don't want to sit in a lone country run by left of the left Corbyn, but you may find yourself in that very place.

Nigel Farage stated CORRECTLY that the UK GROSS payment to our Brussels overlords is £20 BILLION POUNDS per YEAR - or £55 MILLION POUNDS EACH AND EVERY DAY.

After rebates and other 'returns', this figure is reduced to £12 BILLION POUNDS per year - or £33 MILLION POUNDS NET PAYMENT EACH AND EVERY DAY.


40 years of paying £55 million pounds each and every day - or the equivalent amount in past years.

But WHO REALLY BENEFITS from the rebates?

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...-bored-cost-uk This site gives the last released treasury report and where the rebates go.

Farage keeps giving out gross figures which is misleading. Why doesn't he just give out net figures and fully inform us of the deductions?