[the truth]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I think if it was'nt for us being in the EU and having an open door policy then we would be much more able/willing to take in many more genuine refugees.
Immigration became a dirty word again when the flood gates were opened and tens of thousands of migrants from eastern Europe flocked here in there masses and we could do absolutely nothing as a country to control the numbers.
I don't blame these people,I blame the policies which allowed it.
We should now be in a position where we can and want to help these refugees.
Now hundreds of thousands of migrants from Africa and the Middle East are entering Europe illegally.Some are in desperate need of our help,Some want to come and take our jobs,Some want to come and milk our benefits system and some are terrorists and it is very difficult to seperate the people who are genuinely fleeing for their lives from war torn countries and those who are just trying their luck.
We need to be rejecting the illegal immigrants and taking in the people that we know 100% to be the ones who desperately need the help,directly from the countries affected by major conflict.

spot on, but new labour made it politically incorrect to speak about it as frankly as you

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It doesn't matter what they look like, they're refugees from a bullet ridden hell that we've played a large part in creating. Again, I explained all this in my first post. Why stir up sympathy for these people when there's more to gain by stirring up hate instead? Our individual experiences don't matter, least of all yours because these aren't immigrants, they're refugees. They haven't ran from their countries because they fancy our economy, they've ran for their lives.

As for your point about muslims, for every positive representation you offer I can find hundreds more examples of demonisation. Alan Titchmarsh and the GBBO doesn't offset that. There's a lot of bias in the media against muslims, poor people, refugees etc. Just look at the tabloids.

Of course it matters what they look like, especially if picture after picture shows boat load of fit young males most quite well attired intent on coming to the UK regardless of the hurdles put in their place.

Do you really think these are refugees....seriously what person seeking safety or sanctuary from a war ravished country would leave his wife and children behind ..answer... Nobody in fact it would be the only thing they would be desperate to get to safety.

Yet we see boat loads of these young men hellbent on coming to the UK on their own. They are clearly economic migrants or even more sinister they may be part of a plan to infiltrate the country with radicalised Muslim ISIS sympathisers.

Either way they are most definitely NOT refugees.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

We should get into unseaworthy vessels, trek to their ****hole countries and claim asylum. See how they like it.

[arista]

"Either way they are most definitely NOT refugees"

Outside of Syria in the UN base camp
they are refugees.
Some Familys from there will come
to the UK.

The PM is taking the Legal refugees

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Of course it matters what they look like, especially if picture after picture shows boat load of fit young males most quite well attired intent on coming to the UK regardless of the hurdles put in their place.

Do you really think these are refugees....seriously what person seeking safety or sanctuary from a war ravished country would leave his wife and children behind ..answer... Nobody in fact it would be the only thing they would be desperate to get to safety.

Yet we see boat loads of these young men hellbent on coming to the UK on their own. They are clearly economic migrants or even more sinister they may be part of a plan to infiltrate the country with radicalised Muslim ISIS sympathisers.

Either way they are most definitely NOT refugees.

..if the refugees are mainly young males then it would still make perfect sense to me to be that way..in their culture, it would be the males who could flee with more opportunity to find work etc...they wouldn't see that having wives/female members of their family and children coming alone would be something that could give the whole family an opportunity of a life/job/safety/home etc..and maybe all they can afford is one 'passage fare' so the males would be the ones to take that...and why should they not, in their hearts, they would hope to earn the money to then send to their families to come join them...their world is just not the one we know...and 'well attired', well yes because they would also think that so important in securing a job...that if they came here 'in rags' then how would they be able to get a job..?...

..and as for the ISIS sympathisers that may come also, well yes that may happen with a few or some but if we lived our lives of 'possible dangers' then we probably would lock ourselves away and never leave the house...we may as well be in a box surely...if you 'live out' every danger in life, no one would ever do anything and what a pretty crumby world that would be and far worse than anything else I personally think...

[lostalex]

I think it's hilarious how the germans have spun this to make themselves seem so generous, when the fact is they've barely taken in a fraction of what the nearby arab countries have. and not even close to the number of people the US has taken in.

[LeatherTrumpet]

I am not seeing much "taking in of refugees" from the rich Arab states?

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I am not seeing much "taking in of refugees" from the rich Arab states?

you haven't looked at the statistics then. the vast majority of syrian refugees are in the nearby arab countries. the Guardian had a chart showing comparisons of which countries have taken in how many the other day.

Europe has gotten off light compares to what the gulf states have had to deal with.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by lostalex

you haven't looked at the statistics then. the vast majority of syrian refugees are in the nearby arab countries. the Guardian had a chart showing comparisons of which countries have taken in how many the other day.

Not according to one of your esteemed newspapers they aint

The Arab world’s wealthiest nations are doing next to nothing for Syria’s refugees

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...rias-refugees/

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Not according to one of your esteemed newspapers they aint

The Arab world’s wealthiest nations are doing next to nothing for Syria’s refugees

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...rias-refugees/

but they have had to take in the most. like i said.

[Kizzy]

'The vulnerable persons relocation scheme (VPRS) was introduced in January 2014 to provide a route for the most vulnerable Syrian refugees to come to the UK. These are victims of torture and sexual violence, the elderly and those in need of medical care. So far 216 refugees have been housed through the scheme by a number of councils across the UK, and given access to healthcare, education and employment.'

'Bradford council signed up to the relocation scheme in March 2014 and has resettled 103 vulnerable refugees: 23 families with 55 children and seven single people. “They have been welcomed and supported by the community as they deal with the trauma they have suffered, and the difficulties they face settling into a new culture in a foreign city far from their home,”

Yorkshire leads the way, strange how the least affluent boroughs are the ones willing to help...

http://www.theguardian.com/public-le...response-syria

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I am not seeing much "taking in of refugees" from the rich Arab states?

"As of February 2015, over 622,000 Syrians had registered with UNHCR in Jordan."

http://syrianrefugees.eu/?page_id=87

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There is also the fact that fit young men are just quite obviously far more likely, when faced with war in their country, decide to "**** it" and run. It doesn't mea they aren't genuine refugees. Older people who have had their home for decades are less likely to want to be willing to leave it behind even when they are in danger. People with children and families are less likely to go because of the risks involved - risks that we have all seen over the last few days. Young Women are less likely to be going it alone because it's a Muslim culture and young women are still pretty firmly tied to their home and their family.

That leaves young, unattached men?

You'd find exactly the same happening if it was this country being destroyed by war... Only difference would be that there would be more young women too, but that's purely cultural.

Also, how they're dressed and their appearance IS relevant... If they all "looked poor" then surely it would be MORE believable that they're economic migrants? People are pointing out that they're fit, healthy, well dressed, normal looking people. That's because they ARE normal people, who until recently, had normal homes, normal lives and normal jobs. The argument that they are clearly economic migrants because they don't look poor is so illogical and obviously backwards that it's verging on being outright Special Ed.

I have to fully agree with you.
Right now at present I am almost ashamed to think of myself as being born in England.

People fleeing troubled nations that are war torn or being invaded by such a rotten horrific set of beings like ISIS,who then want to get away from that and save their own and hopefully some of their familys lives too and have a possible future elsewhere, being branded as wastes of space.

I really despair for the UK as a decent Nation if people continue to judge others this way.
I hope the change of heart that has been sort of provoked by the image of that sad death of the young boy, will gain momentum even more.
However already there could have been many images of loss of young life, even babies,that have not been shown.

Awful secenes and an even worse chaos for the other Ntaions of the World to help sort out with compassion not just firing out condemnation from the easier lives we have here at present.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I have to fully agree with you.
Right now at present I am almost ashamed to think of myself as being born in England.

People fleeing troubled nations that are war torn or being invaded by such a rotten horrific set of beings like ISIS,who then want to get away from that and save their own and hopefully some of their familys lives too and have a possible future elsewhere, being branded as wastes of space.

I really despair for the UK as a decent Nation if people continue to judge others this way.
I hope the change of heart that has been sort of provoked by the image of that sad death of the young boy, will gain momentum even more.
However already there could have been many images of loss of young life, even babies,that have not been shown.

Awful secenes and an even worse chaos for the other Ntaions of the World to help sort out with compassion not just firing out condemnation from the easier lives we have here at present.

It so upsets me to see comments like this when we've given a billion pounds in humanitarian aid to the region, when the Royal Navy have saved countless lives in the Med and when our contribution has been the biggest in Europe. We're taking refugees from UN camps which is totally the right thing to do. We have supported Jordan who've taken hundreds of thousands of refugees... and this is all separate to the aid and support that's been given individually by the British population to organisations like the Red Cross, MSF and others.

I am extremely proud to be a Brit in this crisis.

[Ammi]

..I do think also though that many people hold their views because they're genuinely frightened..frightened for an already stretched economy and benefits that have already been cut and yes, also frightened of an 'ISIS threat' so I don't really think judgement of those people or loss of faith etc is really helpful in their understandings etc and also it's a judgement for what is felt that others are doing in judging the migrants../which I don't understand personally..it's also just taking focus off the migrants themselves and the crisis...that wasn't directed at you btw Joey or your post specifically but something that was said earlier in the thread...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

It so upsets me to see comments like this when we've given a billion pounds in humanitarian aid to the region, when the Royal Navy have saved countless lives in the Med and when our contribution has been the biggest in Europe. We're taking refugees from UN camps which is totally the right thing to do. We have supported Jordan who've taken hundreds of thousands of refugees... and this is all separate to the aid and support that's been given individually by the British population to organisations like the Red Cross, MSF and others.

I am extremely proud to be a Brit in this crisis.

Has our response been proportional to our involvement? Even now the PM is considering whether to extend the bombing in Syria, based on whether or not he will have opposition backing... Nothing to do with what the nation wants he's using the 'National security' carrot again in the hope we'll go along with his plans... Am I proud of our actions? No I'm not.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

It so upsets me to see comments like this when we've given a billion pounds in humanitarian aid to the region, when the Royal Navy have saved countless lives in the Med and when our contribution has been the biggest in Europe. We're taking refugees from UN camps which is totally the right thing to do. We have supported Jordan who've taken hundreds of thousands of refugees... and this is all separate to the aid and support that's been given individually by the British population to organisations like the Red Cross, MSF and others.

I am extremely proud to be a Brit in this crisis.

That is fair enough with respect.
However I am far feeling being proud, as Nicola Sturgeon put it,of in the main the UK govt walking by on the other side throwing money at a problem to hope it goes away in the main.
That hasn't helped clearly.
I don't think we have done enough,I feel we are led by the weakest leader the UK has ever had in real crissi situations.

I still hold the UK in part responsible for the mess left in Libya,now we have a Conservative MP this morning saying we should talk to Assad in Syria because were his govt to fall, then ISIS take over, the consequences would be truly devastating.
I agree with that, will this PM, I won;t hold my breath as to that one.

We should be doing more and we are now only taking more action as to taking in 'refugees' because the PM has been 'shamed' into doing so.

I will also never be proud to see anyone fleeing for their lives from bloodthirsty assassins like ISIS, being branded wastes of space or cowards by my so calleld fellow citizens in Britain.
If that terminology is deemed something to proud of then I am very glad I will never be so.

[smudgie]

Well, Putin is going to save the day.
Siding with Assad against IS, leave him to it I say.

[Kizzy]

'A fundamental review of Britain’s Ł9bn aid budget will be used to fund Syrian refugees for their first year in the UK and to support Syria’s neighbours hosting camps, George Osborne has said.

As David Cameron prepares to brief MPs on Monday on the government’s plans to admit thousands of extra refugees, the chancellor said the UK would focus on admitting Syrian orphans.

He declined to say how many refugees the government would take, after the Sunday Times reported the figure could be as high as 15,000. He indicated, however, that the government is minded to take several thousand and may even come close to the EU demand of 18,000.
In an interview on the Andrew Marr Show on BBC1, Osborne also confirmed that the government is unlikely to table a Commons vote on extending airstrikes against Islamic State targets in Iraq to Syria unless it wins Labour support. This suggests that the government will be wary of holding the vote in the event of Jeremy Corbyn winning the Labour leadership contest.'

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...refugees-in-uk

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I do think also though that many people hold their views because they're genuinely frightened..frightened for an already stretched economy and benefits that have already been cut and yes, also frightened of an 'ISIS threat' so I don't really think judgement of those people or loss of faith etc is really helpful in their understandings etc and also it's a judgement for what is felt that others are doing in judging the migrants../which I don't understand personally..it's also just taking focus off the migrants themselves and the crisis...that wasn't directed at you btw Joey or your post specifically but something that was said earlier in the thread...

I think this is probably accurate, people are scared and don't want themselves / this country to be dragged under with the weight of all of this. I'd even go as far as to say that's fair enough, I understand that, I'm not sure I agree that it's realistic but if THEY believe it then I understand their fear and why they don't want it to happen...

However, I would have much more respect and understanding if people would just admit it. Admit that these poor desperate people deserve help, deserve OUR help as a nation which has (undoubtedly) benefitted and become richer on the backs of others, and admit that if it's true - if we really can't help more - that that is a tragedy. Saying we want to help, we can see that you need our help, we grieve for you and your nation, but we simply cannot help more... If that is the case... Then so be it.

But is that what we do? Some, yes, but not all or most. Look at our media and look at public reaction. Avoidance, blame, scapegoating, insisting until blue in the face that these are all just "scroungers" who don't even genuinely need help. Vilifying them, shouting "look at their phones! Look how well off they are! Put them back on the boats home!"...

It's shameful. Utterly shameful. And being scared is no excuse for it.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I have to fully agree with you.
Right now at present I am almost ashamed to think of myself as being born in England.

People fleeing troubled nations that are war torn or being invaded by such a rotten horrific set of beings like ISIS,who then want to get away from that and save their own and hopefully some of their familys lives too and have a possible future elsewhere, being branded as wastes of space.

I really despair for the UK as a decent Nation if people continue to judge others this way.
I hope the change of heart that has been sort of provoked by the image of that sad death of the young boy, will gain momentum even more.
However already there could have been many images of loss of young life, even babies,that have not been shown.

Awful secenes and an even worse chaos for the other Ntaions of the World to help sort out with compassion not just firing out condemnation from the easier lives we have here at present.

Really.... ??? How Sad

Personally.. I feel proud to be English and British .

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think this is probably accurate, people are scared and don't want themselves / this country to be dragged under with the weight of all of this. I'd even go as far as to say that's fair enough, I understand that, I'm not sure I agree that it's realistic but if THEY believe it then I understand their fear and why they don't want it to happen...

However, I would have much more respect and understanding if people would just admit it. Admit that these poor desperate people deserve help, deserve OUR help as a nation which has (undoubtedly) benefitted and become richer on the backs of others, and admit that if it's true - if we really can't help more - that that is a tragedy. Saying we want to help, we can see that you need our help, we grieve for you and your nation, but we simply cannot help more... If that is the case... Then so be it.

But is that what we do? Some, yes, but not all or most. Look at our media and look at public reaction. Avoidance, blame, scapegoating, insisting until blue in the face that these are all just "scroungers" who don't even genuinely need help. Vilifying them, shouting "look at their phones! Look how well off they are! Put them back on the boats home!"...

It's shameful. Utterly shameful. And being scared is no excuse for it.

..but you yourself know though through your psychology studies that fear is often outwardly projected in different ways and yes, anger is a huge projection...so, 'what if these young men are not what they seem and will kill my children..'..etc..are here to harm us..?...(when it's just actually as plausible that a female or child could do that anyway..)..can be projected as...'no, go away, you're not genuine and we don't want you'...but it's still fear../the root cause..?...and not something that will do any good condemning in any way...

..and yeah, I know the media but it isn't just with this, it's with most things/the negative portrayal..I think I may have said this in another thread...as awful as they are, they do 'know their audience' as well and with the comments at the bottom of their stories/different stories...and also look at threads on here etc...with a negative 'angle' then it provokes pages and pages of comments and discussion but with a positive human story or portrayal there is very little other than ...aww, that's nice/type thing or maybe no comments at all...I think that's always been a big part of 'human nature' as well/like the gossipy ladies over the garden fence/or so they were portrayed back in the day...lots of discussion about the 'bad stuff'....

[Toy Soldier]

Yeah... People are pretty awful, and they're worse when they're scared. Lynch mentality is obviously nothing new, I guess what bothers me is when people seem to revel in it. Become snide, and sneering. Even if that is just to cover up the fact that they're terrified.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yeah... People are pretty awful, and they're worse when they're scared. Lynch mentality is obviously nothing new, I guess what bothers me is when people seem to revel in it. Become snide, and sneering. Even if that is just to cover up the fact that they're terrified.

...but you don't exactly quise your feelings either ....your judgement of others and very often people don't even know where their feelings are coming from/don't consciously acknowledge or realise their fears, but is doesn't mean that they're not there ...for some people obviously...

[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

That is fair enough with respect.
However I am far feeling being proud, as Nicola Sturgeon put it,of in the main the UK govt walking by on the other side throwing money at a problem to hope it goes away in the main.
That hasn't helped clearly.
I don't think we have done enough,I feel we are led by the weakest leader the UK has ever had in real crissi situations.

I still hold the UK in part responsible for the mess left in Libya,now we have a Conservative MP this morning saying we should talk to Assad in Syria because were his govt to fall, then ISIS take over, the consequences would be truly devastating.
I agree with that, will this PM, I won;t hold my breath as to that one.

We should be doing more and we are now only taking more action as to taking in 'refugees' because the PM has been 'shamed' into doing so.

I will also never be proud to see anyone fleeing for their lives from bloodthirsty assassins like ISIS, being branded wastes of space or cowards by my so calleld fellow citizens in Britain.
If that terminology is deemed something to proud of then I am very glad I will never be so.

Having seen for myself the way our humanitarian aid has been helping in Jordan, I disagree most strongly that we've just "thrown money at it".

There are people in ALL countries who are very anti the refugees and speak about them in hostile language, however the whole country doesn't get branded the way we Brits brand ourselves; also they don't tend to take it as an opportunity to knock the government rather than thinking the very real thought that, whoever was in parliament it would be running pretty much the same. No... other countries rather try to focus on the good that's being done. That's what shames me.