[DemolitionRed]

What do you think of the proposed levy on sugar tax?

[smudgie]

In all honesty I don't think it would make much difference to the amount people would consume.
Taking the firms who make these drinks and other high sugar crap to task would be a better idea.
Just how much sweetness they think we need to taste is ridiculous.

[Toy Soldier]

I don't really have a problem with it to be honest, as with any unhealthy luxury, I'd much sooner see it taxed than essentials or other items. For example, I would happily see a massive tax whacked onto shop-bought alcohol. People would still buy the stuff because let's face it, most people are quite simply low-level addicts. Bump up the price and make a fortune. People aint going to drink less.

[Kizzy]

I may have a lot of copy and pasting to do from the VAT hypothetical thread, I kind of touch on it on there.
I'm all for it basically.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't really have a problem with it to be honest, as with any unhealthy luxury, I'd much sooner see it taxed than essentials or other items. For example, I would happily see a massive tax whacked onto shop-bought alcohol. People would still buy the stuff because let's face it, most people are quite simply low-level addicts. Bump up the price and make a fortune. People aint going to drink less.

Speaking as an addict I've never found this, I envy everyone I know for their entirely healthy relationship with alcohol.

[Northern Monkey]

I would only be for it IF - All proceeds from the tax go to subsidising healthy foods.However much is taxed on sugar should taken off healthy food.Then atleast this tax would actually have some positive effect.Just taxing for the sake of it won't help anyone except the governments pockets.

[LeatherTrumpet]

education is better than tax

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I would only be for it IF - All proceeds from the tax go to subsidising healthy foods.However much is taxed on sugar should taken off healthy food.Then atleast this tax would actually have some positive effect.Just taxing for the sake of it won't help anyone except the governments pockets.

Very good point. Healthy foods and organic/green foods often come from small manufacturers and are therefore more expensive. Compensating such industries would perhaps encourage their growth.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I may have a lot of copy and pasting to do from the VAT hypothetical thread, I kind of touch on it on there.
I'm all for it basically.

I missed that thread Kizzy. Do you have a link?

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Very good point. Healthy foods and organic/green foods often come from small manufacturers and are therefore more expensive. Compensating such industries would perhaps encourage their growth.

Also a good point.I was thinking more from the stand point of the customer.Alot of people use the excuse that 'healthy food's too expensive' but if the taxes raised go toward subsidising healthy foods then it would encourage more people to buy healthy.
I don't agree with just slapping a tax on sugar though.I don't think it would make much of a difference at all.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Speaking as an addict I've never found this, I envy everyone I know for their entirely healthy relationship with alcohol.

Speaking as someone who watched an addict develop, progress and die: I see the kindling of potential alcohol problems everywhere I look. Often the only difference between someone who "just needs a wee glass of wine to wind down in the evening" and full-blown 2 bottles a day alcoholism is one personal tragedy.

If someone uses small amounts of alcohol to deal with low-level everyday stress, then they are at massive risk of turning to large amounts of alcohol to deal with very high stress situations. Basically. VAST numbers of people do the former and are simply lucky enough to never face anything big enough to tip the scales.

[lostalex]

Anything and everything is unhealthy or harmful in some way if it's abused. How many more excuses does the government need to raise taxes? Just raise taxes for everyone and stop pussyfooting around trying to pretend it's for the public good.

Face it, this is just a way for the government(a CONSERVATIVE government) to pretend they aren't raising taxes by targeting certain industries, but guess what, those taxes on companies gets passed down to the consumer so it is a tax on everyone in the end.

The Conservatives need to stop pretending like they are against raising taxes. They always find a a way to raise taxes through loop holes so that people don't realize they are doing it, but they claim that it's only Labour that wants to raise taxes.

The difference is Conservatives only like raising taxes on POOR people( so they target things like alcohol, cigs, junk food, that they know statistically poor people buy more of), but Labour wants to raise taxes on rich people.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I would only be for it IF - All proceeds from the tax go to subsidising healthy foods.However much is taxed on sugar should taken off healthy food.Then atleast this tax would actually have some positive effect.Just taxing for the sake of it won't help anyone except the governments pockets.

Wouldn't it be awesome if there was a system where this was done automatically at shop level? Like, someone buys a load of junk, and an automated till system doubles the price at the till and stores the excess cash. That cash is then taken off of "healthy" food bills.

"Carrots, brocolli, fresh meat, apples... That will be Ł0, the fat bastard with the Doritos and Irn Bru at till 3 just paid for it!"

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Speaking as someone who watched an addict develop, progress and die: I see the kindling of potential alcohol problems everywhere I look. Often the only difference between someone who "just needs a wee glass of wine to wind down in the evening" and full-blown 2 bottles a day alcoholism is one personal tragedy.

If someone uses small amounts of alcohol to deal with low-level everyday stress, then they are at massive risk of turning to large amounts of alcohol to deal with very high stress situations. Basically. VAST numbers of people do the former and are simply lucky enough to never face anything big enough to tip the scales.

You may not like this but I think your experiences have coloured your perception.
Addicts and kids of addicts don't see alcohol as others do, I truly believe that.
Someone may have one glass, they don't need one glass... there lies the difference.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

education is better than tax

I agree but where do we start? Child obesity is at an all time high. Child dental problems have become a UK epidemic and children are getting type 2 diabetes which up until recently was an adult disease, but educating children isn't the answer if they have parents who continue to give them sugary sweets and drinks regardless. The long and the short of it is, children trust their parents choices.

Adults know that sugar piles on the lbs but many do it regardless, right up to the point of becoming 'sugar sick'. Its no different to a smoking addiction; it doesn't matter how much a smoker hears about the perils of smoking, they will carry on regardless until they get a smoking related illness or they themselves decide to quit.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Also a good point.I was thinking more from the stand point of the customer.Alot of people use the excuse that 'healthy food's too expensive' but if the taxes raised go toward subsidising healthy foods then it would encourage more people to buy healthy.
I don't agree with just slapping a tax on sugar though.I don't think it would make much of a difference at all.

I was thinking put it in the pot to be used for the NHS, but it most likely would be swallowed by something else like some dumb war somewhere so logically this makes more sense to subsidise other options, although which ones would be debated forever.
If it was over so many grams per 100g that may be a measure that could be regulated, and relatively easily understood?

The other thread was in serious debates called 'VAT hypothetical' I won't post a link on here as your thread is more specific to the issue anyway.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You may not like this but I think your experiences have coloured your perception.
Addicts and kids of addicts don't see alcohol as others do, I truly believe that.
Someone may have one glass, they don't need one glass... there lies the difference.

I agree that my perceptions are coloured, but not totally. I am capable of acknowledging healthy, social alcohol use... I'm not someone who thinks alcohol is the root of all evil. However, if it's being used as self-medication (and yes, that includes drinking small amounts in the evening to alleviate stress) then it has the potential to become a problem. Not always, and not for everyone, but it's not a healthy use of the substance.

Also, having encountered this in more situations than just my own personal experiences, and discussed ( / argued) the point with a fair few people... I think you'd find that many of those people who "don't need" that one glass have a suspiciously strong inability to actually not have it when pushed.

I find that there's a strong misconception that alcoholism is only alcoholism when it becomes problematic and starts to affect someone's work and personal life, if they can't go a day without a drink, etc... But that isn't the case. The world is absolutely full of functional, successful people with unacknowledged low-level alcohol dependancies.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Wouldn't it be awesome if there was a system where this was done automatically at shop level? Like, someone buys a load of junk, and an automated till system doubles the price at the till and stores the excess cash. That cash is then taken off of "healthy" food bills.

"Carrots, brocolli, fresh meat, apples... That will be Ł0, the fat bastard with the Doritos and Irn Bru at till 3 just paid for it!"

Ha.Yeah.Bit extreme maybe.I would think the tax would be around 20% or so.Hopefully not double.

Be good if 'healthy food' includes meats aswell.Cheap aberdeen angus steak etc and a full chicken for Ł2.50

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I find that there's a strong misconception that alcoholism is only alcoholism when it becomes problematic and starts to affect someone's work and personal life, if they can't go a day without a drink, etc... But that isn't the case. The world is absolutely full of functional, successful people with unacknowledged low-level alcohol dependancies.

Spending half our life in France means new wine is as cheap as a loaf of bread during the wine season. I used to have a glass of wine with my meal every evening and thought nothing of it. I considered a good meal wouldn't be the same without my glass of wine.

When my partner suggested I was a wino I protested; one glass a day does not make a wino does it? He then asked me if I was prepared to walk a mile in the rain for a bottle of wine and although I told him I wouldn't, the reality is, I would. Coming off that one glass of wine was actually quite difficult but once I realised it had become a need and not an occasional indulgence, I knew I had to stop.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Spending half our life in France means new wine is as cheap as a loaf of bread during the wine season. I used to have a glass of wine with my meal every evening and thought nothing of it. I considered a good meal wouldn't be the same without my glass of wine.

When my partner suggested I was a wino I protested; one glass a day does not make a wino does it? He then asked me if I was prepared to walk a mile in the rain for a bottle of wine and although I told him I wouldn't, the reality is, I would. Coming off that one glass of wine was actually quite difficult but once I realised it had become a need and not an occasional indulgence, I knew I had to stop.

I started a thread about this haha... Is every French person an alcoholic if they have a glass with their evening meal, or is is a cute cultural custom?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I agree but where do we start? Child obesity is at an all time high. Child dental problems have become a UK epidemic and children are getting type 2 diabetes which up until recently was an adult disease, but educating children isn't the answer if they have parents who continue to give them sugary sweets and drinks regardless. The long and the short of it is, children trust their parents choices.

Adults know that sugar piles on the lbs but many do it regardless, right up to the point of becoming 'sugar sick'. Its no different to a smoking addiction; it doesn't matter how much a smoker hears about the perils of smoking, they will carry on regardless until they get a smoking related illness or they themselves decide to quit.

I don't think adults are aware of the hidden sugars in labelling, and packaging is very misleading, take ribena most think that's ok because it's tageted to toddlers and it's all cute with little blackcurrants having fun on the bottle... it's rammed with sugar!

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I started a thread about this haha... Is every French person an alcoholic if they have a glass with their evening meal, or is is a cute cultural custom?

The French drink wine because like bread its seen as a necessity!
They rarely drink it without food though but that's why their meals go on for hours and hours

[Kizzy]

Ah well they're not alcoholics... they're glutenaholics!

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I started a thread about this haha... Is every French person an alcoholic if they have a glass with their evening meal, or is is a cute cultural custom?

Not EVERY French person obviously, some can have a drink with every evening meal as part of the meal (I've heard people bang on about how it interacts with flavours and such... dunno, I don't like wine!) and they're not using it to destress.

That said... Apparently, whilst binge-drinking is a much bigger issue in the UK than in France, France does actually have a higher incidence of classic "drunk every day" alcoholism. One of the highest in the world, I think, or at least it was at one point.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I don't think adults are aware of the hidden sugars in labelling, and packaging is very misleading, take ribena most think that's ok because it's tageted to toddlers and it's all cute with little blackcurrants having fun on the bottle... it's rammed with sugar!

When Tescos stopped selling small carton Ribena there was a public outcry

I agree. Its not like the information isn't out there but one has to positively go looking for it.

The problem with food labelling is, you have to be a food technologist to understand some of the ingredients. Sugars are disguised under various unfamiliar names. Food companies are increasingly clever with food prep; instead of using a heap of sucrose, they divide the different types of sugars up so it appears to us, the consumer as a low sugar product. I've just picked up a health bar and its ingredients contain 17% maltose, 10% lactose 10% galactose, 8% sucrose and 8% glucose solids. That's five sugars that make up 53% of this apparently healthy bar. These companies rely on peoples naivety and I don't think they should be allowed to get away with it.

Zero fat is another scam because they have to add sugar to make up for taste.