[Vicky.]

More hours for less pay is never right though, and thats what he is proposing. Wonder if he would do any 'more' work (what is it he does anyways, besides insult working people?) for less pay and more importantly, NO expenses account

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by AProducer'sWetDream

I couldn't agree more Kirk- people expect public sector workers just to lay down and take whatever is thrown at them. I expect people will complain about the lives that are lost due to overworked and tired doctors making mistakes- "the negligent, incompetent b*st*rds!".

Thank you APWD - It's nice to be appreciated. People should remember whose fault it is that this problem has escalated to this stage in the first place.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Thank you APWD - It's nice to be appreciated. People should remember whose fault it is that this problem has escalated to this stage in the first place.

what a lot of nonsense this thread is all this self pity for public sector workers
doctors get a higher basic wage than the prime minister, chief executives get 3 times the prime ministers wage ....even the so called lower paid get quality public sector pensions, infinitely better than most business owners get,,,,,,,,,,,,but lets ignore that in cowardly fashion and all agree with the poor me public sector agenda...don't like it? take some risks that make you accountable and join the private sector

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by the truth

what a lot of nonsense this thread is all this self pity for public sector workers
doctors get a higher basic wage than the prime minister, chief executives get 3 times the prime ministers wage ....even the so called lower paid get quality public sector pensions, infinitely better than most business owners get,,,,,,,,,,,,but lets ignore that in cowardly fashion and all agree with the poor me public sector agenda...don't like it? take some risks that make you accountable and join the private sector

We do not often disagree Truth, but here I'm afraid we are Poles apart. I do not think you read my original post on this subject so I replicate it here. Read it, then please give me your response so I can reply to it:

"....I think that raising the top rate of tax is THE most sensible solution to this country's problems. I do not believe in 'soaking the rich' because it does NOT work, but there is a 'tipping point' at which it becomes an obscenity for the really high income earners to enjoy lenient taxation when two thirds of the population have now NO disposable income left from their hard-earned pay after paying living expenses for living frugally.

A lot of the top earners not only have massive incomes in their own right but enjoy huge fortunes in Inherited Wealth on top of which they add to by being able to save because there are only so many houses, luxury goods, and other trappings even the most extravagant of wealthy people can own, then that high income is virtually all 'disposable' after living expenses.

The super rich, benefit also because they can afford to pay highly skilled accountants to handle their income, saved wealth, and investments to keep as much of it out of the taxman's hands as possible.

I remember one year when I was young and working 60 hours + per work (saving for a deposit for a house purchase) I paid MORE income tax, than HM The Queen (Ł4 Billion net worth) and her pal Lord Vestey who had a million plus income and over Ł700 million net worth at the time.

ALL governments in the UK have always paid 'Lip Service' to true equity when it comes to its citizens - usually doing enough to satisfy the 'working classes' whilst still favouring the 'elite' - but there comes a point where pandering to GREED by increasing NEED is what the abhorrent Edward Heath in one of his more 'decent' moments, called 'The Unacceptable Face of Capitalism'.

I see no reason why Junior Doctors, Nurses, Surgeons, Policemen or the Military - among others - should not be fairly renumerated for their jobs and overtime worked and no reason why they should be emotionally blackmailed and have their conscience pricked just because they are in 'Public Service' professions.

Vocation or no Vocation - they all still have to eat and live."

[DemolitionRed]

I take it you hold no value for public sector workers TheTruth ?

Whilst consultants and specialists and GP's get paid a lot more, junior doctors earn between Ł23,000-Ł28,000 which is more or less the same as a nurse or midwife who earn between Ł21,692 - Ł28,180.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

he is pretty charmless but morally he is in the right. the junior doctors must work compulsory some weekends to save 100000s of lives. most posts are motivated by tory hate here and do not talk about the FACT tens of thousands die at weekends because doctors wont work weekends and demand over time for doing so, something the nhs cannot afford. I love my fellow man more than I hate tories.

You're confusing junior doctors with GPs aren't you?....

[Vicky.]

We need more doctors, not to overwork the ones we already have. And as I said before, it is unreasonable to expect people to do more work for less money.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I take it you hold no value for public sector workers TheTruth ?

Whilst consultants and specialists and GP's get paid a lot more, junior doctors earn between Ł23,000-Ł28,000 which is more or less the same as a nurse or midwife who earn between Ł21,692 - Ł28,180.

I take it you have no value for the tens of thousands of people who die on weekends because not enough doctors will work and those that do want double pay over time

as for your accusations I don't care about public sector workers, what a damned lie. that wage you quote above is a good wage for trainees. they will be on 6 figures after than for the rest of their career and many do private as well. so you can put your violin down. The public sector workers who I do have sympathy for are not doctors but firemen and some in the social services. but of course you label everyone a bigot if they don't agree with your tory hatred 24 hours a day

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

We need more doctors, not to overwork the ones we already have. And as I said before, it is unreasonable to expect people to do more work for less money.

they \are doing less work, they just don't get over time for weekends, why should they? why don't you celebrate the FACT this new working shift pattern will save tens of thousands of lives on weekends, maybe your friends and family, maybe yours?

[Kizzy]

I don't celebrate it personally as I think junior DRs are over worked as it is and this will simply make a bad situation worse, leading to more deaths as a result of exhausted staff.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I don't celebrate it personally as I think junior DRs are over worked as it is and this will simply make a bad situation worse, leading to more deaths as a result of exhausted staff.

can you understand simple maths, these doctors are now working LESS hours....because far far more of them work weekends now and the workload is spread. previously too few doctors would accept overtime for money and work too many hours and the majority would work no weekends. this spreads the workloads. junior doctors now work LESS.

[the truth]

The facts on doctors' pay

Basic salary for junior doctors starts at about Ł23,000 but increases in the second year to about Ł28,000 (Pay for doctors - NHS Careers). For a doctor in specialist training, the basic salary is between Ł30,000 and Ł47,000.

Junior doctors get more for working extra and anti-social hours (currently classified as outside 07:00 to 19:00 Monday to Friday) on top of the basic salary, which boosts their income.




According to figures from the NHS Employers Organisation, the average total salary for a doctor in training is around Ł37,000.

The new contract changes anti-social hours to outside 07:00 to 22:00 Monday to Saturday, making Saturday between 07:00 and 22:00 part of a junior doctor's normal working week.

The change to Saturday working has angered doctors, who say it will reduce overtime pay and cut salaries. The Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, has indicated he may be prepared to reconsider his plan to reclassify working on Saturdays.

The Department of Health thinks the new contract is a better deal. It says it will increase the basic salary for doctors and improve training so that junior doctors will not get paid less on average overall.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

can you understand simple maths, these doctors are now working LESS hours....because far far more of them work weekends now and the workload is spread. previously too few doctors would accept overtime for money and work too many hours and the majority would work no weekends. this spreads the workloads. junior doctors now work LESS.

Please don't patronise me...
This makes no sense, they do work weekends already, it's simply the expansion of what is considered normal working hrs that is in question.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Please don't patronise me...
This makes no sense, they do work weekends already, it's simply the expansion of what is considered normal working hrs that is in question.

You are wrong. a minority work weekends only, the majority do not. do tens of thousands of people die? why aren't you talking about those tens of thousands of dead innocent people? why didn't the junior doctors ever march for them eh?

[AProducer'sWetDream]

Originally Posted by the truth

You are wrong. a minority work weekends only, the majority do not. do tens of thousands of people die? why aren't you talking about those tens of thousands of dead innocent people? why didn't the junior doctors ever march for them eh?

Do you actually have any proof that the majority of doctors don't work weekends? Because I don't know about you, but I've never been in a hospital on a Sunday and not received anything less than excellent treatment. The same goes for everyone I know. The NHS is already a 24/7 service, and one of the best health services in the world. But if Jeremy Hunt continues to increase the workload, and refuse to allow doctors to earn more money for this extra work, without employing more junior doctors, then the NHS will not be able to function as it does for much longer.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

I take it you have no value for the tens of thousands of people who die on weekends because not enough doctors will work and those that do want double pay over time

as for your accusations I don't care about public sector workers, what a damned lie. that wage you quote above is a good wage for trainees. they will be on 6 figures after than for the rest of their career and many do private as well. so you can put your violin down. The public sector workers who I do have sympathy for are not doctors but firemen and some in the social services. but of course you label everyone a bigot if they don't agree with your tory hatred 24 hours a day

Wow, what an over the top rhetoric!

Wasn't it you that said, "take some risks that make you accountable and join the private sector" ? those words sound like the sort of thing a died in the wool privatization campaigner would say and the sort of utterance that's bound to get a response. Sorry if that hurts your ego mate but I think statements like that should be questioned.

A lie? I made a suggestion based on the things you've been saying but because I added a question mark, its not a statement is it?.

The reason people are dying is because we don't have enough GP's working in A&E. There are plenty of junior doctors but they may as well have their hands tied behind their backs. Last year alone we employed three thousand oversees doctors to try and bridge the GP gap but its still not enough because they are leaving quicker than arriving.

As I've already said, junior doctors often work a 65 hour week. Its not unusual for a junior doctor to work an 80 hour week because they stay on after their shifts, not because they want to but because they often need to and are even expected to by their seniors. They are not rewarded for those voluntary extra hours, nor do they expect reward.

A junior doctor isn't just someone fresh out of medical school, doing their foundation year. If you join medical school at 18 you can expect to be 27-28 before you lose your junior title.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

what a lot of nonsense this thread is all this self pity for public sector workers
doctors get a higher basic wage than the prime minister, chief executives get 3 times the prime ministers wage ....even the so called lower paid get quality public sector pensions, infinitely better than most business owners get,,,,,,,,,,,,but lets ignore that in cowardly fashion and all agree with the poor me public sector agenda...don't like it? take some risks that make you accountable and join the private sector

Sorry what?.....
You argue that people are dying due to lack of adequate care and yet you advocate that nobody without access to private care should receive treatment then basically.
Do you realise how many hundreds of thousands would die then?

[arista]

This is a 2015 thread
But it is the same problem
Doctors now in 2022 talking of Strikes.

[arista]