[arista]

Great Debate just on Ch4HD News.


Good on Jon Snow
who told the Young Student
we have many statues in London that have people a bit on the dodgy side.






A Black Student Lad
demanded his statue
to be taken down.
because he was a Imperialist.


I say No
its more important that we know about their History
even if its Evil.

This is what Isis do
so there is no memory of the past.



A link on this Story
http://www.independent.co.uk/student...-10385293.html

[Rhodes made his fortune in the Kimberly diamond mines
and took control of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) under the auspices
of the British South Africa Company.]

Of course hundred years back or more
Africa was owned by Europeans
not just British.

He was a Respected man of his day
blacks were treated terrible - Thats all in our History.

[smudgie]

Hmmm, we celebrated Rhodes and Founders day back in my time in Zim.
Where do you start with trying to put right what wasn't considered wrong in the day..

[arista]

Originally Posted by NanaChristmas

Hmmm, we celebrated Rhodes and Founders day back in my time in Zim.
Where do you start with trying to put right what wasn't considered wrong in the day..

Thats it.


If its taken down
we are getting like Isis

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by NanaChristmas

Hmmm, we celebrated Rhodes and Founders day back in my time in Zim.
Where do you start with trying to put right what wasn't considered wrong in the day..

By acknowledging it as wrong might be a start I'd say.


Rhodes used legislation like the Glen Grey Act to have Blacks forcibly removed to reserves. He introduced policies to segregate non-whites in schools, hospitals, theatres, and public transport, imposed draconian labour laws, forced Blacks to carry passes, and removed thousands from the Cape Colony’s electoral rolls. He explained to the Cape Town Parliament in 1887 that “We must adopt a system of despotism, such as works so well in India, in our relations with the barbarians of South Africa.”

http://oxpaf.com/2015/06/18/why-must...all-in-oxford/

[JoshBB]

You wouldn't have hitler statues as 'history' and I think this is similar tbh.

[arista]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

You wouldn't have hitler statues as 'history' and I think this is similar tbh.

No Way


Hitler was Far more Evil
and Murdered much more

[Livia]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

You wouldn't have hitler statues as 'history' and I think this is similar tbh.

Plenty of statues of Stalin dotted around, and Mao Zedong and plenty of other questionable men. Removing them would be like trying to rewrite history.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Livia

Plenty of statues of Stalin dotted around, and Mao Zedong and plenty of other questionable men. Removing them would be like trying to rewrite history.

Bang On Right
Livia.


Its Like Isis
who take down all former Statues

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Livia

Plenty of statues of Stalin dotted around, and Mao Zedong and plenty of other questionable men. Removing them would be like trying to rewrite history.

This

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Plenty of statues of Stalin dotted around, and Mao Zedong and plenty of other questionable men. Removing them would be like trying to rewrite history.

Indeed

A bunch of spoilt prissy students just need something to complain about tbh

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Plenty of statues of Stalin dotted around, and Mao Zedong and plenty of other questionable men. Removing them would be like trying to rewrite history.

'The removal of statues is not unprecedented. Indeed, removing iconography has always been central to the process of a nation’s reckoning with its problematic past. After the overthrow of Hosni Mubarak in 2011, Egyptians waded through every street removing imagery of their finally-toppled dictator. Libyan rebels similarly tore down the statue of Muammar Gaddafi in his Bab al-Azizya compound in Tripoli. Statues of Josef Stalin are still – as recently as 2011 – being removed from all over Russia and Eastern Europe.
Of course, it would be absurd to claim that these moments deleted these figures from historical memory – rather, they represented a collective will to atone for their widely condemned actions, with the hope that by removing artefacts that idolise unethical ideologies, we can begin to learn from history’s mistakes.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...is-crimes.html

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

'Of course, it would be absurd to claim that these moments deleted these figures from historical memory – rather, they represented a collective will to atone for their widely condemned actions, with the hope that by removing artefacts that idolise unethical ideologies, we can begin to learn from history’s mistakes.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...is-crimes.html

Sheer hypocrisy.

Shall we tear down the Pyramids of Giza, the Great Wall of China? and other priceless antiquities built by the blood, sweat and tears of slaves?

Shall we burn the American Declaration of Independance and demolish all that is good which followed from it, because Adams and Jefferson and the other authours of it were 'slave-owners' ?

Shaka Zulu killed, oppressed, and displaced more Africans than Rhodes and a hundred like him could ever have achieved. Shall we tear down and burn the airport in Durban South Africa named after him?

(His statue was removed from the airport in 2010 - not because of his tyrannical past, but because it showed him unarmed and tending cattle, whereas the protesters demanded that such a 'fine, legendary warrior king' should be shown with a spear and shield')

What about here in the United Kingdom - Shall we demolish every institution and technological advancement which the wealth gained by the imperialistic practices of our Victorian ancestors afforded us?

The argument against Rhodes statue is not only hypocritical, but one being voiced by sinister political agitators for their own anti-British, anti-Democratic, anti-Western agendas.

Rhodes was a creature of his time. As were the great Egyptian Pharoes, the Roman Emperors, the Chinese Emperors, the American 'Founding Fathers' and the great Industrialists of the Victorian Era.

It is enough to recognise and condemn the wrongs that they did from our lofty perches of 'New Enlightenment', but it is equally as wrong to seek to destroy the monuments they left or the statues which commemorate the undoubted good that flowed from some of those wrongs - especially when the architects of such destruction are subversive political agitators manipulating the weak-minded and gullible into supporting that sinister agenda.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Sheer hypocrisy.

Shall we tear down the Pyramids of Giza, the Great Wall of China? and other priceless antiquities built by the blood, sweat and tears of slaves?

Shall we burn the American Declaration of Independance and demolish all that is good which followed from it, because Adams and Jefferson and the other authours of it were 'slave-owners' ?

Shaka Zulu killed, oppressed, and displaced more Africans than Rhodes and a hundred like him could ever have achieved. Shall we tear down and burn the airport in Durban South Africa named after him?

(His statue was removed from the airport in 2010 - not because of his tyrannical past, but because it showed him unarmed and tending cattle, whereas the protesters demanded that such a 'fine, legendary warrior king' should be shown with a spear and shield')

What about here in the United Kingdom - Shall we demolish every institution and technological advancement which the wealth gained by the imperialistic practices of our Victorian ancestors afforded us?

The argument against Rhodes statue is not only hypocritical, but one being voiced by sinister political agitators for their own anti-British, anti-Democratic, anti-Western agendas.

Rhodes was a creature of his time. As were the great Egyptian Pharoes, the Roman Emperors, the Chinese Emperors, the American 'Founding Fathers' and the great Industrialists of the Victorian Era.

It is enough to recognise and condemn the wrongs that they did from our lofty perches of 'New Enlightenment', but it is equally as wrong to seek to destroy the monuments they left or the statues which commemorate the undoubted good that flowed from some of those wrongs - especially when the architects of such destruction are subversive political agitators manipulating the weak-minded and gullible into supporting that sinister agenda.

Weak minded, would it not be weak minded to assume that Britain has never historically had a role to play in subversion, displacement or oppression?
All these students have done is nod to that and the establishment have closed ranks, that is sinister.

[bitontheslide]

Should we re-write all our history books too and pretend events didn't happen? History is there to be learned from, good and bad.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

Should we re-write all our history books too and pretend events didn't happen? History is there to be learned from, good and bad.

Maybe Josh wants that?

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

Should we re-write all our history books too and pretend events didn't happen? History is there to be learned from, good and bad.

And this

[Mystic Mock]

Yeah it's good to keep history restored and not destroying it.

[Kizzy]

Hope that Thatcher one in the houses of parliament comes down for a start...

[arista]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

Hope that Thatcher one in the houses of parliament comes down for a start...

That would be another Isis type of action

[jennyjuniper]

I am sick and tired of people being offended by our history and culture. If they don't like it...F... off and live somewhere that doesn't affect their delicate sensibilities.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by jennyjuniper

I am sick and tired of people being offended by our history and culture. If they don't like it...F... off and live somewhere that doesn't affect their delicate sensibilities.

Trouble is.No country in the world has a squeaky clean past.People just have to accept that and we learn from the mistakes of the past.Blocking it out helps nobody.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by jennyjuniper

I am sick and tired of people being offended by our history and culture. If they don't like it...F... off and live somewhere that doesn't affect their delicate sensibilities.

How true Jenny, but if they did F Off, where would they go? Their problem would be in finding somewhere on this Earth that has not got a less than desirable history, because we British are not alone in the mistakes we have made in our Imperialistic past.

The great irony here is, that huge numbers of learned black people throughout the world owe their education to Rhodes, because when he died, he left almost a billion US dollars by today's value, to found 'Rhodes Scolarships to provide education for poor students - most of which went to OXFORD UNIVERSITY to provide places at Oxford for students from the BRITISH COLONIES as well as Germany and the United States.

[jennyjuniper]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

How true Jenny, but if they did F Off, where would they go? Their problem would be in finding somewhere on this Earth that has not got a less than desirable history, because we British are not alone in the mistakes we have made in our Imperialistic past.

The great irony here is, that huge numbers of learned black people throughout the world owe their education to Rhodes, because when he died, he left almost a billion US dollars by today's value, to found 'Rhodes Scolarships to provide education for poor students - most of which went to OXFORD UNIVERSITY to provide places at Oxford for students from the BRITISH COLONIES as well as Germany and the United States.

So it's a case of biting the hand that feeds them.
Anyway Happy Christmas Kirk and all the best in 2016.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by jennyjuniper

So it's a case of biting the hand that feeds them.
Anyway Happy Christmas Kirk and all the best in 2016.

Merry Christmas to you and your family too Jenny love.

Yes - I believe that the statue of Rhodes was erected by Oxford - NOT to celebrate any imperialistic attainments by him, but specifically to commemorate the massive amount of money which he donated to found his scholarships at that 'Seat of Learning'.

Ignorance truly is bliss for some idiots.


UPDATE:

There is now a Daily Mail article about this. It seems the main protester is a 100% arrogant, ignorant ingrate hypocrite - in my opinion of course.

[URL=news/article-3369612/Mary-Beard-raps-zealots-Oxford-Rhodes-row.html[/URL]

[lostalex]

Why just focus on the statue? Why don't they all just drop out of the university, then it would be a win/win situation.