[lostalex]

I don't get this new line of thinking some stupid people have that if a Muslim does something bad then they can just say "He;s not a real muslim, because a real muslim wouldn't do that!" sorry, but you don't get to just pretend like Muslims are not Muslims...

It's like if a man rapes a woman, then you say "well he is not a man because real men don't rape women".... no it doesn't work that way...he's still a MAN raping a woman. You don't get to decide who is a man or not. and if he's not a man then what is he??

I don't understand this logic that some people have adopted that you cannot call a spade a spade, an apple an apple, an orange an orange.

[Denver]

These terrorist organisation are not Muslims because they have broken so many rules of the Quran

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Donder Kebab

These terrorist organisation are not Muslims because they have broken so many rules of the Quran

the Quran says that homosexuals should be put to death, so is every Muslim that doesn't put gays to death also not a Muslim??

Is any Muslim that has eaten pork also not a muslim?

There are so many different laws that anyone could say who is or is not a christian, any jew that touches a light switch on saturdays is not really a jew??

[Headie]

Originally Posted by lostalex

It's like if a man rapes a woman, then you say "well he is not a man because real men don't rape women".... no it doesn't work that way...he's still a MAN raping a woman. You don't get to decide who is a man or not. and if he's not a man then what is he??

But it's completely different though?

The terrorists who claim to be Muslims also claim to be doing the shootings/bombings etc because of their religion and what their religion tells them to do... yet Islam is not about fighting or bombing at all? The real Muslims are the ones not fighting and actually doing what their religion teaches.

[Denver]

Originally Posted by lostalex

the Quran says that homosexuals should be put to death, so is every Muslim that doesn't put gays to death also not a Muslim??

It also says do not start wars and do not hurt Women, Children, Handicapped or Animals.

[Ashley.]

They are muslims.

They're just really ****ing bad at it.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Donder Kebab

It also says do not start wars and do not hurt Women, Children, Handicapped or Animals.

so then if a Muslim fought in world war 2 to fight against hitler is he not a true muslim?? because innocent men women and children (and animals) were killed in that fighting?

[Denver]

Originally Posted by lostalex

so then if a Muslim fought in world war 2 to fight against hitler is he not a true muslim?? because innocent men women and children (and animals) were killed in that fighting?

Well Hitler started that war

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Donder Kebab

Well Hitler started that war

how does that change the "do not harm women and children" part?

[Denver]

Originally Posted by lostalex

how does that change the "do not harm women and children" part?

Your thinking far too much about this

[lostalex]

The point is, deciding who is or is not a muslim, is the same thing that ISIS does, saying who is or is not a muslim.

Saying YOU get to decide who is a TRUE muslim, is no different than ISIS.

[Jamie89]

To me, the reason behind why people say that, it's more a display of solidarity towards Muslims I think, rather than it being a literal thing. It's simply recognising that terrorists like IS are hiding behind a faith, which in turn a lot of people start attacking (because of the media focus on 'muslim terrorists' etc) when actually their faith has nothing to do with their terrorist acts, so it's just a way of people saying to ordinary muslims that we recognise they are different from the terrorists. I think you're looking into it a bit too much, and nit-picking a bit with some of your points tbh. Like I say, it's not necessarily meant to be a literal thing, but just something to offset all the anti-muslim propaganda that gets thrown about whenever terrorist attacks happen, imo.

[Kizzy]

Muslims to hitler in 7 posts, is that a world record?

[Kyle]

It's essentially the no true Scotsman fallacy.

The Ironic thing is the extremist Muslims will be saying the exact same thing about the more moderates.

Christians are guilty of this too.

[Johnnyuk123]

There is a very simple solution to all of this and that is to ban all religions.
Treat these acts of terror for what it is.. acts of terror. Wipe those terrorists out in the same manner as which they wiped out the many lives of innocent law abiding people.
All religions are bad in my book. This world would be a much better place if it was removed completely from society. Religion is the biggest killer of them all.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

There is a very simple solution to all of this and that is to ban all religions.
Treat these acts of terror for what it is.. acts of terror. Wipe those terrorists out in the same manner as which they wiped out the many lives of innocent law abiding people.
All religions are bad in my book. This world would be a much better place if it was removed completely from society. Religion is the biggest killer of them all.

I don't think religion is to blame though tbh. It can't be, if you have people of the same religion where some are good and some are bad. Even without religion you'll still have people committing horrific crimes. I think religion is used more as a mask that terrorists hide behind, rather than it being the thing that actually causes people to kill.

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by Sleighmie

I don't think religion is to blame though tbh. It can't be, if you have people of the same religion where some are good and some are bad. Even without religion you'll still have people committing horrific crimes. I think religion is used more as a mask that terrorists hide behind, rather than it being the thing that actually causes people to kill.

Hi,
I get the point that your making 100%. But just look around the world at who is killing who and in the name of what. Read any book of faith and you'll find horrendous things asked in order to have faith in whichever god it is. Those books warp peoples minds from a very young age and stop them from being free thinkers and in this day and age we need more free thinkers in the world and not more sheep.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

Hi,
I get the point that your making 100%. But just look around the world at who is killing who and in the name of what. Read any book of faith and you'll find horrendous things asked in order to have faith in whichever god it is. Those books warp peoples minds from a very young age and stop them from being free thinkers and in this day and age we need more free thinkers in the world and not more sheep.

Yeah I agree with that in principle, in that there are some awful religious teachings and of course it's hugely influential. But I can't help but think also that if there was no religion in the world, we'd just find a different reason to segregate ourselves from each other and attack each other. Like, all those religious books that you mentioned were written by people, and so if we take religion out of the equation, we still have those same people in society who want to segregate/attack. Surely they'd just end up doing it in the name of something other than religion. Because people like that, religious or not, will always find followers. It's more a question of 'root cause' in my eyes, and I think the real problems lie with us as a people, and religion is more of a facade, that rather than determining who you are/how you will act etc, gets used as the excuse for why people do the things they do.

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by Sleighmie

Yeah I agree with that in principle, in that there are some awful religious teachings and of course it's hugely influential. But I can't help but think also that if there was no religion in the world, we'd just find a different reason to segregate ourselves from each other and attack each other. Like, all those religious books that you mentioned were written by people, and so if we take religion out of the equation, we still have those same people in society who want to segregate/attack. Surely they'd just end up doing it in the name of something other than religion. Because people like that, religious or not, will always find followers. It's more a question of 'root cause' in my eyes, and I think the real problems lie with us as a people, and religion is more of a facade, that rather than determining who you are/how you will act etc, gets used as the excuse for why people do the things they do.

Good post!
There are lots of nasty people in the world for sure and many of them not even religious too. People at best are fickle. The fickle ones ruin it for the many decent human beings in the world who just want to live in peace and live their lives in a peaceful loving way. It saddens me to know that these books are allowed knowing just how much hate they encourage in the world. Without them there would still be hate but far less of it i am sure.

[Northern Monkey]

I know it's ridiculous.That must mean that Catholic Peados are'nt really Catholic and the Crusaders were'nt really Christians.

[MTVN]

I sort of agree. You can say that you disagree with their reading of the Quran and their interpretation of Islam but to say they are not Muslims? The most powerful extremist leaders tend to be extremely devout and dedicate their lives to studying their religion: its inconvenient that that has led them to believe in terrible things but it doesn't make it any less true.

I don't say that to beat on Islam: some of the most inspirational and progressive people in the world were/are Muslims who have a completely different understanding of their faith and have studied it just as much. And obviously its worth repeating that the vast majority of Muslims lean more towards this group than the extremists. But I am a Westerner from a Christian country with no understanding of Islam so its not my place to say what the religion is all about. It just shouldn't be surprising that Islam - like Christianity - can mean hundreds of different things to different people and at different times in different places. There is no one true understanding of any religion.

[Kizzy]

That in itself is a revelation in the truest sense of the word.

[kirklancaster]

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land...

"Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)...

Quran (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way"

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'

Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal.

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.

Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."

Bukhari (11:626) - [Muhammad said:] "I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes."

Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."


The above are just some of more than 110 verses in the Qran which sanction abduction, extortion and ransom, murder, genocide, beheading, burning alive, and sex slavery - among other atrocities, and it is these passages which the extremist Islamic terrorists seize upon to justify their evil and to convince other Muslims that - far from being evil inhuman monsters - they are carrying out Allah and his prophet Muhammud's will.

The problem is, that some numbers of non-combative 'ordinary' Muslims ARE persuaded, to varying degrees, that these terrorist scum ARE indeed doing Allah's bidding -- whether they admit it, or are even consciously aware of it, or not.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land...

"Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)...

Quran (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way"

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'

Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal.

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.

Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."

Bukhari (11:626) - [Muhammad said:] "I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes."

Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."


The above are just some of more than 110 verses in the Qran which sanction abduction, extortion and ransom, murder, genocide, beheading, burning alive, and sex slavery - among other atrocities, and it is these passages which the extremist Islamic terrorists seize upon to justify their evil and to convince other Muslims that - far from being evil inhuman monsters - they are carrying out Allah and his prophet Muhammud's will.

The problem is, that some numbers of non-combative 'ordinary' Muslims ARE persuaded, to varying degrees, that these terrorist scum ARE indeed doing Allah's bidding -- whether they admit it, or are even consciously aware of it, or not.

That's pure conjecture, the questionable Quran/Bible references discussion is raised in all threads relating to religion.
There is more to jihadism than fundamentalism.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

That's pure conjecture, the questionable Quran/Bible references discussion is raised in all threads relating to religion.
There is more to jihadism than fundamentalism.

I believe what Kirk was meaning is that lines become blurred giving the extremists a degree of acceptability, so its not really conjecture at all.