[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Parliament could be set to debate the idea of a vote of 'no confidence' against Jeremy Hunt after a petition calling for a debate on the issue gained more than 200,000 signatures in less than two days.
The petition was posted on the parliamentary website amid a growing backlash against the Health Secretary after he announced he would be imposing junior doctors contracts despite opposition from the medical community.
Hunt has stood firm on his decision saying it is "not tenable"for him to give in to a union "if it's the wrong thing for patients".


http://www.itv.com/news/2016-02-13/c...00-signatures/

See, although I am against Hunt on this issue,I am not that sure it is him,Andrew Lansley was the man steering that disastrous and damaging top down re-organisation of the NHS.
However he was not seen as presenting it the best way possible.
We then got Hunt put in as health Secretary and I think it was hoped he would be able to use more charm in getting controversial plans enacted.

However he too now is in the doghouse as to his treatment of NHS Junior Doctors and this shambles unfolding now too.

However, the man at the top is the one who can actually order a stop to this, as he did after the outcry against the original top down re-organisation when the Lib Dems were getting cold feet as to supporting it.
Hunt may just be a bit of a scapegoat here for the real plans originally drafted by this PM and Andrew Lansley.

Jeremy Hunt is a rather amiable and decent guy usually,I even welcomed his appointment in place of Lansley, however it still seems possible to me that he is not really doing his plans here but is being forced to continue the disastrous path as to the NHS which are really the ideas of this PM and te former HS Lansley.

I hope there could be a vote of no confidence in him now, it wouldn't be won of course but it should be a massive embarrassment to even have to have one for him.
I lay the blame for this likely more at the PMs door than Hunts.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

See, although I am against Hunt on this issue,I am not that sure it is him,Andrew Lansley was the man steering that disastrous and damaging top down re-organisation of the NHS.
However he was not see as presenting it the best way possible.
We then got Hunt put in as health Secretary and I think it was hoped he would be able to use more charm in getting controversial plans enacted.

However he too now is in the doghouse as to his treatment of NHS Junior Doctors and this shambles unfolding now too.

However, the man at the top is the one who can actually order a stop to this, as he did after the outcry against the original top down re-organisation when the Lib Dems were getting cold feet as to supporting it.
Hunt may just be a bit of a scapegoat here for the real plans originally drafted by this PM and Andrew Lansley.

Jeremy Hunt is a rather amiable and decent guy usually,I even welcomed his appointment in place of Lansley, however it still seems possible to me that he is not really doing his plans here but is being forced to continue the disastrous path as to the NHS which are really the ideas of this PM and te former HS Lansley.

I hope there could be a vote of no confidence in him now, it wouldn't be won of course but it should be a massive embarrassment to even have to have one for him.
I lay the blame for this likely more at the PMs door than Hunts.

Hunt is 100% in the right the junior doctors are 100% in the wrong, on every possible level

[DemolitionRed]

'Jeremy Hunt is a rather amiable and decent guy usually'

I heartily disagree. But then I've read both the books he co-wrote- "Direct Democracy" and "The Plan". In both books he's scathing of the NHS and suggests how the conservatives will denationalize this antiquates social structure in 9 easy steps and implement a US type insurance system.

I firmly believe Hunt wanted to get his grubby hands on this. He's the one man who absolutely should not be allowed to meddle with our NHS.

He's got a track record for setting up rogue deals and passing on information in a sneaky fashion. In 2012 Hunt was caught red handed as a tax dodger, but for me, the worst thing Hunt ever did was publicly try to pass responsibility of the Hillsborough disaster back at the Liverpool fans.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

Hunt is 100% in the right the junior doctors are 100% in the wrong, on every possible level

Can you elaborate on that?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by the truth

Hunt is 100% in the right the junior doctors are 100% in the wrong, on every possible level

As usual, you are wrong about everything.

[Tom4784]

Jeremy Hunt won't survive the next few weeks, Cameron's popularity is already as low as can be and I think he'll sacrifice Hunt in an attempt to salvage his own popularity.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Jeremy Hunt won't survive the next few weeks, Cameron's popularity is already as low as can be and I think he'll sacrifice Hunt in an attempt to salvage his own popularity.

I agree with this...(hopefully anyway)

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Jeremy Hunt won't survive the next few weeks, Cameron's popularity is already as low as can be and I think he'll sacrifice Hunt in an attempt to salvage his own popularity.

I have a feeling this may happen too

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

Hunt is 100% in the right the junior doctors are 100% in the wrong, on every possible level

Totally disagree but then that will be of no surprise to you whatsoever I am sure with respect.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Jeremy Hunt won't survive the next few weeks, Cameron's popularity is already as low as can be and I think he'll sacrifice Hunt in an attempt to salvage his own popularity.

I think you make a strong point there again.

[bitontheslide]

We can all agree and disagree around the politics about wether the "proposals" are correct or not. I have a more fundamental issue with this edict, and its unfortunately the norm these days rather than the exception. It is the philosophy of ... we are bigger than you, so you will do as we say or you can **** off. I just can't subscribe to that in what is supposed to be an adult civilised world.

At some point there has to be some action to redress this imbalance, otherwise something is going to break.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

As usual, you are wrong about everything.

as usual youre wrong and you generalise and get personally insulting
Ive explained why hunt is 100% right already, sub standard service on the nhs weekend death rates at the weekend. its disgusting labour did nothing about this in their 13 years. the so called caring party are as always selling out the country to the unions in return for their block votes. why haven't the oh so caring junior doctors fought for 24 hour weekend staffing before? oh that's right because a load of them don't want to work weekends, some will but only for double time the nhs cant afford. the junior docs have a 13.5% pay rise, they have the safer work patterns so their maximum working hours falls from 91 to 72 hours...

they even have the option if they don't like it to go to wales Ireland or Scotland who offer the old contract. sadly those nations will see tens of thousands of innocent people die from neglect on the weekend over the coming years, thats a FACT that's not scaremongering by the way....the docs have zero to complain about. they should stop holding the country to ransom and risking the lives of their patients with their disgusting petty strikes and their greed....hunt is 100% right, the doctors here are 100% wrong,

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

as usual youre wrong and you generalise and get personally insulting
Ive explained why hunt is 100% right already, sub standard service on the nhs weekend death rates at the weekend. its disgusting labour did nothing about this in their 13 years. the so called caring party are as always selling out the country to the unions in return for their block votes. why haven't the oh so caring junior doctors fought for 24 hour weekend staffing before? oh that's right because a load of them don't want to work weekends, some will but only for double time the nhs cant afford. the junior docs have a 13.5% pay rise, they have the safer work patterns so their maximum working hours falls from 91 to 72 hours...

they even have the option if they don't like it to go to wales Ireland or Scotland who offer the old contract. sadly those nations will see tens of thousands of innocent people die from neglect on the weekend over the coming years, thats a FACT that's not scaremongering by the way....the docs have zero to complain about. they should stop holding the country to ransom and risking the lives of their patients with their disgusting petty strikes and their greed....hunt is 100% right, the doctors here are 100% wrong,

Well for a start the weekend figures he talks about have included Monday and Fridays figures in them too.
Anyway, I am probably massively wasting my time on this with you but I think you are wrong and since you already have a really low opinion of the NHS anyway, no doubt from personal experience and I respect that totally.
The strikes however are 'NOT' about money but the safety of Patients, no one should have imposed on them conditions they believe can be dangerous and make them unable to carry out their duties properly.

It is 40 years since Doctors were pushed into a situation where they felt a need to strike and even though striking, they are still available for emergency situations.
That last strike too, 40 years ago was in fact against a Labour govt at the time.
So Doctors are not the ones playing politics,and even on this issue, even it seems the majority of Consultants back the Junior Doctors on this as well.

So to you, all in the medical profession are wrong, the ones delivering the care, and the govt is right 100%,sorry bit that is ridiculous by any standards.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Well for a start the weekend figures he talks about have included Monday and Fridays figures in them too.
Anyway, I am probably massively wasting my time on this with you but I think you are wrong and since you already have a really low opinion of the NHS anyway, no doubt from personal experience and I respect that totally.
The strikes however are 'NOT' about money but the safety of Patients, no one should have imposed on them conditions they believe can be dangerous and make them unable to carry out their duties properly.

It is 40 years since Doctors were pushed into a situation where they felt a need to strike and even though striking, they are still available for emergency situations.
That last strike too, 40 years ago was in fact against a Labour govt at the time.
So Doctors are not the ones playing politics,and even on this issue, even it seems the majority of Consultants back the Junior Doctors on this as well.

So to you, all in the medical profession are wrong, the ones delivering the care, and the govt is right 100%,sorry bit that is ridiculous by any standards.

How he got away with this I don't know :/

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Well for a start the weekend figures he talks about have included Monday and Fridays figures in them too.
Anyway, I am probably massively wasting my time on this with you but I think you are wrong and since you already have a really low opinion of the NHS anyway, no doubt from personal experience and I respect that totally.
The strikes however are 'NOT' about money but the safety of Patients, no one should have imposed on them conditions they believe can be dangerous and make them unable to carry out their duties properly.

It is 40 years since Doctors were pushed into a situation where they felt a need to strike and even though striking, they are still available for emergency situations.
That last strike too, 40 years ago was in fact against a Labour govt at the time.
So Doctors are not the ones playing politics,and even on this issue, even it seems the majority of Consultants back the Junior Doctors on this as well.

So to you, all in the medical profession are wrong, the ones delivering the care, and the govt is right 100%,sorry bit that is ridiculous by any standards.

The junior doctors are 100% wrong, period. If this was about patients well being the doctors would have fought for 24 hour thorough weekend service years ago....to see so many vulnerable sick people frankly neglected for years on weekends is a disgrace. the death rates are higher on weekends , that's a fact you must accept. it is also infinitely harder to get a simple potentially life saving scan for blood clots etc


for the junior doctors to use sick peoples lives as collateral to try and bully their way to double rates on the weekends is frankly sick. if we had enough foreign doctors id replace all the ones who went on strike and broke their hippocratic oaths.

[the truth]

the FACTS

https://fullfact.org/health/weekend-...nhs-hospitals/

Increased mortality for admissions at the weekend

The study looked at 14 million admissions to NHS hospitals during the 2009/10 financial year. Of these, 300,000 patients died within 30 days of admission. These deaths occurred either in hospital or after the patient had been discharged.

Patients had a 16% greater risk of death within the 30 day period if they'd been admitted on a Sunday than if admitted on a Wednesday. That's adjusting for things like the age of patients or their social deprivation, which might otherwise have distorted the result. For patients admitted on Saturday the risk was was 11% higher than for Wednesday, and for Monday it was 2%. On other days of the week there was no statistically significant difference.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Totally disagree but then that will be of no surprise to you whatsoever I am sure with respect.

You only disagree because of your political leanings, youre ignoring the FACTS. so you Disagree? You disagree that death rates are 16% higher with patients admitted on a sunday than a Wednesday , despite the comprehensive independent surveys proving these FACTS? pls explain how you disagree with these FACTS and this comprehensive independent survey? pls back it up with your FACTS to counter these FACTS. Its you against 300,000 patients

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

as usual youre wrong and you generalise and get personally insulting
Ive explained why hunt is 100% right already, sub standard service on the nhs weekend death rates at the weekend. its disgusting labour did nothing about this in their 13 years. the so called caring party are as always selling out the country to the unions in return for their block votes.

New Labour were heading the NHS in the same direction as the Conservatives are now and I'm in no doubt that NL in its old format would have their very own version of 'Hunt' if they were now in office. NL sold off more of the NHS in its 13 years than the Conservatives ever achieved. Like I've said before, Conservatives and New Labour are the same meat, different gravy. In the last 25 years we have not had one leading party who has tried to protect the downfall of the NHS. They wanted it to fail.

The excessive deaths over weekends can't just be attributed to lack of junior doctors. There are not so many consultants around at the weekend and certain departments, including admissions and access to diagnostics wind down at the weekend (which is ridiculous) and this inevitably causes a back log. Weekend deaths will continue to be a problem regardless of Hunts new contract.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

the FACTS

https://fullfact.org/health/weekend-...nhs-hospitals/

Increased mortality for admissions at the weekend

The study looked at 14 million admissions to NHS hospitals during the 2009/10 financial year. Of these, 300,000 patients died within 30 days of admission. These deaths occurred either in hospital or after the patient had been discharged.

Patients had a 16% greater risk of death within the 30 day period if they'd been admitted on a Sunday than if admitted on a Wednesday. That's adjusting for things like the age of patients or their social deprivation, which might otherwise have distorted the result. For patients admitted on Saturday the risk was was 11% higher than for Wednesday, and for Monday it was 2%. On other days of the week there was no statistically significant difference.

Did you read the bit that said: "too few senior staff"

[Kizzy]

The facts are junior doctors work on weekends ... where is it written they aren't.
Is is presumed all doctors clock off on fri night and don't clock on again untill mon morning?
If for arguments sake there was a discrepancy would it mot be due to the nature of weekend admissions? (drinking and violence)

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The facts are junior doctors work on weekends ... where is it written they aren't.
Is is presumed all doctors clock off on fri night and don't clock on again untill mon morning?
If for arguments sake there was a discrepancy would it mot be due to the nature of weekend admissions? (drinking and violence)

Plus GP services are less accessible at the weekend, people are less likely to seek medical help on a Saturday than they are on a Monday and this can make what was curable on Saturday, incurable by Sunday.

As for junior doctors, whilst there may be plenty of them at the weekend (especially in A&E) to some extent their hands are tied because if 6 juniors have to wait for one GP/consultant to sign off an admission, those junior doctors just get stuck in the same old backlog along with their patients.

[bitontheslide]

Its an incredibly complex subject, and its honestly ridiculous to try and debate it here, cherry picking facts that suit whatever political persuasion one belongs to.

The last labour government had three terms in office to turn things round, they wasted huge sums of money on it and got nowhere. The tories are trying a different approach, quite right given labours complete failure.

All this gesturing is just laughable.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Its an incredibly complex subject, and its honestly ridiculous to try and debate it here, cherry picking facts that suit whatever political persuasion one belongs to.

The last labour government had three terms in office to turn things round, they wasted huge sums of money on it and got nowhere. The tories are trying a different approach, quite right given labours complete failure.

All this gesturing is just laughable.

it is complex, but the truth is simple. too many people are neglected and die on weekends and something must be done about it.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The facts are junior doctors work on weekends ... where is it written they aren't.
Is is presumed all doctors clock off on fri night and don't clock on again untill mon morning?
If for arguments sake there was a discrepancy would it mot be due to the nature of weekend admissions? (drinking and violence)

the minority work weekends. by staggering this into shift patterns in a contract it ensures all junior doctors work some weekends, thus spreading the workload more fairly across all junior doctors. this was a very brave move by the conservatives , labour are cowards, they have ducked this issue for decades and sat on the sidelines while thousands of sick patients were neglected with the 2nd class weekend service.

in time we will see mortality rates FALL in England and the weekday / weekend death rates discrepancy will fall. in the resu of the uk, the weekend death rate will continue to be much much worse. yet again as with the economic figures , especially the unemployment rates, the tories will hammer new labour

ps I am NOT a tory voter, never have been. but quite simply they are 100% right in this. labour are 100% wrong.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Its an incredibly complex subject, and its honestly ridiculous to try and debate it here, cherry picking facts that suit whatever political persuasion one belongs to.

The last labour government had three terms in office to turn things round, they wasted huge sums of money on it and got nowhere. The tories are trying a different approach, quite right given labours complete failure.

All this gesturing is just laughable.

What gesturing...debating on contemporary issues you mean?