[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The problem is probably that people sweepingly consider any criticism of Israel to be anti-Semitism, when it is not.

what "people" is this?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

what "people" is this?

Stupid ones?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Stupid ones?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

I mean don't get me wrong, I do feel like anti-semitism is more aligned to the far-right than those on the far-left, however it is one element of racism that seems to have at least a tiny amount of backing on the left whereas the left tends to reject every other form of racism. I'd find it really interesting if you did a longer post on what you think about the whole Israel scenario too like Kizzy said, with your knowledge & experiences it would be really insightful to read.

Don't think Kizzy would ever say anything positive to me or about me. I'll put something together Josh.

Originally Posted by lostalex

To be fair, there is a bias among jews all over the world towards Israel. especially jews in North America.

Probably because of right to return and family pressure to visit "the homeland". there is no doubt Livia that jews all over the world, no matter how far removed from Israel itself, just being jews they do feel a loyalty. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, but it's silly to deny it exists.

Just like most blacks feel a loyalty to Africa even if they've never been there and have no desire to ever live there, they still have an automatic bias towards what is perceived as "the homeland".

Israel is our spiritual and cultural home. The Israel talked about in the Bible, not the state set up in the forties. If Britain and the US had not instigated the "State of Israel", Jews would still have gone there after the Holocaust, no one could have stopped them.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The problem is probably that people sweepingly consider any criticism of Israel to be anti-Semitism, when it is not.

Sweepingly? Anti-Semitism is stabbing and shooting people just because they are Jews, it's blowing up synagogues and attacking worshippers simply because they are Jews. I don't support the vast majority of what the Israeli government do... however, there is no black and white answer regarding Israel and Palestine. You have to view it from both sides, it's not a Good/Bad question.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What a reductive view, hey,some think war and genocide are wrong...let's mock them till they change their minds :/

They claim to be against war and genocide and yet cosy up to some of the biggest despots in the known world. Seems a bit of an anomaly to me.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

Don't think Kizzy would ever say anything positive to me or about me. I'll put something together Josh.



Israel is our spiritual and cultural home. The Israel talked about in the Bible, not the state set up in the forties. If Britain and the US had not instigated the "State of Israel", Jews would still have gone there after the Holocaust, no one could have stopped them.



Sweepingly? Anti-Semitism is stabbing and shooting people just because they are Jews, it's blowing up synagogues and attacking worshippers simply because they are Jews. I don't support the vast majority of what the Israeli government do... however, there is no black and white answer regarding Israel and Palestine. You have to view it from both sides, it's not a Good/Bad question.



They claim to be against war and genocide and yet cosy up to some of the biggest despots in the known world. Seems a bit of an anomaly to me.

Actually I think I was the one who wished you would.

You have always been the focus of where I would come on this issue anyway.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Actually I think I was the one who wished you would.

You have always been the focus of where I would come on this issue anyway.

Well, that's what happens when I try to answer multi-posts!

Thanks for the kind words, joey.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

Sweepingly? Anti-Semitism is stabbing and shooting people just because they are Jews, it's blowing up synagogues and attacking worshippers simply because they are Jews. I don't support the vast majority of what the Israeli government do... however, there is no black and white answer regarding Israel and Palestine. You have to view it from both sides, it's not a Good/Bad question.

I'm not saying it is, all I'm saying is that when some people talk about rising anti-Semitism, they are actually referring to anti-Israel sentiment / boycotting etc... A lot of people fail to make a distinction.

That's not to say that anti-Israel sentiment doesn't sometimes spill over into antisemitism... It does, unfortunately... In the same way that people the world over find themselves blamed by association for things that they don't endorse.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Livia

Don't think Kizzy would ever say anything positive to me or about me. I'll put something together Josh.



Israel is our spiritual and cultural home. The Israel talked about in the Bible, not the state set up in the forties. If Britain and the US had not instigated the "State of Israel", Jews would still have gone there after the Holocaust, no one could have stopped them.



Sweepingly? Anti-Semitism is stabbing and shooting people just because they are Jews, it's blowing up synagogues and attacking worshippers simply because they are Jews. I don't support the vast majority of what the Israeli government do... however, there is no black and white answer regarding Israel and Palestine. You have to view it from both sides, it's not a Good/Bad question.



They claim to be against war and genocide and yet cosy up to some of the biggest despots in the known world. Seems a bit of an anomaly to me.

the US definitely could have stopped them. don't act so entitled. we gave that to you, and don't forget it. the jews are getting a bit too cocky lately. The jews are still a people lost in the desert, and you can get a lot more lonely in that desert if you don't watch your tongue.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not saying it is, all I'm saying is that when some people talk about rising anti-Semitism, they are actually referring to anti-Israel sentiment / boycotting etc... A lot of people fail to make a distinction.

That's not to say that anti-Israel sentiment doesn't sometimes spill over into antisemitism... It does, unfortunately... In the same way that people the world over find themselves blamed by association for things that they don't endorse.

Yes, I do agree it's one of the symptoms of the rising anti-Semitism but there are many other factors. The hijacking of the Islamic faith by terrorists have given right wingers all over Europe a fresh sense of indignation. They already hate the Jews anyway... so we're - confusingly - lumped in with the Islamists. And the terrorists themselves target Jews because of the Palestinian situation. It's a ****ing mare's nest. When you consider how long we have on this little planet it always astounds me that people don't make a bigger effort to get on. Except the Buddhists obviously... they're here over and over again.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by lostalex

the US definitely could have stopped them. don't act so entitled. we gave that to you, and don't forget it. the jews are getting a bit too cocky lately.

We believe that God gave it to us about 5000 years before there were any white faces in what became the USA.

Hey Alex.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Livia

We believe that God gave it to us about 5000 years before there were any white faces in what became the USA.

Hey Alex.

Hey Livia.

there is no god. and even if there was he has no authority over this world.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Hey Livia.

there is no god. and even if there was he has no authority over this world.

I support your right to think that, Alex.

[Toy Soldier]

I also recently found an ancient tablet that says God gave me the whole of the US, I've had it dated and it's 8000 years old. Sooo... Start packin' Alex.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I also recently found an ancient tablet that says God gave me the whole of the US, I've had it dated and it's 8000 years old. Sooo... Start packin' Alex.

Like God would speak to the likes of you, TS... you bloody heathen.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

Like God would speak to the likes of you, TS... you bloody heathen.

That's why he left a message...

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's why he left a message...

That wasn't God, it was Leather Trumpet 'avin' a larf.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

That wasn't God, it was Leather Trumpet 'avin' a larf.

On the first day, LT created man.

On the second day, he created Cops.

On the third day, one of the cops shot a black kid for no reason.

On the fourth day, one of the cops shot all of the other cops by accident.

On the fifth day, that last cop shot all of the other humans and then himself.

On the sixth day, LT defended the actions of the cop because he had a stressful job, and decided to start over by creating a world populated only with cops.

On the seventh day he was going to rest... But instead decided to troll TS off TiBB by planting an ancient tablet to be discovered thousands of years later.




... It's as good an origin story as any, I suppose.

[Mystic Mock]

Pmsl at Toy Soldier and Livia.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Don't think Kizzy would ever say anything positive to me or about me. I'll put something together Josh.

I have, it's rare.. but I have.



They claim to be against war and genocide and yet cosy up to some of the biggest despots in the known world. Seems a bit of an anomaly to me.

Who are 'they', am I they...is Corbyn they?

[kirklancaster]

Illuminating article from The Spectator;

Why do leftists care more about Muslims than they do about Jews? If that sounds confrontational, consider this: this week, the Met Police released the latest hate-crime figures for London. They show that offences against Jews have risen by 93% over the past year, while offences against Muslims have risen by 70%. And guess which story the BBC, Guardian and Independent, those voices of the British liberal conscience, have chosen to flag up? Yep, the 70% hike in Islamophobic attacks, not the nearly 100% hike in anti-Semitic offences.

The BBC’s headline is ‘Islamophobic crime in London “up by 70%”‘. The Guardian‘s is ‘Hate crimes against Muslims soar in London’. The Indie opts for ‘Hate crimes against Muslims in London “up by 70%”‘. What about the crimes against Jews? Sorry, no room for those. They aren’t mentioned. Whether as a result of how the cops chose to press-release their new figures or how editors chose to interpret them, or maybe a bit of both, someone down the line has taken the decision that a bashed-up or verbally abused Muslim is more newsworthy than a bashed-up or verbally abused Jew.

This is becoming increasingly common. For some reason, so-called progressives, especially those of a leftist bent, are made more upset by hatred of Muslims than they are by hatred of Jews. It’s why the very people – Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Diane Abbott, every leftie on Twitter – who normally rail against racism, and against the people who rub shoulders with racists, could in essence say ‘What’s all the fuss?!’ when it was revealed Jeremy Corbyn had been hanging out with Holocaust deniers.

[Alt-Text]
It’s why every bovine attack on a mosque is held up as hard evidence that Europe is descending into a cesspool of anti-Muslim hatred, whereas you have to scour the media to find mentions of attacks on synagogues. In recent days, a Manchester teen was beaten up in a suspected anti-Semitic assault; a Jewish Spanish teenager was physically attacked; and two Holocaust survivors in Amsterdam were assaulted and called ‘dirty Jews’. Yet these incidents aren’t frontpage news; certainly they aren’t cited as evidence that a new plague of prejudice is stalking Europe, as is done when Muslims are assaulted. The message of this double standard, however implicit it might be, is pretty clear: attacks on Jews are less important than attacks on Muslims.

The extent to which chattering-class concern for Muslims trumps concern for Jews reached its nadir when four Jews were murdered in a Parisian deli shortly after the massacre at Charlie Hebdo. Pretty much every liberal newspaper in Europe continued thundering on about the potential for an ‘Islamophobic backlash’ following the Charlie killings, even as Jews were being killed. On the morning the four dead Jews were being put on a flight for burial in Israel, George Clooney was telling fawning hacks how worried he was about ‘anti-Muslim fervour’ in Europe. It’s surreal. Some people seem more worried about possible attacks on Muslims than by actual attacks on Jews.

And now, a hike in anti-Muslim crimes in London is given greater media prominence than a larger hike in anti-Jewish attacks. This implicit demotion of Jewish problems, this judgement that crimes against Jews aren’t all that serious, needs some explanation. I think there are two reasons for it.

The first is that flagging up attacks on Muslims allows the left to indulge some prejudices of their own, especially about the dumb, tabloid-reading hordes, whom they view as being one iffy Richard Littlejohn column away from organising a demented anti-Muslim pogrom. The liberal elite’s myopic focus on Islamophobia is really an expression of distrust for the insufficiently multicultural, apparently Western-centric masses.

The second reason is that many on the left seem to think anti-Semitism is politically justified. From Karen Armstrong’s insistence that the deli attack in Paris ‘had nothing to do with anti-Semitism’ and rather was ‘about Palestine’ to various commentators’ claims that anti-Semitism in Europe is the inevitable byproduct of Israel’s antics in the Middle East, many very respectable people now view assaults on Jews almost as a form of protest, as political rather than hateful.

That’s the terrifying message of the media and leftists’ implicit downgrading of the seriousness of anti-Semitism. Whether they’re excusing these crimes or simply acquiescing to them, they’re giving a green light to anti-Semitism.

[kirklancaster]

Sadiq Khan: I wear badge of shame over anti-Semitism in Labour

Labour mayoral candidate Sadiq Khan today said he wears a “badge of shame” because of anti-Semitism in his party.

He attacked Labour’s leadership for not taking a “tougher stance” and said he knew what it was to “suffer hate crime”, before adding: “I also know it’s unacceptable in 2016 that there is anti-Semitism in the Labour party.

“It’s with sorrow that I wear that badge of shame.” He added: “If it means members of my party, senior members of my party including members of [Labour’s ruling National Executive Committee] being trained about what anti-Semitism is, then so be it.”

NEC members include party leader Jeremy Corbyn. At a hustings organised by the London Jewish Forum, Jewish news and JW3 in Finchley Road, Mr Khan added: “I have said at the outset, I’m embarrassed and sorrowful about anti-Semitism in the party.

"I think the Labour leadership could have taken a tougher stance and needs to take a tougher stance.”

It comes after Mr Corbyn’s brother was dragged into the furore for comments relating to Jewish Labour MP Louise Ellman.

After she called for tougher action on anti-Semitism in the party, Piers Corbyn described her remarks as “absurd” and tweeted: “#Zionists cant cope with any-one supporting rights for #Palestine.”

The Sun reported that Jeremy Corbyn responded saying: “My brother has his point of view, I have mine and we actually fundamentally agree. We are a family that were brought up fighting racism from the day we were born.”

[kirklancaster]

Jeremy Corbyn's brother attacks 'Zionist' Jewish Labour MP

Labour has been rocked by a series of anti-Semitic incidents in recent weeks

JEREMY Corbyn has been caught up in another anti-Semitism row – after his BROTHER attacked a “Zionist” Jewish Labour MP.

Just two weeks after Labour leader Corbyn promised to do more to tackle anti-Semitism within his own party, astrophysicist and weather expert Piers Corbyn has landed him in more hot water.

Responding to a story about Jewish Labour MP Louise Ellman saying not enough is being done to tackle the problem within the party, he defended those accused and wrote: “Zionists can’t cope with anyone supporting rights for Palestine.”

Weather forecaster Corbyn has previous form with contentious tweets, including one linking Israel with ISIS.

In November last year, he retweeted a post from openly anti-Semitic Twitter account @RealFKNews – whose bio says “expose the Holocaust Hoax” - promoting a conspiracy theory suggesting Israel is in cahoots with ISIS.

When challenged about the allegation, Piers, who is not thought to be a member of the Labour party any more, wrote he simply retweeted it to “get an answer.”

He also responded in 2014 to an article about the Iranian Supreme Leader calling for Muslims to arm Hamas with this capitalised tweet saying “ISRAEL WILL REAP A WHIRLWIND.”

It comes after a string of anti-Semitic incidents within the Labour party.

Vicki Kirby, the vice chair of the Labour's Woking branch, was promoted despite tweeting that Jews have "big noses" and "slaughter the oppressed", before calls for Corbyn to suspend her.

In the past few days, it has also emerged that Labour councillor and former Lord Mayor of Bradford Khadim Hussain was suspended from the Party after promoting a cartoon on social media bemoaning the emphasis schools place on teaching the Holocaust "and the six million Zionists that were killed."


HOW REVEALING THAT ANTI-SEMITIC PIERS CORBYN DISGUSTINGLY STATES ALL THE ABOVE (AND MORE) YET LABOUR LEADER JEREMY CORBYN SUPPORTS HIM AND STATES;

“My brother has his point of view, I have mine and we actually fundamentally agree."

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Illuminating article from The Spectator;

Why do leftists care more about Muslims than they do about Jews? If that sounds confrontational, consider this: this week, the Met Police released the latest hate-crime figures for London. They show that offences against Jews have risen by 93% over the past year, while offences against Muslims have risen by 70%. And guess which story the BBC, Guardian and Independent, those voices of the British liberal conscience, have chosen to flag up? Yep, the 70% hike in Islamophobic attacks, not the nearly 100% hike in anti-Semitic offences.

The BBC’s headline is ‘Islamophobic crime in London “up by 70%”‘. The Guardian‘s is ‘Hate crimes against Muslims soar in London’. The Indie opts for ‘Hate crimes against Muslims in London “up by 70%”‘. What about the crimes against Jews? Sorry, no room for those. They aren’t mentioned. Whether as a result of how the cops chose to press-release their new figures or how editors chose to interpret them, or maybe a bit of both, someone down the line has taken the decision that a bashed-up or verbally abused Muslim is more newsworthy than a bashed-up or verbally abused Jew.

This is becoming increasingly common. For some reason, so-called progressives, especially those of a leftist bent, are made more upset by hatred of Muslims than they are by hatred of Jews. It’s why the very people – Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Diane Abbott, every leftie on Twitter – who normally rail against racism, and against the people who rub shoulders with racists, could in essence say ‘What’s all the fuss?!’ when it was revealed Jeremy Corbyn had been hanging out with Holocaust deniers.

[Alt-Text]
It’s why every bovine attack on a mosque is held up as hard evidence that Europe is descending into a cesspool of anti-Muslim hatred, whereas you have to scour the media to find mentions of attacks on synagogues. In recent days, a Manchester teen was beaten up in a suspected anti-Semitic assault; a Jewish Spanish teenager was physically attacked; and two Holocaust survivors in Amsterdam were assaulted and called ‘dirty Jews’. Yet these incidents aren’t frontpage news; certainly they aren’t cited as evidence that a new plague of prejudice is stalking Europe, as is done when Muslims are assaulted. The message of this double standard, however implicit it might be, is pretty clear: attacks on Jews are less important than attacks on Muslims.

The extent to which chattering-class concern for Muslims trumps concern for Jews reached its nadir when four Jews were murdered in a Parisian deli shortly after the massacre at Charlie Hebdo. Pretty much every liberal newspaper in Europe continued thundering on about the potential for an ‘Islamophobic backlash’ following the Charlie killings, even as Jews were being killed. On the morning the four dead Jews were being put on a flight for burial in Israel, George Clooney was telling fawning hacks how worried he was about ‘anti-Muslim fervour’ in Europe. It’s surreal. Some people seem more worried about possible attacks on Muslims than by actual attacks on Jews.

And now, a hike in anti-Muslim crimes in London is given greater media prominence than a larger hike in anti-Jewish attacks. This implicit demotion of Jewish problems, this judgement that crimes against Jews aren’t all that serious, needs some explanation. I think there are two reasons for it.

The first is that flagging up attacks on Muslims allows the left to indulge some prejudices of their own, especially about the dumb, tabloid-reading hordes, whom they view as being one iffy Richard Littlejohn column away from organising a demented anti-Muslim pogrom. The liberal elite’s myopic focus on Islamophobia is really an expression of distrust for the insufficiently multicultural, apparently Western-centric masses.

The second reason is that many on the left seem to think anti-Semitism is politically justified. From Karen Armstrong’s insistence that the deli attack in Paris ‘had nothing to do with anti-Semitism’ and rather was ‘about Palestine’ to various commentators’ claims that anti-Semitism in Europe is the inevitable byproduct of Israel’s antics in the Middle East, many very respectable people now view assaults on Jews almost as a form of protest, as political rather than hateful.

That’s the terrifying message of the media and leftists’ implicit downgrading of the seriousness of anti-Semitism. Whether they’re excusing these crimes or simply acquiescing to them, they’re giving a green light to anti-Semitism.

Initially that sounds very bad, unless you consider what the figures for the previous year were... if there were say 10 attacks for one group and 1000 for another then the rise would be no less concerning but the response significantly different.

[Kizzy]

Personally I'd say it was the rise and rise of the far right movements that has created the increase in antisemitism, they don't like Muslims or the Jewish do they?

[Livia]

Personally, I'm not really bothered about knowing who hates us more, the left or the right. The Jews have been oppressed, murdered, exiled, detested, like I said earlier, for millennia. The word "ghetto" might mean something different now, but it's derived from a Hebrew word, ghettos were initially areas of cities where Jews were "allowed" to live. We've lasted as a people for well over 5000 years despite regular bouts of genocide and still people say stuff like "yeah but, you people own Hollywood", or "Jews aren't liked because they own all the banks". Both those comments have been made on this forum. The Jewish religion doesn't recruit, I'm pretty sure there aren't any Jewish terrorists blowing up the west... yet we're still hated by people on the right and on the left. Despite everything the human race has been through and everything we know... we're not really any further forward.