[Ninastar]

im up for joining whoever hates the jews the most

[Ninastar]

(im joking Livia.... i love you really)

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Ninastar

im up for joining whoever hates the jews the most

I'm watching you, Missy......

[MTVN]

There has been a problem with the left and anti-semitism for a long time I think. It's different from the far-right - they hate Jews because of mad conspiracies about them controlling money and governments and the like - on the left the issue derives from their 'solidarity' with groups like Hamas and Hezbollah and their hatred for Israel. It is they who confuse anti-zionism with anti-semitism, not their critics.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Livia

Personally, I'm not really bothered about knowing who hates us more, the left or the right. The Jews have been oppressed, murdered, exiled, detested, like I said earlier, for millennia. The word "ghetto" might mean something different now, but it's derived from a Hebrew word, ghettos were initially areas of cities where Jews were "allowed" to live. We've lasted as a people for well over 5000 years despite regular bouts of genocide and still people say stuff like "yeah but, you people own Hollywood", or "Jews aren't liked because they own all the banks". Both those comments have been made on this forum. The Jewish religion doesn't recruit, I'm pretty sure there aren't any Jewish terrorists blowing up the west... yet we're still hated by people on the right and on the left. Despite everything the human race has been through and everything we know... we're not really any further forward.

unless you count the West Bank...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

There has been a problem with the left and anti-semitism for a long time I think. It's different from the far-right - they hate Jews because of mad conspiracies about them controlling money and governments and the like - on the left the issue derives from their 'solidarity' with groups like Hamas and Hezbollah and their hatred for Israel. It is they who confuse anti-zionism with anti-semitism, not their critics.

Not saying your right, but you say that like it's somehow more acceptable to hate Jewish people due to to conspiracy theories.
If both sides 'hate' the Jews then are not both sides equally unjustified?

[DemolitionRed]

I try not to get overly involved in debates about Gaza because I'm married to a none practising Jew and according to him and his family, I am Jewish because my ancestral maternal line is Jewish, though not since the early nineteen hundreds.

Anti-semitism and not liking Bibi's oppressive government are not the same thing.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Not saying your right, but you say that like it's somehow more acceptable to hate Jewish people due to to conspiracy theories.
If both sides 'hate' the Jews then are not both sides equally unjustified?

Well I didn't intend to imply that, if anything I think I was saying the other way round that the right's anti-semitism is more unhinged, not that that makes it 'worse' exactly

[Kizzy]

Could anti war be confused with anti-semitism at times though to further an agenda?

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Could anti war be confused with anti-semitism at times though to further an agenda?

not when it manifests as anti semitism

[Ninastar]

TBH if I'm gonna be really stereotypical or w.e the right phrase is, I think the Left is more 'All religion is bad apart from Muslims!!!!!!!!' where as the right is more 'All Religion is great apart from Muslims!!!!'

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

not when it manifests as anti semitism

How could that happen?
If you are anti war then you are against the ideology of war, ( all war) not religious belief.
The only way that could be misconstrued is if it was spun intentionally to do so.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Could anti war be confused with anti-semitism at times though to further an agenda?

Of course, accusations of anti-semitism will be used to try to shut down all sorts of discussions, on the assumption that people will be "too scared to go there".

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

not when it manifests as anti semitism

Exactly. Howard Jacobson always talks a lot of sense about it:

Alone of prejudices, anti-Zionism is sacrosanct. How very dare we distinguish the motivation of one sort from another? Or question, in any instance, an anti-Zionist’s good faith? In fact, what determines whether anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic is the nature of it. Question Israel’s conduct of recent wars and you won’t find many Jews, in Israel or outside it, who disagree with you. Join Hamas in calling for the destruction of the Jewish state, as the prime instigator of all evil, and you’re on shakier ground.

In an apparent softening of party tone, Corbyn’s warm-up man, the journalist Owen Jones, recently reprimanded the Left for its ingrained anti-Semitism. Welcome words, but they will remain only words so long as the Corbynite Left – and indeed the not-so Corbynite Left – refuses to acknowledge the degree to which anti-Semitism is snarled up in the before and after of Israelophobia. The Stop The War Coalition is a sort of home to Jew-haters because its hate music about Israel is so catchy. It simplifies a complex and heartbreaking conflict, it elides causes and effects, it perpetuates a fable that flatters one side and demonises another, it ignores all instances of intransigence and cruelty but one, inflaming hatred and enabling the very racism it declares itself opposed to.

Let’s forget whether or not anti-Semitism is the root of this. It is sufficient that it is the consequence.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-10487318.html

[Kizzy]

'Let’s forget whether or not anti-Semitism is the root of this. It is sufficient that it is the consequence.'

This is in itself a nonsensical statement.
In essence it means no matter your ideology should someone either intentionally or unintentionally misinterpret it, it's your fault.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by MTVN

There has been a problem with the left and anti-semitism for a long time I think. It's different from the far-right - they hate Jews because of mad conspiracies about them controlling money and governments and the like - on the left the issue derives from their 'solidarity' with groups like Hamas and Hezbollah and their hatred for Israel. It is they who confuse anti-zionism with anti-semitism, not their critics.

There are plenty of left leaning conspiracy theorists but they don't stoop as low as suggesting the holocaust never happened.

Left leaning people tend to be more atheist than right leaning people and therefore, don't look at the religion but at the troubles and the person/people involved. Most left wing people believe that everybody has a right to live on that land in safety and security and therefore "Jew" and "Israel" and "Muslims and "Palestine" are not the same thing. It would be ignorant to assume otherwise.

Right leaning Protestant Christians embrace Israel because it is the landing zone for "The second coming" and they want to be sure that zone is under Western authority when Jesus comes back to spirit them off.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Right leaning Protestant Christians embrace Israel because it is the landing zone for "The second coming" and they want to be sure that zone is under Western authority when Jesus comes back to spirit them off.

What I find hilarious is, if Jesus was real and really could do magic tricks and stuff, and he did return... no one would actually believe it . Everyone's a skeptic these days.

He would be like "I have returned! Behold my miracles!"

And the people who were there would be like "lol yeah right I bet I know how he did it. My mate John said he could even see the strings pmsl"

And the people seeing pictures and videos from home would be like "Haha yeah OK. Photoshop / green-screen. Fake."

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

What I find hilarious is, if Jesus was real and really could do magic tricks and stuff, and he did return... no one would actually believe it . Everyone's a skeptic these days.

He would be like "I have returned! Behold my miracles!"

And the people who were there would be like "lol yeah right I bet I know how he did it. My mate John said he could even see the strings pmsl"

And the people seeing pictures and videos from home would be like "Haha yeah OK. Photoshop / green-screen. Fake."

The Jews would certainly have a good laugh because they don't believe in the 2nd coming but in the mean time, they're happy to get political support

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

The Jews would certainly have a good laugh because they don't believe in the 2nd coming but in the mean time, they're happy to get political support

It could all get really confusing if the J-man does turn up, couldn't it? The Jews would be like "He's finally here!", and the Christians be like "He's back!". What a pickle.

[waterhog]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2...ism-so-common/

Now, I'm not the kind of person who likes to make generalisations on those who side politically left or right (though some of you may disagree with my self-analysis), and it is no secret that I lean towards the left.. however I thought I would share this article because it provoked thought and I found it interesting.

This paragraph in particular changed my thoughts slightly too:

My personal view on why anti-semitism may have a slight boost on the left compared to previously, is the fact that the whole 'Israel vs Palestine' scenario has left people to hate Israelis - which they associate with being Jewish - and therefore hating Jews. This is ridiculous because there are even jewish people who believe the israeli government are breaking human rights laws. That is however where I believe the hatred & ignorance comes from, although it is thankfully a minority opinion by far.

Interested to hear others' opinions on this because I found it interesting and hopefully you guys will too

very interesting post but a song springs to mind to help me explain - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpWmlRNfLck

[letmein]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

I think the reason that the left has such an issue with Jewish people is because a lot of Jewish people are business minded so are more likely to be right wing, hence why I think some of the left has an issue with Jewish people.

And also there are your racist left (which I know isn't very common) but it does exist, but I think as the secondry thing to the usual right versus left scenario.

What can be ironic with the left though is that they probably defend one of the most right wing organizations out there.

And btw I'm on about in their day to day lives, not with terrorism.

Jews are overwhelmingly left-wing.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by letmein

Jews are overwhelmingly left-wing.

Livia, our voice from the left

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Livia, our voice from the left

I almost choked on my falafel then

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by MTVN

There has been a problem with the left and anti-semitism for a long time I think. It's different from the far-right - they hate Jews because of mad conspiracies about them controlling money and governments and the like - on the left the issue derives from their 'solidarity' with groups like Hamas and Hezbollah and their hatred for Israel. It is they who confuse anti-zionism with anti-semitism, not their critics.

So true. You have it in one Matt.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

Yeah that's the point I was trying to get at, you've said it much better. I feel like a lot of racists use the Israeli state as a way to incite hatred towards Jews which is entirely unacceptable but that's the reason why it persists on the left possibly? Because of the only one-sided sympathy thing?

You are correct about 'One-sided sympathy' Josh, but a much better phrase would be 'WRONG sided sympathy', because the greater majority who have sympathy for the Palestinians and who detest and blame Israel, are simply swallowing propaganda and do not know the truth or the history.