[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

As bit on the slide said a turd with a bow is still a turd. I think you are missing the point about Scotland and your friends at the SNP. If Labour can't claw some of those seats back they can't ever have enough votes to win a general election. Scotland has always been vital to Labour to win an election. A vote for Nicola Sturgeon in a general election is a vote for a Tory government.

Not strictly accurate.

There are only 4 elections out of the 9 elections won by Labour post war,where if there were no Scottish seats, Labour would not have been able to form the govt.
They are the election of 1950,1964 and the 2 held in 1974,February and October respectively.

All the others, 1945, 1966,1997,2001 and 2005,Labour would have been the govt in any event,without any Scottish seats, also in fact very comfortably still so in 1945,1966,1997 and 2001, a little tighter in 2005 but still would have had an overall majority.


However you are right,in that the Scottish picture does make things look worse for Labour at present.
The one consolation being, that the SNP,( if there was the chance no matter how small),to support a Labour led govt. rather than a Conservative one, they would for sure do so.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

What did Cameron ever say to suggest he was a lizard? Or that he was a Nazi... recalling your sig with him giving a Nazi salute. Mud gets slung on both sides. Thin skinned people don't last long in politics.

'Sauce for the goose...'

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Corbyn is so pie in the sky is hilarious

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Those with a natural leaning toward labour can say how wonderful the new leader is till the cows come home, it doesn't change the fact that even amongst many labour voters, the 2 potential leaders are not the correct candidate. Circumstances can change to make a candidate more acceptable, but to make it clear a turd with a bow on it, is still a turd, and I am afraid that peoples opinion is so low of the candidates, its beyond compare.

I am going to write a new song with that title - Thank you.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

What did Cameron ever say to suggest he was a lizard? Or that he was a Nazi... recalling your sig with him giving a Nazi salute. Mud gets slung on both sides. Thin skinned people don't last long in politics.

The sig that was objected to by someone with the thinnest skin ever?

Again what has been said that would classify either of these candidates as turds? I did ask the question first.

[joeysteele]

If Jeremy Corbyn would embrace electoral reform, that would appeal to many younger voters and those who believe a vote is wasted.

It still may not win him an election but he could make it that a Conservative party was left powerless with no majority to stop electoral reform, since all other Parties in the Commons would strongly support a change now.

That is one way forward, Blair talked about it, Brown and Miliband looked at it, it just takes someone to actually go for it now.
What an election it would be fought on that idea.
One thing is for sure, the Conservatives will never ever go for it.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

One thing is for sure, the Conservatives will never ever go for it.

It was the Conservatives that gave everyone the opportunity to vote for a change in the electoral system ... and what was the result again?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Turd with a bow... what is it Corbyn has suggested that would classify him as a turd?
And what was it that dressed it with a bow?

Originally Posted by Livia

What did Cameron ever say to suggest he was a lizard? Or that he was a Nazi... recalling your sig with him giving a Nazi salute. Mud gets slung on both sides. Thin skinned people don't last long in politics.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The sig that was objected to by someone with the thinnest skin ever?

Again what has been said that would classify either of these candidates as turds? I did ask the question first.

Are you two seriously having an argument about Poos and Dicky Bows?

ETA : is it a normal Bow or a dicky bow?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

It was the Conservatives that gave everyone the opportunity to vote for a change in the electoral system ... and what was the result again?

That was only to appease the Lib Dems,Conservative MPs however, much to the annoyance of the Lib Dems spoke out and some canvassed against the change.
Also it was AV, not really that substantial a change.

Also they allowed the referendum to be held right at the time they were starting the top down re-organisation of the NHS plan, which when the Lib Dems were supporting those plans,the tide swung heavily against the Lib Dems and Clegg in particular.

So a plan well and truly scuppered by the leaders of that coalition.
We need more than just AV however,people were also rightly not convinced that AV would change much really as to helping to make voting really count across the board..
A proper PR system would alter things dramatically, it will need one of the big parties to embrace it as a policy.

I hope that will be the Labour party who does,(John Mcdonnell is seemingly more sympathetic to the idea), as every other Party in the Commons would now support a change except for the Conservatives.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Are you two seriously having an argument about Poos and Dicky Bows?

ETA : is it a normal Bow or a dicky bow?

POST OF the DAY.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

That was only to appease the Lib Dems,Conservative MPs however, much to the annoyance of the Lib Dems spoke out and some canvassed against the change.
Also it was AV, not really that substantial a change.

Also they allowed the referendum to be held right at the time they were starting the top down re-organisation of the NHS plan, which when the Lib Dems were supporting those plans,the tide swung heavily against the Lib Dems and Clegg in particular.

So a plan well and truly scuppered by the leaders of that coalition.
We need more than just AV however,people were also rightly not convinced that AV would change much really as to helping to make voting really count across the board..
A proper PR system would alter things dramatically, it will need one of the big parties to embrace it as a policy.

I hope that will be the Labour party who does,(John Mcdonnell is seemingly more sympathetic to the idea), as every other Party in the Commons would now support a change except for the Conservatives.

ok, so what should we do, have a vote every year, every time someone thinks up a new voting system?

I mean, the tories made no secret of not wanting electoral change. so did labour ... they put forward a system that actually had the most possibility of getting support, and the public said no.

We all get angry at elections when they don't go our way, but constantly moaning about the system becomes very tiresome, to me anyway. There are many more important things in life to get worked up about I think. For a new system to get support it needs to be a lot more than the grass looks greener

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

ok, so what should we do, have a vote every year, every time someone thinks up a new voting system?

I mean, the tories made no secret of not wanting electoral change. so did labour ... they put forward a system that actually had the most possibility of getting support, and the public said no.

We all get angry at elections when they don't go our way, but constantly moaning about the system becomes very tiresome, to me anyway. There are many more important things in life to get worked up about I think. For a new system to get support it needs to be a lot more than the grass looks greener

I could not agree more.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Are you two seriously having an argument about Poos and Dicky Bows?

ETA : is it a normal Bow or a dicky bow?

It's NOT an argument, it's a debate!

It's the great turd debate of 2016

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Are you two seriously having an argument about Poos and Dicky Bows?

ETA : is it a normal Bow or a dicky bow?

I think it must be a dicky, it's closer to the area in question.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The sig that was objected to by someone with the thinnest skin ever?

Again what has been said that would classify either of these candidates as turds? I did ask the question first.

As you well know, I objected to your sig. Do you need me to spell out why? I don't have to have a thick skin so people can have a chuckle at the Nazis, I suspect you only used it because you knew it would offend. Anyway, I am not a politician neither am I aspiring to be one.

Turds, Lizards.... it's all the same. You can't object to someone calling your team a name when you've been slagging the other team since you joined.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Are you two seriously having an argument about Poos and Dicky Bows?

ETA : is it a normal Bow or a dicky bow?

i couldnt find an example with a bow .... can i change it to christmas hat

Spoiler:

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

As you well know, I objected to your sig. Do you need me to spell out why? I don't have to have a thick skin so people can have a chuckle at the Nazis, I suspect you only used it because you knew it would offend. Anyway, I am not a politician neither am I aspiring to be one.

Turds, Lizards.... it's all the same. You can't object to someone calling your team a name when you've been slagging the other team since you joined.

Oh was it you? I had no idea.

I don't object to the name I simply asked ( not from you incidentally ) what made them turds as I was curious.

I wouldn't 'slag' anyone.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i couldnt find an example with a bow .... can i change it to christmas hat

Spoiler:

Good ol Mr Hanky

[Johnnyuk123]

For me it was like watching this...

Youtube video

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

ok, so what should we do, have a vote every year, every time someone thinks up a new voting system?

I mean, the tories made no secret of not wanting electoral change. so did labour ... they put forward a system that actually had the most possibility of getting support, and the public said no.

We all get angry at elections when they don't go our way, but constantly moaning about the system becomes very tiresome, to me anyway. There are many more important things in life to get worked up about I think. For a new system to get support it needs to be a lot more than the grass looks greener

Actually it is hardly every year, the AV vote was 2011,over 5 years ago now.

I repeat, AV was not that big a change, what we need is a proposal for a full PR system of voting not AV.
Where parties that get over 10% of the votes at least get a fair proportion of seats too.

The Lib Dems got 8% in 2015, they got 8 seats, UKIP was around 13% and got only 1 seat.
We have now had 3 elections in a row where the leading party has had over 300 seats for only between 35% and 37% of the votes cast.

Also 'we do not need' a referendum either, just party policy for people to vote on in a general election.
PR was brought in for the European elections, the Welsh, Scottish and Irish assemblies too, all done without a referendum.
PR now for the national govt of the UK would just be bringing all in line with everything else around the UK and would be fairer.

As I believe in consensus politics too,I now see PR as the only way to bring together more the consensus minded MPs of all Parties,to maybe then actually work together more too.
Something that will never be achieved at all under this outdated current system, that was not designed really for multi party elections.

Also please don't play the party politics card with me, I am hammering here the Labour govts win in 2005 too, they got a 68 overall majority then, with only around 35% of the votes, as opposed to the Conservatives gaining just over 32%.
The 2010 govt was only made credible by the joining of the Lib Dems in full coalition, with their votes and seats won in that general election.

I balance my arguments whenever I can.