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06-11-2016, 07:06 PM | #26 | ||
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Remembering Kerry
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Well since you ask jaxie, you came at me with I said you were making no sense when all I actually said was one of your comments made no sense to me.
So I will take care what I say to you, and how, for fear of being accused of something I have not done. I have often agreed with you on many issues before and still see many of your points too. I just do not see any way of agreeing with your stance on this issue,which if I feel that way is my right to say so, just as you repeatedly do so with my points. You may also note however in fairness, I rarely now respond to you directly initially anyway,for the feeling I would get just as you have done now above. No offence meant, no offence intended at all but it was you yourself who stated clearly you likely never agreed with me, as in your very own post you say ''for once I agree with Joey''. Not much point in us debating much then really to just go round and round in circles, in my view anyway. Out of a whole long post you have instantly come back at me for that tiny comment. However you did indicate in that post that a general election would give the Conservatives the biggest overall majority ever, I felt the need to address that as I would say that is impossible now and would put loads of money that too. Last edited by joeysteele; 06-11-2016 at 07:08 PM. |
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06-11-2016, 07:17 PM | #27 | |||
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Senior Member
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As to your other comments, you told me that I made no sense to you twice in one post so I said that's hardly my fault if you don't get what I'm saying. I would hardly call that 'coming at you'. It makes a change for us to agree on something political so I remarked on it since I didn't quote you directly but agreed that a general election might be a good move at this point.
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06-11-2016, 07:47 PM | #28 | |||
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You know my methods
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i think if you cant make your point in 3 inches of text
you may have missed it |
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06-11-2016, 08:41 PM | #29 | ||
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User banned
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It seems your learned judges aren't as learned as you think. Gerard Batten has produced some evidence that their ruling was invalid and , as such, likely to be overturned in December. Looks like we may never have legally been in the EU in the first place - real can of worms. I suggest you watch his recent video on one of these threads before being so sure about what is and isn't legal. Battern is a Knowledgeable man who can wipe the floor with the likes of Miss Miller. |
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06-11-2016, 09:13 PM | #30 | ||
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Remembering Kerry
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Maybe you are correct in that there is a can of worms opened here, and maybe even much more will need to addressed. That however is only going to probably delay things much further and the implications of what you say,if they were in any way correct, will cause even bigger issues to be addressed as to governments past and present. I totally agree there should have been referenda to UK voters on the treaties that were all signed by both Conservative and Labour governments. However where that will then go is anyones guess. I will still hold to heeding the judgements of the learned Judges of the High Court meantime however. I am actually a Lawyer myself and like everyone working in or associated with law can always still learn more,I have strong respect for the law and will therefore take the word of judgement of Judges. Also how can anyone water the plans for leaving down when no one, MPs, voters or the media, not I or even you knows or has any idea whatsoever, what the plans of this govt even are in the broadest sense. If you do could you please enlighten us all. |
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06-11-2016, 09:23 PM | #31 | ||
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Remembering Kerry
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It is good we agree on a general election,it more than likely would as you say, end up with some increase of her overall majority on paper for the Conservatives but I am a democrat and if that is what voters vote for, then that is what they and we get. I am just not that sure she would get a really much bigger overall majority and lots can get sidetracked and even lost in election campaigns. Surprises can and often do occur that trip up leaders and parties. Thank you for agreeing a general election may be a good thing, I personally think, it could actually help sort a lot out and speed up the leaving process from the mandate it would then give to whatever party or parties came out as the government. It could even end up being a Conservative led govt; with UKIP support if a breakthrough for UKIP came. Fine, if that is what voters vote for. |
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06-11-2016, 09:35 PM | #32 | ||
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And the damage done by the total distain for the democratic voting process in this country from remoaners like Ms Miller will be irreversible. |
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06-11-2016, 09:49 PM | #33 | ||
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Remembering Kerry
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I am sorry but I see no damage to democratic voting process in the UK unless it is not used. Which is why I support the elected MPs of all parties just 18 months ago in a general election, being given a vote on the start and process of leaving. It is the same reason I would also support a general election on the issue to decide, if it did, which party or parties should be doing the negotiations. That is what I see as a good democratic voting process. Immigration control and the single market may well be the reasons likely a great majority of those who voted leave voted that way for,however again, not you, not I or anyone else can say they are the reasons that all who voted leave did so. Neither immigration or the single market were on the ballot papers to be ticked for the voters voting leave. You cannot say all who voted leave voted for those 2 things, people on here for instance, some voted leave in the main and just to take back control of our lawmaking. Nothing really to do with immigration strongly, I have read irritation, and they are right to feel that, that some people think that is all the leave voters voted for. Last edited by joeysteele; 06-11-2016 at 09:50 PM. |
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06-11-2016, 10:14 PM | #34 | ||
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Start of a slippery slope - Britain would no longer be a democracy. I can't imagine most britains would want to go down that path. |
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06-11-2016, 10:44 PM | #35 | ||
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Remembering Kerry
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The vote was narrowly to leave. How we leave, when we leave and on what terms played were referenced in no way on the ballot paper. I voted remain but now want the process done as quickly, easily and fairly for the whole UK as it can be. The only time a referendum result has been ignored in the UK was as I mentioned earlier, the Conservative govt of Margaret Thatcher dismissing the vote for devolution on a narrow majority in Scotland in the late 1970s. So I see no reason why, and no major party save the Lib Dems are advocating not executing fully the referendum result to leave the EU as a member. No one in the UK would want a referendum or any vote of the voters ignored. Quite frankly that is not even being done here. It is clear Labour would not vote down triggering article 50, so there is no reason in order to get things moving whereby the govt could not just hold a vote to set things off. Which could have been done months ago already. What are you so scared of as to elected MPs voting on very serious constitutional change for the whole of the UK, which actually should be their duty. Why fear voters again in a general election, which would open up a lot of issues the public would hear as to leaving, and then give a strong new mandate to a party or parties to go ahead with the full process. What is it you and others fear of that democratic voting process that you would rather it was not permitted at all, for MPs or even the voters. You call that democracy and restoring powers back to the UK parliament, because it doesn't sound very democratic or restoring anything back to the UK parliament to me, I am sorry to say. |
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07-11-2016, 02:24 AM | #36 | |||
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Senior Member
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"The vote was narrowly to leave."
Over a million votes is not Narrow in my view. Narrow would be 100. Fact |
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07-11-2016, 05:48 AM | #37 | ||
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I don't know why you keep saying people fear a public vote - we have already had a public vote and the will of the majority was very clear. Believe me if the result had gone the other way and the leave camp wanted to interfere and change what was voted for the remainerswould be very unhappy. You can dress it up but that is what the remoaners are trying to do. The vote is complete. Of course how we go about it needs to be discussed but the core wishes of the majority cannot be changed. |
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07-11-2016, 06:59 AM | #38 | |||
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Likes cars that go boom
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Maybe in time brexir will be shown to be as damaging?... Gina Millar was fantastic in her succinct explanations to Farage, I thought he was going to implode
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07-11-2016, 09:03 AM | #39 | |||
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I don't believe I've ever given my opinions on military action, though I'm not talking about my views on it now. The point I was making is if we are going to politically micro manage everything the government does then yes, where was all this legal intervention then when decisions were made to send planes and troops to other countries? Didnt that deserve all this new scrutiny? No one seemed too bothered then. To keep harping on about Brexit being damaging simply shows how uninformed you are about the EU.
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In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this. Terry Pratchett “I am thrilled to be alive at time when humanity is pushing against the limits of understanding. Even better, we may eventually discover that there are no limits.” ― Richard Dawkins Last edited by jaxie; 07-11-2016 at 09:05 AM. |
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07-11-2016, 09:27 AM | #40 | |||
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07-11-2016, 09:32 AM | #41 | |||
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Fighting the PC Culture
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If Brexit is delayed or stopped maybe you will need a president Trump to free you from the EU clutches?
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07-11-2016, 10:22 AM | #42 | ||
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Remembering Kerry
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Brexit cannot be stopped because the public voted in a referendum to cease our membership of the EU,
That is the only concrete decision made there is anywhere at present. How that is done has in fact many paths to the exiting process however. Forgive me if I have this wrong, jaxie it appears wants a hard brexit if possible, that is fine and is what they want and see the as the best way for the UK. Jaxie could well be right that it is and will be proven to be. I always admire conviction to any cause when it is handled as enthusiastically as for instance Jaxie has. For someone like myself and may I add Kizzy, we would prefer a more moderated brexit,one that retains some of what we see, (not what anyone else may think is not there),of the things that have been of benefit to the UK. This could also possiblybe right and the best thing for the UK overall. This is why I would in the light of the referendum narrow result,( Nigel Farage stated when it looked like a 52/48 result for remain, that remain had just 'scraped a win' and he'd have been right),I would now prefer to see a general election where the same people who decided the referendum, now also get to choose what exit process they really want and who to do it. I said on another thread, you would have David Davis and Theresa May for the Conservatives likely advocating that harder exit line. Fine again if that is their position and plan. Labour would probably be advocating a lesser kind of brexit, such as remaining in the single market and maybe even a lesser action again as to the free movement of EU citizens. again fine, if that is the position they take. The Lib Dems would likely make it about seeking to remain in the EU, which in my opinion would fly in the face of the vote in the referendum. UKIP we know would be in line with a harder brexit, they always have been consistent in that and at least we know where we truly are with them as tot his issue. Just those very broad outlines however is a choice in itself. Now it may well be that those who voted remain would get behind parties on the less harder brexit plans. I would doubt many would actually go for the harder brexit of those who voted remain. Then the same general election with those very basic guidelines and choices presented,would enable all those who voted leave to demonstrate clearly what exit strategy they really want and voted for too. If they all wanted a harder brexit like say jaxie, fine they will vote for that and the result will come back loud and clear on that. However maybe some wo voted leave do not want the harder exit strategy so may file off to a lesser exit strategy on offer. The one thing that is certain from a general election, will be that the voters will not only have decided the UK must leave as a member of the EU but they will in that election too, choose the type of leaving they really want along with who and what party or parties they want to negotiate it. I fear nothing at all from such a election,the voters will get their choice totally,they will also be voting with the hindsight of all that has gone on since the June referendum too. The only people who need to fear voting are those who think they may likely lose. In a democracy voting is the way forward on all things,I was one who lost the argument in the EU referendum as I was for remain, however now I want to see the exiting done. I would prefer it done however with authority of how it is to be done, by at least all the elected MPs voting as to it in Westminster but preferably via a general election, where the real choice of how and when we leave of both the remain and leave voters across the whole of the UK, can then be made and known for certain. Whatever the outcome of the then done negotiations and final deal cannot be moaned at by anyone, as full consultation, as much as there could be,would have been done for the process. After that narrow majority of only 3.8% out of a total of over 33 million voters. No micro management at all, just a broad set of guidelines to hopefully achieve. It is surprising this is not the present govts; aim too to be honest. |
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07-11-2016, 11:33 AM | #43 | |||
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Senior Member
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But this is my personal view. I also accept other people want other things so there may have to be some compromise. And thank you for actually reading what I've said rather than just dismissing it like others with a different view do. I admire you for that.
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In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this. Terry Pratchett “I am thrilled to be alive at time when humanity is pushing against the limits of understanding. Even better, we may eventually discover that there are no limits.” ― Richard Dawkins Last edited by jaxie; 07-11-2016 at 11:35 AM. |
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