[Kizzy]

Just read an article that didn't surprise me in the slightest and I feel the reason it has come to light is the NHS now faces the same existential threat under our current govt.
Can it survive, what will be the implications if it doesen't?


'Margaret Thatcher secretly tried to press ahead with a politically toxic plan to dismantle the welfare state even after a “cabinet riot” and her famous declaration that the “NHS is safe with us”, newly released Treasury documents show.

The plan commissioned by Thatcher and her chancellor Sir Geoffrey Howe included proposals to charge for state schooling, introduce compulsory private health insurance and a system of private medical facilities that “would, of course, mean the end of the National Health Service”.

Some of her cabinet ministers believed they had buried the plan, drawn up by a seconded Treasury official, Alan Bailey, from the Central Policy Review Staff (CPRS), at a special cabinet meeting on 9 September 1982.

Nigel Lawson in his memoirs said the paper of “long-term public spending options” had been buried after what he described as “the nearest thing to a cabinet riot in the history of the Thatcher administration”. In her own memoirs, Thatcher claimed to have been “horrified” by the CPRS paper and insisted that she and her ministers had never seriously considered it.

The CPRS paper had been partially leaked and she was only able to quell the subsequent furore by famously pledging the “NHS is safe with us” at the October 1982 Tory party conference. Downing Street briefed that the toxic plan had been “shelved”.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ite-nhs-pledge

[jaxie]

I don't think the NHS is particularly safe in any governing hands but they also know tampering with it too much is fairly non negotiable with the public so they don't dare mess with it too much.

[joeysteele]

I still maintain the view that the NHS is likely far safer in the hands of Labour than the Conservatives, Lib Dems and UKIP.

To be fair to UKIP, they do believe in a free NHS for near al but have some selective issues that may bother me.
I really can never get a full account of just what they mean as to the NHS, on the many times I have talked to UKIP supporters they don't clear up the confusions I have had as to their real likely policy either.

The Conservatives are damaging the NHS,and will continue to do so, they are the party I in no way trust as to the NHS at all now.
I do not believe a word they say as to it when they say it is safe with them

neither now the Lib Dems either, how you could have a coalition govt. with no party setting out in the 2010 election a full re-organisation of the NHS.
A re-organisation denied repeatedly by David Cameron that one would never happen under his premiership.
For both parties to then put through legislation of a top down re-organisation of same was unbelievable and so they lost my trust completely on the issue.

This present govts. treatment of the junior Doctors too only makes me more hostile to believing any of their words as to the NHS.

However I cannot let Labour off the hook here either, they fiddled a bit with the NHS in their 13 years in power, leading to big problems in it too.
However I do believe they, with the Lib Dems too, in 2009/10 were coming to better plan for the NHS, with the integration of good social care packages too.

For me, wile we have all these trust managers and their endless number of 'clipboard' staff sucking wages and life out of the NHS,things will stay difficult.

I eagerly wait to hear some party state that trust managers need to be replaced with people who also really understand hands on care and are not looking for titles and nice offices.
I really think Labour should have done something about trust managers rather than uphold them while in office, made them far more accountable for things going wrong n the NHS and their respective hospitals under their charge.

However they didn't and they also left the door open for this Conservative party to mislead voters as to re-organisation and ten go on to cause more confusion, disillusionment and disarray among NHS staff across the board.
By their dictatorial approach rather than a consulting approach.

I do not think the NHS is safe at present at all, already some of my family who work in it have left it completely,saying the plans for it are risking more lives.
I despair at anyone who wants the NHS to be really more secure, voting for the Conservative party again.
If there is one party at present who cannot be trusted with the NHS, for me that is by far the Conservative party, especially under this current leadership.

There needs to be a much better plan from Labour too as to the NHS but really I believe for as long as the NHS is like Education, a political football, pulling part what the previous govt. does with each, then the NHS will get nowhere fast.
We need it to be a separate issue from party politics,with agreement and consensus agreed by the working together of the main and even all parties preferably.
So that when govts. change, the policy for the NHS does not and continuity and stability gets a chance to work for all.
I doubt that will ever come while we have this now hopeless in my view, electoral system in the UK.

[UserSince2005]

I trust them

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I still maintain the view that the NHS is likely far safer in the hands of Labour than the Conservatives, Lib Dems and UKIP.

To be fair to UKIP, they do believe in a free NHS for near al but have some selective issues that may bother me.
I really can never get a full account of just what they mean as to the NHS, on the many times I have talked to UKIP supporters they don't clear up the confusions I have had as to their real likely policy either.

The Conservatives are damaging the NHS,and will continue to do so, they are the party I in no way trust as to the NHS at all now.
I do not believe a word they say as to it when they say it is safe with them

neither now the Lib Dems either, how you could have a coalition govt. with no party setting out in the 2010 election a full re-organisation of the NHS.
A re-organisation denied repeatedly by David Cameron that one would never happen under his premiership.
For both parties to then put through legislation of a top down re-organisation of same was unbelievable and so they lost my trust completely on the issue.

This present govts. treatment of the junior Doctors too only makes me more hostile to believing any of their words as to the NHS.

However I cannot let Labour off the hook here either, they fiddled a bit with the NHS in their 13 years in power, leading to big problems in it too.
However I do believe they, with the Lib Dems too, in 2009/10 were coming to better plan for the NHS, with the integration of good social care packages too.

For me, wile we have all these trust managers and their endless number of 'clipboard' staff sucking wages and life out of the NHS,things will stay difficult.

I eagerly wait to hear some party state that trust managers need to be replaced with people who also really understand hands on care and are not looking for titles and nice offices.
I really think Labour should have done something about trust managers rather than uphold them while in office, made them far more accountable for things going wrong n the NHS and their respective hospitals under their charge.

However they didn't and they also left the door open for this Conservative party to mislead voters as to re-organisation and ten go on to cause more confusion, disillusionment and disarray among NHS staff across the board.
By their dictatorial approach rather than a consulting approach.

I do not think the NHS is safe at present at all, already some of my family who work in it have left it completely,saying the plans for it are risking more lives.
I despair at anyone who wants the NHS to be really more secure, voting for the Conservative party again.
If there is one party at present who cannot be trusted with the NHS, for me that is by far the Conservative party, especially under this current leadership.

There needs to be a much better plan from Labour too as to the NHS but really I believe for as long as the NHS is like Education, a political football, pulling part what the previous govt. does with each, then the NHS will get nowhere fast.
We need it to be a separate issue from party politics,with agreement and consensus agreed by the working together of the main and even all parties preferably.
So that when govts. change, the policy for the NHS does not and continuity and stability gets a chance to work for all.
I doubt that will ever come while we have this now hopeless in my view, electoral system in the UK.

Thank you Joey I agree it should very much be a separate issue, it should like pensions be triple locked imo.
The trusts and clinical 'managers' were a terrible idea, the NHS is not a business first and yet was run like one leaving clinical staff tearing their hair out at some of the decisions made

[Johnnyuk123]

The NHS is in safe hands at last with the tory party.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Thank you Joey I agree it should very much be a separate issue, it should like pensions be triple locked imo.
The trusts and clinical 'managers' were a terrible idea, the NHS is not a business first and yet was run like one leaving clinical staff tearing their hair out at some of the decisions made

I have felt this since I was 16 Kizzy.

I grumbled at some things Labour were doing with the NHS and I have always disliked the trust manager set up and their endless numbers of staff on sort of office duties.

However towards the end of the Labour govts. time in power, Andy Burnham and the Lib Dems too were in very constructive talks as to the NHS and the need to integrate better social care too.
The Conservatives were invited to be part of those consensus talks too but Andrew Lansley and therefore the Conservative party walked away from them.

The NHS is still reeling from the top down re-organisation done, after voters being promised it would not be done by the Conservatives, and staff are still not up to speed with that yet.
Now you have the demoralised junior Doctors and even a Conservative MP stating that the extra funds into the NHS this govt. says it is giving, are not a reality, and it is just shifting funds around.

This is why the Conservatives of all the parties,in my view, cannot be believed as to what they say about the NHS, their actions do not match their words.
Which is why,I think, until the NHS is made independent of party politics, no long term solution to problems are ever going to be found and certainly not by this present govt.
I would love to see all parties agreeing a proper funding set up for the NHS, that takes into account the new technology and equipment needed, and much moreso,a stable set of policy making as to it that stays in place no matter what govt. comes into power, to ensure continuity as I said before.

Stop this football approach with it and setting out on costly unnecessary re-organisations and also not deliberately picking squabbles with NHS staff, whether that be Nurses or Doctors or both as we have now.

The NHS should be safe with all parties but it is not,in my view, from their actions this last 6+ years now,with the present Conservative party.

[jennyjuniper]

Bring back the matrons, who ruled the hospitals with an iron hand, but got things done. The matron wasn't all about the profit margin, just ensured that the hospital was clean, well run, without excessive waste and that patients were looked after.

[DemolitionRed]

US 20% GDP
UK 9 % GDP
That 11 % of GDP is a mighty tempting prise for our political masters and there backers.

Of course our NHS isn't safe. Thatcher and Blair took the marrow and the Tory party have been chewing the same bone ever since.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Just read an article that didn't surprise me in the slightest and I feel the reason it has come to light is the NHS now faces the same existential threat under our current govt.
Can it survive, what will be the implications if it doesen't?


'Margaret Thatcher secretly tried to press ahead with a politically toxic plan to dismantle the welfare state even after a “cabinet riot” and her famous declaration that the “NHS is safe with us”, newly released Treasury documents show.

The plan commissioned by Thatcher and her chancellor Sir Geoffrey Howe included proposals to charge for state schooling, introduce compulsory private health insurance and a system of private medical facilities that “would, of course, mean the end of the National Health Service”.

Some of her cabinet ministers believed they had buried the plan, drawn up by a seconded Treasury official, Alan Bailey, from the Central Policy Review Staff (CPRS), at a special cabinet meeting on 9 September 1982.

Nigel Lawson in his memoirs said the paper of “long-term public spending options” had been buried after what he described as “the nearest thing to a cabinet riot in the history of the Thatcher administration”. In her own memoirs, Thatcher claimed to have been “horrified” by the CPRS paper and insisted that she and her ministers had never seriously considered it.

The CPRS paper had been partially leaked and she was only able to quell the subsequent furore by famously pledging the “NHS is safe with us” at the October 1982 Tory party conference. Downing Street briefed that the toxic plan had been “shelved”.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ite-nhs-pledge

It isn't safe under any government. The Tories are trying to dismantle it so they can privatise it whilst Labour will continue to make NHS care available to an ever-increasing number of people who have never paid in to the system, and likely never will, which will lead to the collapse of the system anyway.

It is common sense that if more people are taking out than are paying in then the system will not be able to sustain itself.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

US 20% GDP
UK 9 % GDP
That 11 % of GDP is a mighty tempting prise for our political masters and there backers.

Of course our NHS isn't safe. Thatcher and Blair took the marrow and the Tory party have been chewing the same bone ever since.

Hey, welcome back DemRed, hope you are okay.
I agree with what you say above.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Hey, welcome back DemRed, hope you are okay.
I agree with what you say above.

Thanks joey. I'm fine ty

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It isn't safe under any government. The Tories are trying to dismantle it so they can privatise it whilst Labour will continue to make NHS care available to an ever-increasing number of people who have never paid in to the system, and likely never will, which will lead to the collapse of the system anyway.

It is common sense that if more people are taking out than are paying in then the system will not be able to sustain itself.

Every employed person in this country is expected to contribute to state pension payments and public services like the NHS. Employed people pay for the unemployed; the NHS don’t cough up or use their budget to compensate a sick unemployed person.

As for foreigners, the NHS, just like all other country in Europe, has residency conditions that have to be met. Failure to reach these conditions means you will have to pay for everything and unless its emergency treatment, you will be expected to pay up front.

[DemolitionRed]

This is an interesting link https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/project...nding-compared

The UK spends a smaller proportion of its GDP on health care than countries such as Portugal, France and the Netherlands. It spends a larger proportion than countries such as Spain, Finland and Ireland. This data includes private spending on health care, which in the United Kingdom is only 1.5 per cent.

The predicted budget for the NHS in 2020/21 will of gone up by £35 billion since 2009/10 but £24 billion of that will have been swallowed up by inflation. The real increase is £11 billion which is actually very little when you consider population growth and higher budgetary taxation.

[Kizzy]

I would say the reason for the increase in funding is due to the profit generating areas of the NHS being sold off, why would that happen?
It happened with the rail networks with the northern line being particularly lucrative, next thing it's in private hands...My theory is MPs with fingers in too many pies.

How many MPs and lords have links to private healthcare providers? There's the reason for the NHS deficit, it's been sucked dry by our parasitic 'elite'.


Hello DR!!! Soo happy to see you

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Every employed person in this country is expected to contribute to state pension payments and public services like the NHS. Employed people pay for the unemployed; the NHS don’t cough up or use their budget to compensate a sick unemployed person.

As for foreigners, the NHS, just like all other country in Europe, has residency conditions that have to be met. Failure to reach these conditions means you will have to pay for everything and unless its emergency treatment, you will be expected to pay up front.

The problem with that is that many don't pay which is why Peterborough hospital expect people to provide documentation such as passports to prove their entitlement, as these people have cost us millions. Seems some people don't like that. But hopefully every hospital in the country will do the same.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I would say the reason for the increase in funding is due to the profit generating areas of the NHS being sold off, why would that happen?
It happened with the rail networks with the northern line being particularly lucrative, next thing it's in private hands...My theory is MPs with fingers in too many pies.

How many MPs and lords have links to private healthcare providers? There's the reason for the NHS deficit, it's been sucked dry by our parasitic 'elite'.


Hello DR!!! Soo happy to see you

Waves to Kizzy

Some time ago I posted a link on here with a list of MPs and Lords with a vested interest in the spoils of the NHS.

We are all ****ed.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Waves to Kizzy

Some time ago I posted a link on here with a list of MPs and Lords with a vested interest in the spoils of the NHS.

We are all ****ed.

Ah... That might be where I saw it * goes to find it *

You have no idea how happy I am to see you

[Johnnyuk123]

Teresa May is doing a wonderful job right now during these difficult times. Well done Mrs May and keep up the good work, Britain needs you.

[Kizzy]

Found this....

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...l-list-4646154

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

The problem with that is that many don't pay which is why Peterborough hospital expect people to provide documentation such as passports to prove their entitlement, as these people have cost us millions. Seems some people don't like that. But hopefully every hospital in the country will do the same.

Its a very complex business getting free medical treatment in the UK if you're a none EU national. Its EEA residents slipping through the admin net that costs the NHS literally hundreds of millions a year.

EEA residents have to carry a valid health insurance card when travelling around or residing in EU countries. If they don’t carry this card (which is free to all EEA members) they have to pay up front for all but emergency/ life dependent treatment. For the card carrying EEA member, all he has to do is walk into a GP practice or A&E and show his card. Details ‘SHOULD’ be taken so that medical fees can be charged directly back to their country. That insurance card simply insures reimbursement of costs

The problem starts and ends with our NHS administration system. We simply don’t bother claiming back the massive amount of fees owed to us. Its not the foreigners who are abusing the system, it’s the abysmal way admin has been trained to handle these reimbursements.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Found this....

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...l-list-4646154

They're all at it! Its just like watching a bigger version of the mafia.