[DemolitionRed]

This video is about a passage from Plato's Republic, it's about how democracy can give way to tyranny. How people, tiring of the endless choices and decisions in a democracy, the insecurities, will put their faith in a leader, a strong man, who promises to ease all of the burdens a democracy places on its citizens. This is after a period where old social structures start to break down and "elites" are distrusted. Sound familiar to anyone?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38664789

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

This video is about a passage from Plato's Republic, it's about how democracy can give way to tyranny. How people, tiring of the endless choices and decisions in a democracy, the insecurities, will put their faith in a leader, a strong man, who promises to ease all of the burdens a democracy places on its citizens. This is after a period where old social structures start to break down and "elites" are distrusted. Sound familiar to anyone?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38664789

It can't be worse than the tyranny of many idiolistic religious dictatorships, especially for 50% of the population.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It can't be worse than the tyranny of many idiolistic religious dictatorships, especially for 50% of the population.

How do we know it can't be worse?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

How do we know it can't be worse?

Because I have at least an average IQ.

Seriously are you attempting to suggest there is any merit, particularly for women, to have all their rights removed by a dictatorship, especially those of a religious persuasion who tend to view a female role very much as one of sub-mission believing they should have no say in their own lives. Such dictatorships create a perfect environment for physical and sexual abuse.

[Kizzy]

If not kept in check I'd say it's at risk of corruption, any voting system can be rigged, gerrymandering, misinformation, propaganda, mistruths and media influence all add to this.
You think you have a choice? You don't.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

If not kept in check I'd say it's at risk of corruption, any voting system can be rigged, gerrymandering, misinformation, propaganda, mistruths and media influence all add to this.
You think you have a choice? You don't.

There is a choice - some choice or no choice.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Because I have at least an average IQ.

Seriously are you attempting to suggest there is any merit, particularly for women, to have all their rights removed by a dictatorship, especially those of a religious persuasion who tend to view a female role very much as one of sub-mission believing they should have no say in their own lives. Such dictatorships create a perfect environment for physical and sexual abuse.

Did you actually watch the video? because you seem to of missed the point spectacularly.

If you want to discuss women’s rights within a dictatorship, then you are merely trying to change the topic.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Did you actually watch the video? because you seem to of missed the point spectacularly.

If you want to discuss women’s rights within a dictatorship, then you are merely trying to change the topic.

Comes across as anti-Trump rhetoric from the BBC - not exactly any surprise from them.

[Northern Monkey]

Sounds interesting.I'll check it out later when have time

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It can't be worse than the tyranny of many idiolistic religious dictatorships, especially for 50% of the population.

So because it's not a religious oligarchy, it must be OK? Is this really where we're headed? Not questioning things because "some other things are worse"?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

So because it's not a religious oligarchy, it must be OK? Is this really where we're headed? Not questioning things because "some other things are worse"?

People can question it all they like but as a dictatorship is the opposite of democracy it is seemingly being suggested that a dictatorship may be preferable to democracy. Smacks of an agenda to me.

I doubt many who have lived their lives under a democracy, with the power of free thought, would agree, except perhaps for those with emotional issues who are desperately looking for an 'answer' to their problems. I doubt they would find that answer under a dictatorship.

Is there a middle ground that offers some alternative? Please enlighten me.
Unless you can come up with something that would change human nature I fail to see what else there is.

That video is just being used to paint Trump as the next Hitler and is just the BBC trying to take advantage of what they perceive as a susceptible audience - a weak attempt to rock the boat.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

There is a choice - some choice or no choice.

ok

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

People can question it all they like but as a dictatorship is the opposite of democracy it is seemingly being suggested that a dictatorship may be preferable to democracy. Smacks of an agenda to me.

I doubt many who have lived their lives under a democracy, with the power of free thought, would agree, except perhaps for those with emotional issues who are desperately looking for an 'answer' to their problems. I doubt they would find that answer under a dictatorship.

Is there a middle ground that offers some alternative? Please enlighten me.
Unless you can come up with something that would change human nature I fail to see what else there is.

That video is just being used to paint Trump as the next Hitler and is just the BBC trying to take advantage of what they perceive as a susceptible audience - a weak attempt to rock the boat.

Have you read any Plato? You've missed the point spectacularly. Where are you getting the idea that there's any suggestion that "A dictatorship is preferable to democracy"?? No no no. The concept is that after a long period of democracy, the population will become lazy, comfortable, easily scared by outside threats, and rather than actually wanting to continue to engage with democracy, they will "give up", and surrender themselves to dictator-like "strong man" rulers who will "make things great" and "keep them safe (and comfortable)".

In other words, a man like Trump, or the "daddy state" Tory government. People will WILLINGLY surrender (and are doing so) their freedoms and liberties in exchange for the "protection" of a tyrant. DR's suggestion (one that I agree with) is that we are seeing this happening, right now, and at an increasing pace.

[Tom4784]

TS and DR have it spot on, pretty much.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Have you read any Plato? You've missed the point spectacularly. Where are you getting the idea that there's any suggestion that "A dictatorship is preferable to democracy"?? No no no. The concept is that after a long period of democracy, the population will become lazy, comfortable, easily scared by outside threats, and rather than actually wanting to continue to engage with democracy, they will "give up", and surrender themselves to dictator-like "strong man" rulers who will "make things great" and "keep them safe (and comfortable)".

In other words, a man like Trump, or the "daddy state" Tory government. People will WILLINGLY surrender (and are doing so) their freedoms and liberties in exchange for the "protection" of a tyrant. DR's suggestion (one that I agree with) is that we are seeing this happening, right now, and at an increasing pace.

Thank you for taking the time to explain things.

[DemolitionRed]

Modern day democracy is little different to the democracies of old…class conflict in our democratic pursuit to be equal... materialistic greed and fear that glorifies profitable conflicts and rewards our ruthless robbers with new lands, obedient servants and worldly power.

Neutralizing the power of the majority and dividing its citizens whilst creating an unbalance of power is a potential recipe for tyrannical rule.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Have you read any Plato? You've missed the point spectacularly. Where are you getting the idea that there's any suggestion that "A dictatorship is preferable to democracy"?? No no no. The concept is that after a long period of democracy, the population will become lazy, comfortable, easily scared by outside threats, and rather than actually wanting to continue to engage with democracy, they will "give up", and surrender themselves to dictator-like "strong man" rulers who will "make things great" and "keep them safe (and comfortable)".

In other words, a man like Trump, or the "daddy state" Tory government. People will WILLINGLY surrender (and are doing so) their freedoms and liberties in exchange for the "protection" of a tyrant. DR's suggestion (one that I agree with) is that we are seeing this happening, right now, and at an increasing pace.

I am fully aware of what the video was trying to say and how it was trying to paint Trump as a future dictator (Eg Hitler) and in my opinion this is an attempt at scaremongering, as there are a lot of scared people with all the uncertainty over Brexit and Trump.

In my opinion that video was a weak attempt at taking advantage of the situation and attempting to make people question their own belief systems and decisions they have made regarding Brexit and Trump.

I think it ridiculous to imply our own government and Trump are attempting to get British and American citizens to 'give ip democracy' and their freedoms. Neither are a dictatorship. The whole thing is extremely manipulative.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I am fully aware of what the video was trying to say and how it was trying to paint Trump as a future dictator (Eg Hitler) and in my opinion this is an attempt at scaremongering, as there are a lot of scared people with all the uncertainty over Brexit and Trump.

In my opinion that video was a weak attempt at taking advantage of the situation and attempting to make people question their own belief systems and decisions they have made regarding Brexit and Trump.

I think it ridiculous to imply our own government and Trump are attempting to get British and American citizens to 'give ip democracy' and their freedoms. Neither are a dictatorship. The whole thing is extremely manipulative.

We ARE giving up freedoms year on year. That's not a debate, it's a straightforward fact. And not an "alternative fact" either.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I am fully aware of what the video was trying to say and how it was trying to paint Trump as a future dictator (Eg Hitler) and in my opinion this is an attempt at scaremongering, as there are a lot of scared people with all the uncertainty over Brexit and Trump.

In my opinion that video was a weak attempt at taking advantage of the situation and attempting to make people question their own belief systems and decisions they have made regarding Brexit and Trump.

I think it ridiculous to imply our own government and Trump are attempting to get British and American citizens to 'give ip democracy' and their freedoms. Neither are a dictatorship. The whole thing is extremely manipulative.

Like TS says, democracy is becoming more and more questionable.

And I think it was appropriate to use Trump in that video because its right wing America that appear to be doubting the democratic system and the reckless electorates that voted him in are the same people who believe ‘white America’ needs to go back to its roots and if that takes regime change, there appears to be plenty of loyal partisans.

[the truth]

Liberalism leads to tyranny and bankruptcy

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by the truth

Liberalism leads to tyranny and bankruptcy

You forgot that it leads to terrorism, and destroys our music and publishing industries.

[Northern Monkey]

So basically there is no perfect system.All paths lead to the same outcome?You can start with tyranny or get there much slower.Democracy leads to option paralysis and the people start to crave authoritarianism?
Depressing.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

So basically there is no perfect system.All paths lead to the same outcome?You can start with tyranny or get there much slower.Democracy leads to option paralysis and the people start to crave authoritarianism?
Depressing.

Plato just happens to be a philosopher we can relate to because we've been able to see his predictions on real politics play out over the centuries. Democracy doesn't have to lead to tyranny so long as we have the right balance.

Plato (Greek philosopher) wrote, Democracy’s key feature is that everyone becomes a lover of tolerance, but he also stated that tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society.

Plato described how unrestrained freedom or unbalanced freedoms would eventually lead to unrestrained financial irresponsibility and with not enough money to go round, bickering and fighting would result, leading to chaos and anarchy. That people will begin to look for someone to come along and fix the mess... A leader of men... a Master.

He notes,"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Plato warns "Democracy without virtue would end in chaos out of which a tyrant would arise."

http://freedomoutpost.com/plato-explains-tyrants-arise/

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Plato just happens to be a philosopher we can relate to because we've been able to see his predictions on real politics play out over the centuries. Democracy doesn't have to lead to tyranny so long as we have the right balance.

Plato (Greek philosopher) wrote, Democracy’s key feature is that everyone becomes a lover of tolerance, but he also stated that tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society.

Plato described how unrestrained freedom or unbalanced freedoms would eventually lead to unrestrained financial irresponsibility and with not enough money to go round, bickering and fighting would result, leading to chaos and anarchy. That people will begin to look for someone to come along and fix the mess... A leader of men... a Master.

He notes,"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Plato warns "Democracy without virtue would end in chaos out of which a tyrant would arise."

http://freedomoutpost.com/plato-explains-tyrants-arise/

A clever man.The first quote is eerily familiar.I would say that there is possibly no such thing as a completely "virtuous people".Greed appears in almost everyone and given the opportunity to capitalise on it a large percentage of people will.It is a dog eat dog world.
I have actually been meaning to read some Plato and Socrates at some point after i've finished with the Bible.Very interesting.

[Toy Soldier]

It's worth noting really that those early philosophers lived in what were mankind's first democracies. Different in many ways to modern ones but similar in concept, obviously. These civilisations were wealthy, and powerful, and comfortable enough for most... And they DID crumble. It's easy to see the progression of history through time as an upwards progression but it really isn't one. These societies (ancient Greeks, the Roman Empire) were FAR more advanced in many ways than Europe in feudal times... A thousand or more years later. It's worth remembering. In 500 years people (if there are any) may well be sat around pondering, "Isn't it weird that society was more advanced in 2000 than in 2250?"