[DemolitionRed]

Jewish Labour Party members slam decision to suspend Ken Livingstone

http://freespeechonisrael.org.uk/jew...n-livingstone/

Statement from Jewish Labour Party members who gave evidence in support of Ken Livingstone at his hearing for alleged conduct prejudicial and/or grossly detrimental to the Labour Party.
No justification for claiming all Jews are offended by Nazi/Zionism remarks
Views critical of Zionism are not antisemitic
It is contrary to freedom of expression to ban such opinions.

We are alarmed that the Labour Party’s National Constitutional Committee has bowed to demands for the suspension of Ken Livingstone, excluding him from the life of the party until April 2018.

Having failed to make a case that he was guilty of antisemitic conduct, his accusers alleged that he was nonetheless guilty of conduct grossly detrimental to the party because, according to them, he had upset the UK’s Jewish population. The grounds put forward for this were Ken Livingstone’s references to a temporary agreement prior to World War II, between some Zionist leaders and Hitler’s Nazi Party, to facilitate the emigration of a number of Jews from Germany. The Zionist motivation was to increase the numbers of Jews going to Palestine.

In our evidence to the NCC we explained that those claiming offence on behalf of all Jews have no justification for doing so. Such a claim deliberately ignores the views of large numbers of Jewish people, both in the Labour Party and in society at large. These are people who, like us, find their identity in a different tradition to the Zionist one; or who, while continuing to believe in the Zionist ideal, are deeply uncomfortable about ongoing inroads into free speech and believe that the history of the Zionist movement must be open to scrutiny.

The decision to suspend Ken is mistaken. It is an attempt to protect Israel from criticism, while simultaneously weakening the position of the pro-Palestinian Left in the party. It is the verdict, not Ken Livingstone, that has bought the Labour Party into disrepute.

[DemolitionRed]

Of the many letters sent to the Labour Party from Jewish citizens, this one says it all.

Walter Wolfgang
I am a Jewish member of the Labour Party and was a member of its National Executive Committee from 2006 to 2008. I regard anti-Semitism as an extremely serious issue.

I am 93 years old. I was born in Germany in 1923. My family were persecuted by the Nazis. In 1937, at the age of 13, I left Germany and came to live in Britain. It was the strength of my commitment to Judaism and Jewish ethical values of human equality which caused me to join the Labour Party in 1948.

The Nazis embraced this vile ideology of anti-Semitism and exterminated six million Jews. Allegations of anti-Semitism should be made only when people express hostility to Jewish people because they are Jewish. Such allegations should not be made when this is not the case. It is not anti-Semitic to hold or express views about the government of Israel or about Zionism.

Ken Livingstone has an outstanding record of fighting against racism and anti-Semitism. Labour’s National Constitutional Committee hearing into Ken’s actions is a travesty. His public defence of Naz Shah MP in April 2016 was not offensive and did not involved him in making any concession to anti-Semitism.

Ken Livingstone’s remarks in April 2016 about the Transfer Agreement were broadly correct. Hitler was in favour of Jews leaving Germany for Palestine. The agreements reached between the Nazis and some Zionists are simply indisputable facts.

Advocacy of Jews leaving Palestine was made by some Jews who were Zionist, some non-Jews who were anti-Semitic, by some non-Jews who were friendly and some who were indifferent to Jews. Anti-Semitism is hostility to Jews because of religion, race or ethnicity. It is nothing else. Many Jews, Zionist and non-Zionist – including myself – disagree with the present policy of the Israeli government.

It is evident that Livingstone is being attacked because he supports the Palestinians, and not because he is either offensive or anti-Semitic. He is not guilty of any conduct detrimental to the Labour Party. His suspension was unjustified. Any further disciplinary action would bring the party into disrepute.

[Livia]

Labour’s deputy leader, Tom Watson, has accused his party of failing the Jewish community and bringing “shame on us all”, after a disciplinary panel decided not to expel Ken Livingstone for suggesting Hitler supported Zionism.

Senior party figures, including shadow cabinet ministers, called for the decision to be reviewed after the disciplinary body ruled that Livingstone should be suspended for another year for bringing the party into disrepute.

The decision also caused senior Jewish politicians to question their future in the party, with Lord Levy, the chief fundraiser under Tony Blair, threatening to leave.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...eview-decision

[Livia]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

You have to stop being offended and trying to shut down discussions every time that discussion mentions Israel.

Criticizing Israel is not the same as anti-Semitism but we haven't even done that in this thread.

As for suggesting we are the same sort of people who say the Holocaust was made up, how dare you. My husband lost many ancestors in the Holocaust.

I'll tell you what's offensive, shall I? A perfect stranger like you telling me that I have to stop being offended.

And then you go on to be offended yourself.

[Tom4784]

It's a serious mistake to not get rid of him at this point. I think he's more of an idiot than an outright anti-semite but statements like those will hurt the party regardless.

[joeysteele]

I wish Livingstone was careful in what and how he says things.
He must be abundantly clear the media and those with an irrational hate of Labour are ready to pounce on anything like this.

Whether historically right or not,just in this day and age,stop talking about Hitler or anything Nazi related, that seems to be the only way to avoid getting both personally or Party into bother.
UKIP have the same problem with racism,the vast majority of UKIP are not likely racist at all, their haters will always try to tar the Party with the claim however.
As is being done here as to anti semitism with Labour.

The suspension changes nothing, this will be dragged on by those with vendettas against Livingstone and from those who hate Labour anyway.
Had he been expelled, the headlines would have been as bad,even when not true.
That Labour had to expel due to rife anti semitism in its Party.

Again we get to the Chief Rabbi sticking in his gripe again, if the religious leader of Catholics or the Archbishop of Canterbury make political statements,the cry from good numbers is,religious leaders should keep out of politics.
Yet the Chief Rabbi can paint Labour any way he wishes and get solid airtime for it too.

None of this helps,personally I wish Livingstone just gracefully retired.
However it is becoming more and more that even just stating a thought on this issue and other possible contentious issues,people now dare not even explore the topic publicly.

Ridiculous.
Anti semitism is wrong and should be seen as wholly abhorrent, genuine anti semitism that is and not just thoughts and discussion about it.

[the truth]

what exactly has he done wrong. I havent followed this from start to finish so pls excuse my lack of understanding here. Does this basically mean conversations about nazis and hitler are now outlawed? Or is it the context in which hes discussed them? Genuinely bewildered on this

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

what exactly has he done wrong. I havent followed this from start to finish so pls excuse my lack of understanding here. Does this basically mean conversations about nazis and hitler are now outlawed? Or is it the context in which hes discussed them? Genuinely bewildered on this

What Livingstone said wasn't anti-anything but because Labour have (unfairly and unnecessarily) been called anti-Semitic in recent years, the press, the Right and that includes Right of Labour quickly picked up on Livingstones use of words.

Zionism is a political ideology that continues to be contested within and beyond Jewish communities. As with any political ideology, it is entirely legitimate for non-Jews as well as Jews to express positive or negative opinions about it. Not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists are Jews. Many strident supporters of Zionism today in Britain and America are right wing Christian fundamentalists who include antiSemites.

Support for Zionism does not imply support for Jews, or for anti-racist attitudes. http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/ne...abarti-inquiry.

So beside what Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis and Tom Watson proclaim, "Zionism", whatever way we look at it, is not an integral part of Judaism. Many false, distorted charges of antiSemitism have been used as ammunition to damage the Labour Party, in particular, Corbyn, and also to undermine and gag free speech by Labour Party members on the Israel/Palestine conflict.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by joeysteele;9272956[B

]I wish Livingstone was careful in what and how he says things.[/B]
He must be abundantly clear the media and those with an irrational hate of Labour are ready to pounce on anything like this.

Whether historically right or not,just in this day and age,stop talking about Hitler or anything Nazi related, that seems to be the only way to avoid getting both personally or Party into bother.
UKIP have the same problem with racism,the vast majority of UKIP are not likely racist at all, their haters will always try to tar the Party with the claim however.
As is being done here as to anti semitism with Labour.

The suspension changes nothing, this will be dragged on by those with vendettas against Livingstone and from those who hate Labour anyway.
Had he been expelled, the headlines would have been as bad,even when not true.
That Labour had to expel due to rife anti semitism in its Party.

Again we get to the Chief Rabbi sticking in his gripe again, if the religious leader of Catholics or the Archbishop of Canterbury make political statements,the cry from good numbers is,religious leaders should keep out of politics.
Yet the Chief Rabbi can paint Labour any way he wishes and get solid airtime for it too.

None of this helps,personally I wish Livingstone just gracefully retired.
However it is becoming more and more that even just stating a thought on this issue and other possible contentious issues,people now dare not even explore the topic publicly.

Ridiculous.
Anti semitism is wrong and should be seen as wholly abhorrent, genuine anti semitism that is and not just thoughts and discussion about it.

The thing is, how can we be guarded about political correctness over something that is correct politically?
How much information should we teach our history students and should we teach them history that could offend them?

Even on here we have to tiptoe around our thoughts on Zionism just in case we get accused of being anti-Semitic. Like you, I thing anti-Semitism is abhorrent and unacceptable but then I think all racism is unacceptable. I should though, be able to freely state my feelings about Zionism without being demonized for it.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

The thing is, how can we be guarded about political correctness over something that is correct politically?
How much information should we teach our history students and should we teach them history that could offend them?

Even on here we have to tiptoe around our thoughts on Zionism just in case we get accused of being anti-Semitic. Like you, I thing anti-Semitism is abhorrent and unacceptable but then I think all racism is unacceptable. I should though, be able to freely state my feelings about Zionism without being demonized for it.

What you mean like people have to tip-toe around their thoughts on Islam for fear of being accused of being racists or bigots. Not nice is it.

Political correctness and those that practice it are the biggest zealots and bullies of all.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

What you mean like people have to tip-toe around their thoughts on Islam for fear of being accused of being racists or bigots. Not nice is it.

Political correctness and those that practice it are the biggest zealots and bullies of all.

Islam is a faith, Judaism is a faith... Zionism isn't.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Islam is a faith, Judaism is a faith... Zionism isn't.

So faith should not be criticised in your opinion. I feel quite the opposite as a lot of injustice, ignorance and terror is carried out in the name of religion - it should be questioned.

[Kizzy]

Why when tom watson and co are involved do I feel it's more the fact that livingstone is a corbyn supporter that they take greater offence to than his comments?....

What happened to freedom of speech?... I can't here the chimes of PC gone mad, quite the opposite in fact.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

So faith should not be criticised in your opinion. I feel quite the opposite as a lot of injustice, ignorance and terror is carried out in the name of religion - it should be questioned.

You can try and change this all you like but what you are attempting to do is take this away from topic. The reason for Livingstone suspension is because he spoke frankly about Zionism but people who don't like the man tried convincing us all that he was criticising the Jews.

If we want to talk about criticising religion, perhaps we need to start another thread that isn't about Livingstone.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

You can try and change this all you like but what you are attempting to do is take this away from topic. The reason for Livingstone suspension is because he spoke frankly about Zionism but people who don't like the man tried convincing us all that he was criticising the Jews.

If we want to talk about criticising religion, perhaps we need to start another thread that isn't about Livingstone.

You spoke of being able to speak of your thoughts freely, without having to tip-toe around the subject and without being demonised for doing so, which is what prompted my response. The subject under discussion is not really the issue. The same should apply for most subjects including religion was my point.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

So faith should not be criticised in your opinion. I feel quite the opposite as a lot of injustice, ignorance and terror is carried out in the name of religion - it should be questioned.

Nobody mention the (holy) war!!!

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You spoke of being able to speak of your thoughts freely, without having to tip-toe around the subject and without being demonised for doing so, which is what prompted my response. The subject under discussion is not really the issue. The same should apply for most subjects including religion was my point.

But I wasn't talking about religion, I was talking about historic fact. Why do you want to take it down the religious line when its not even relevant to this topic?

I know what you are trying to get at. Why do people have to step around Islam (and good god they don't!) on this site for fear of being called Islamophobe. Well its a complex subject that deserves its own thread so why don't you start one.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Nobody mention the (holy) war!!!

This is a little creepy. Tonight we downloaded that very episode

[the truth]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

What Livingstone said wasn't anti-anything but because Labour have (unfairly and unnecessarily) been called anti-Semitic in recent years, the press, the Right and that includes Right of Labour quickly picked up on Livingstones use of words.

Zionism is a political ideology that continues to be contested within and beyond Jewish communities. As with any political ideology, it is entirely legitimate for non-Jews as well as Jews to express positive or negative opinions about it. Not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists are Jews. Many strident supporters of Zionism today in Britain and America are right wing Christian fundamentalists who include antiSemites.

Support for Zionism does not imply support for Jews, or for anti-racist attitudes. http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/ne...abarti-inquiry.

So beside what Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis and Tom Watson proclaim, "Zionism", whatever way we look at it, is not an integral part of Judaism. Many false, distorted charges of antiSemitism have been used as ammunition to damage the Labour Party, in particular, Corbyn, and also to undermine and gag free speech by Labour Party members on the Israel/Palestine conflict.

It all seems to go back to political correctness destroying free speech...;abour abused it by calling anyone and everyone racist for discussing immigration or radical islamic terrorism and they also labelled everyone sexist if they didnt agree with everyone peddled by radical feminsits...now the tories are using political correctness to accuse labour of racism....both imo are using and abusing the evil that is political correctness in a totally underhand way to label and slander their opponents.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

It all seems to go back to political correctness destroying free speech...;abour abused it by calling anyone and everyone racist for discussing immigration or radical islamic terrorism and they also labelled everyone sexist if they didnt agree with everyone peddled by radical feminsits...now the tories are using political correctness to accuse labour of racism....both imo are using and abusing the evil that is political correctness in a totally underhand way to label and slander their opponents.

We all use the same yard stick but some of us will twist that stick until it no longer resembles a ruler.

Ken Livingstone shouldn't of opened his mouth and said anything about Zionism because he's fully aware of the consequences that have rained down on the Labour Government in recent months.

[Livia]

If it was just comments by Ken Livingstone, it wouldn't have been such a big deal. But when you couple it with other insults and comments to Jewish MPs and Labour supporters it is less acceptable. They are not intelligent enough to realise that Israeli and Jewish are two different things. Furthermore, if there's really no problem, why have all these people been suspended by the Labour party?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/labour-anti...-party-1558000

Anti-Semitism is not now, and has never been taken very seriously compared to other hate crimes. And if I feel insulted I get told on this forum that I should stop being so offended. Well, I am offended... and until Labour sorts itself out it's harming the whole of British politics because we do not have a solid opposition... and we need one.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

We all use the same yard stick but some of us will twist that stick until it no longer resembles a ruler.

Ken Livingstone shouldn't of opened his mouth and said anything about Zionism because he's fully aware of the consequences that have rained down on the Labour Government in recent months.

We don't have a Labour government.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

If it was just comments by Ken Livingstone, it wouldn't have been such a big deal. But when you couple it with other insults and comments to Jewish MPs and Labour supporters it is less acceptable. They are not intelligent enough to realise that Israeli and Jewish are two different things. Furthermore, if there's really no problem, why have all these people been suspended by the Labour party?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/labour-anti...-party-1558000

Anti-Semitism is not now, and has never been taken very seriously compared to other hate crimes. And if I feel insulted I get told on this forum that I should stop being so offended. Well, I am offended... and until Labour sorts itself out it's harming the whole of British politics because we do not have a solid opposition... and we need one.

And how do those comments differ from these?

'Other political parties have not been immune to accusations of antisemitism, albeit apparently with a smaller number of reported incidents, and with a lower profile. In April 2015, a Conservative candidate for Derby Council was expelled from her Party after she said she would never support “the Jew” Ed Miliband.181 In August 2014, the University College London (UCL) Union investigated the university’s Conservative Society after it was accused of creating a “toxic environment”, with one member reported to have said “Jews own everything, we all know it’s true. I wish I was Jewish, but my nose isn’t long enough”. Media reports suggest that the incident was never investigated by the Conservative Party,182 but it is unclear whether it was ever referred to the Party, and questions have subsequently been raised about the veracity of the complaint.

123.A former Conservative Councillor who defected to the Liberal Democrats after losing his seat, Matthew Gordon Banks, was suspended from his new Party in September after writing on Twitter that “[Tim] Farron’s leadership campaign was organised and funded by London Jews”, adding in a second tweet: “I tried to work with them. Very difficult.”183 The former Liberal Democrat MP David Ward has been accused of antisemitism on several occasions. He was suspended from his Party after accusing “the Jews” of committing atrocities in Palestine.'

Which is from the link on page 1, it's from information on the parliamentary website from last october, interestingly that page is no longer available to view.... Is it that the current govt would like to whitewash it's own indiscretions and simply push that it is only Labour members/ representatives that tweet/state offensive/damaging remarks?

What do you mean 'sorts itself out'? As Eric Pickles himself stated..


''the Conservative Party had had problems (with racism) in the late 1960s, but had learned lessons from this and recognised that it “must have a no tolerance policy with regard to any form of racism”.189 When challenged about the incident at UCL, of which he was unaware, he apologised and said that, on the face of it, the Party should have investigated it; although, as previously mentioned, there is some dispute over the veracity of the complaint itself. Sir Eric denied that he had intended to suggest in his evidence that the Conservative Party was alone in having no ongoing problems with antisemitism among its members, stating that antisemitism is “one of the oldest, most nasty, most evil of all the sins”; that it “comes back”; and that “to suggest for a millisecond that I believe that the Conservative party is free of antisemitism would be a complete bastardisation of what I have just said”

[Livia]

I worked for the Conservative party. Are there some anti-Semites in there? Yes. A similar amount as in Labour? God, no... Does producing a cut-and-paste job about the Tories make Labour's comments okay? No, of course not. It's unacceptable wherever it originates, but Labour, and Corbynites in particular, are making a hobby of it.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Livia

If it was just comments by Ken Livingstone, it wouldn't have been such a big deal. But when you couple it with other insults and comments to Jewish MPs and Labour supporters it is less acceptable. They are not intelligent enough to realise that Israeli and Jewish are two different things. Furthermore, if there's really no problem, why have all these people been suspended by the Labour party?.

I certainly don’t excuse any racism shown towards Jews but we can’t tar all comments with the same brush.

I think a lot of people have difficulty separating Judaism from Zionism Alex Chalmers is one of them and so are a few who were suspended. As for Naz Shah and Illyas Azis they deserved to be suspended. Azis was particularly ignorant and that ignorance got him in hot water. He certainly doesn’t deserve a voice in the Labour Party and neither does Kirby or Gurbuz who undoubtedly showed racial prejudice.

You can’t be part of a political party and get away with this sort of ridiculous nonsense on social media. On the other hand, we should be able to openly talk about Hamas, Israel and Zionism without insulting Judaism, just as we should be able to talk about ISIS without insulting Islam... Oh hang on though, we do talk about ISIS whilst insulting Islam.

Anti-Semitism is not now, and has never been taken very seriously compared to other hate crimes. And if I feel insulted I get told on this forum that I should stop being so offended. Well, I am offended... and until Labour sorts itself out it's harming the whole of British politics because we do not have a solid opposition... and we need one.

If we are going to come on a forum common for political debate, we must accept that some topics are going to trigger certain people (and I mean either way). If the goal is truth we shouldn’t try to stifle or silence anyone who contributes to that debate. On this board, just like any other board, we often reach a situation where anyone who claims offence is automatically the victim (I’m no innocent here) and the person who insulted us is the abuser (I’ve been accused of that too). That attitude shows a closed-mind to open discussion... I remind myself often! Whatever side of the discussion we are on, we have to accept that opinions will fly in all directions. We can’t discuss anything if we worry about the person who needs to be coddled on the topic.

What I won’t have is someone accusing me of anti-Semitism and suggesting I’m the type who denies the Holocaust. That’s not a stone you threw, it was an effing boulder and it was thrown to harm my opinion and make me look like a Jew hater.