[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I would agree with you Ammi if, like I said in my last post, we actually were allowed to have that discussion. As it stands, you're allowed to say "it's immigrants" (and anything you want to say about those immigrants) but the flipping you're talking about - mentioning intolerance, pointing out when someone is being intolerant, is expressly forbidden as "making comments about other members" and will get you banned.

So I can only go back to what I originally said. Either there has to be more acceptance for people calling out each other's opinions - which may include personal comments - or there needs to be SOME sort of limitation on the level of hate speech that is tolerated. I'm not saying ban anyone. I'm not saying disallow opinions that immigration is to blame. I'm saying that there are comments that go far beyond that and they are increasing in number, confidence, and severity and will continue to do so, because the people doing it are starting to feel untouchable. It's a problem that's only going to get worse.

..I'm not really sure what making comments about other people would achieve other than some personal gratification or satisfaction maybe.../maybe a relief of some frustration../who knows..?...only the person feeling the need I guess...but I reckon that the comments being objected to are being made with frustration as well so it really is all rather pointless, rather than taking the opportunity to actually try to understand where their views are coming from....(it seems to me to be a 'problem that's getting worse' )..because of the contribution of many in not being listened to....

[AnnieK]

I think all views are best aired to an extent obviously within legal reasoning. It's the only way to continue educating both ourselves and others. Shutting down people's views allows them to fester and grow....only by discussing and debating can fears and Descrimination be tackled head on.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I think all views are best aired to an extent obviously within legal reasoning. It's the only way to continue educating both ourselves and others. Shutting down people's views allows them to fester and grow....only by discussing and debating can fears and Descrimination be tackled head on.

Agree with this. I've seen a handful of racist posts but not many, really, and they've been - to my knowledge - dealt with.

The OP is presumably more frustrated with the buck-passing peddled by tabloids, which is understandable.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I think all views are best aired to an extent obviously within legal reasoning. It's the only way to continue educating both ourselves and others. Shutting down people's views allows them to fester and grow....only by discussing and debating can fears and Descrimination be tackled head on.

.....I recall reading many articles after the unthinkable happened of Donald Trump being elected..?...and the thing that came across more than anything else was how 'invisible' many had felt in their fears and concerns and in their problems and how in-listened to they felt they were...that I think is a very 'dangerous world' to live in ....just look where it's all leading atm for the whole human race, how much it's contributing....

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I think all views are best aired to an extent obviously within legal reasoning. It's the only way to continue educating both ourselves and others. Shutting down people's views allows them to fester and grow....only by discussing and debating can fears and Descrimination be tackled head on.

There have been comments on here that, if aired in public, could legitimately result in an arrest for hate speech and incitement to violence. But people will dismiss that as "PC Gone mad, stifling of free speech", so that's why I've tried to steer clear of the actual legality of things.

Again, there is no discussion. We're not allowed to tackle it. Telling someone that you believe their views to be horrendous and discriminatory is "passing personal comment" and therefore not allowed.

Ammi; I'm not sure where you've got the idea that be "personal comments" I mean throwing around Insults... All I mean is directly being able to address people's posts and share an opinion on that post, and an opinion on that person for making that post. That is discussion, that is part of these issues being addressed. It is specifically not allowed. Reiterating, again: people can say whatever they want "in general" without fear of anyone expressing a negative opinion of them, personally, for their abhorrent views. It doesn't work. It isn't working. There is abundant evidence of it not working. This forum is increasingly, by the day, full of smug entitled racism. That is MY opinion and I am as entitled to it as anyone else, though I'm sure I'll be accused of "thinking I'm always right" for...what? For not agreeing with THEM. If it wasn't such mind-blowingly frustrating hypocrisy it would actually be funny.

[thesheriff443]

Members have strong opinions on both sides.

Terrorist want people to hate each other.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...Lord, I don't even know how to start with that OP/post and I'm not used to posting/gathering my thoughts for posting atm..so I'll just say (as best as I can..)...the 'all I have to say' and leave it at that...

...there is a 'problem' for sure because there is a 'problem' in the world atm and the forum reflects that...but I personally don't see it as a problem that can be focused on any particular people with exclusion to others who are focusing on those...everyone and without exception are naturally concerned for their lives, for the lives of others etc...I think that's something we all are agreed on, we don't though all have the same thoughts and reasoning on what we feel is 'blame' and because of that we all have different opinions at what we feel it would take to try to move toward a safer world...no one is all right in their views, whatever their views are and no one is all wrong in them either..but no one seems to listen, I mean really listen to anyone says...they just label and accuse, they pigeon-hole, rather than question/rather than communicate and communication/listening/dissecting etc is THE ONLY way in any possibility of moving forward...

...should we just remove everyone from the forum whose opinions/whose values oppose our own, is that going to move anything forward from this negative world we're in atm...my personal opinion is, is that 'shouting down'/accusing because we may feel a person is intolerant is as bad as walking away from something which we should be trying to take opportunities to understand...understanding takes steps forward to being able to communicate and (possibly) have people listen to us as well..?...have we learned nothing from the presidency of Trump becoming real...?...the people who voted for him because 'he listened to them'...would it have happened, had people not felt they couldn't talk about their concerns and fears without judgement, when everyone is as fearful as each other../there is only differing views on 'cause/and effect', type thing...sorting through all of the ..oh, it's the immigrants/no it's not, it's intolerance is surely something that is necessary for our world and for any steps forward...?...and the same with Brexit, if some voted because of concerns on immigration..?...whether anyone agrees/disagrees or whatever...judging those people for their concerns, throwing up of hands in the air and the refusal to try to understand led to a pretty extreme vote from many...so do we not all bear a responsibility for that..?.../I personally think so...(my opinion of course..)..is that what all of our focus should be is to look at ourselves and our own contribution's to the world we live in and stop judging others and to start listening and really trying communication over judgement...because there really doesn't seem to be a 'side' atm that is 'in the right'....

This is the post of this thread. I can only urge the OP to really read it, and others here too. That was so very well put, much admiration for you Ammi, and welcome back.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Members have strong opinions on both sides.

Terrorist want people to hate each other.

Terrorists want people to hate and fear Muslims because a Muslim who is hated and feared is easier to recruit. They don't care what anyone else thinks of each other.

They are winning.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by jaxie

This is the post of this thread. I can only urge the OP to really read it, and others here too.

I have read it and I agree with plenty of it, I've stated in countless threads that I fully believe in freedom of speech, but as much as I adore Ammi and her posts, she is overlooking my point exactly as you are.

That point being that there is a line. There needs to be a line, somewhere, between free speech and hate speech and that line is being crossed. Not often, not in every thread, not even every day maybe, but it is an increasing trend that needs to be addressed before it gets totally out of hand. That is what my OP says. Draw that line BEFORE this gets way out of hand. The line is unclear and there is a huge problem looming, plenty of people can see it.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I have read it and I agree with plenty of it, I've stated in countless threads that I fully believe in freedom of speech, but as much as I adore Ammi and her posts, she is overlooking my point exactly as you are.

That point being that there is a line. There needs to be a line, somewhere, between free speech and hate speech and that line is being crossed. Not often, not in every thread, not even every day maybe, but it is an increasing trend that needs to be addressed before it gets totally out of hand. That is what my OP says. Draw that line BEFORE this gets way out of hand. The line is unclear and there is a huge problem looming, plenty of people can see it.

The problem with that TS if I can be blunt is that I think you're finger pointing and that is also not nice. Shutting down dialogue isn't the way. I used to agree with a lot of your posts until you began throwing round veiled accusations at people. I will agree with you that there are some posts that are inappropriate but so is all the finger pointing and it isn't always in the right place.

There are wise words in the post below also.

[thesheriff443]

If you see a post and think its racist report it!
Mods do a great job.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

If you see a post and think its racist report it!
Mods do a great job.

Or if you see sarcasm, report that too, they also do a job on that.

This sarcastic post will bring me another infraction.

[Scarlett.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Do you know what my hard core righty friend said to me last night? "We should just round up all of the brown people and set them on fire".

Typical violent racist right wing attitude.


Hey look we didn't mention any forum members and therefore these posts are fine! Hooraaaay.

I've seen a lot of people saying **** like that, and I just don't get it, don't people remember the events of WWII? It was less than 100 ****ing years ago, yet everyone seems ready to repeat history.

[Kazanne]

I've seen no hate speech on here,just people with very different opinions

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by jaxie

The problem with that TS if I can be blunt is that I think you're finger pointing and that is also not nice. Shutting down dialogue isn't the way. I used to agree with a lot of your posts until you began throwing round veiled accusations at people. I will agree with you that there are some posts that are inappropriate but so is all the finger pointing and it isn't always in the right place.

There are wise words in the post below also.

Frankly jaxie, they're only "veiled" because naming names isn't allowed. There are people who deserve to have a finger pointed at them because the things they are saying, cross a line. I feel like I'm not doing anything but repeating the same things now, though... there are people who can see what I'm seeing and that at least is some comfort. If I was making these posts expecting everyone to know what I'm talking about, then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I've seen no hate speech on here,just people with very different opinions

As someone who is constantly telling me that I'm wrong to "always believe that I'm right" - I'm confused as to why you would think that the fact that "you don't see it" means it definitely isn't there. Do you accept that it might be there and you simply aren't aware of it, or are overlooking it?

[Maru]

I 100% agree with Ammi (particularly the first post). Welcome to 2017.

Our institutions are being stretched to their limits as far as freedom of speech and democracy is concerned and more and more pressure are being put on them to do more than they are able. The same thing happening to our institutions is what has happened to TiBB.

Democracy itself in particular is being tested by the introduction of the internet. It used to take months if not years to create movements. Now they are created in minutes. Fires can be created through social media and sites like these just as fast as they are being snuffed out. No question, our very definition of culture and what we call "society" is being tested.

There's not much the mods can to "regulate" this... especially if our own governments can't even control the spread. Media outlets (left or right) try to "suppress" these ideas or movements they see as a threat to their perceived vision of our culture and all it does is create more fires to be put out.

Simply put, if the mods increase moderation, it will only create more fires that can be fanned. The definition of hate speech is still considered blurred in our society, partly due to varying sensitivity levels, partly ignorance. Either way until there's a stricter consensus (personally I think we're seeing a cultural death), then the mods will find that half the community disagrees with almost all their decisions on these case(s).

Your solution is either ignore their acct/comments or to let them live with their reality. The fact that people will sit there though for hours and hours and argue with them their way of things is what fuels their resolve. Maybe go on a politics diet (lol) and give yourself maybe one of those really toxic excursions into a dark thread once a week or something if you're really just craving the intellectual stimulation... (I tried that though, but just quit entirely )

For me, the point of posting lost it's decomping purpose after our election(s). It's bad enough we have to endure this presidency at home, that I have to read it on TiBB and everywhere else. Everything in the US right now is "Trump intolerance Trump hate Trump liars Trump fake news Trump Trump Trump". I read and listen (dropped cable TV) the news everyday and I've been having smaller epiphanies here and there about what some of this means not only for our local community but for the country/world. I would have not gained those new understandings, nor spent by my time well, by sitting behind a computer screen arguing with someone I don't even know enough about to judge entirely objectively.

Anyway I used to post at TiBB to decomp, share some posts, make fun of housemates, talk about the mundane... but off-season, it's mainly SD traffic and that tension did start to trickle to other boards. There's few places online now I can genuinely say are not suffering from the same exact problems though political discussion seems to have spilled into every facet of life.

For now, internet trolls from all corners (including our "President") have hijacked our culture and we won't be able to take back control until we ourselves change and understand how we collectively and individually are fanning the flames. (Hint: Less gaslighting)

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Frankly jaxie, they're only "veiled" because naming names isn't allowed. There are people who deserve to have a finger pointed at them because the things they are saying, cross a line. I feel like I'm not doing anything but repeating the same things now, though... there are people who can see what I'm seeing and that at least is some comfort. If I was making these posts expecting everyone to know what I'm talking about, then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

You are right in what you're saying, and Sheriffs suggestion does seem pretty rational
my fear though is that because of the year weve had - theres quite an obvious 'left'/'right' divide on the forum, and will people report those that they basically consider to be part of their group? or turn a blind eye to it?
The divide is obvious even on this thread, with the 'left' applauding your words, and the 'right' suggesting that theyre confused and not seen what youve speak of.
In all honesty, (and this wont go down well) the only solution I see is more points per infraction.
But maybe the switchup of teams when people devote their life to BB will naturally give people a better perspective of where the line should be. The year-long political mess that the country has seen is finally coming to an end.. and people wont be divided into 'this group' or 'that group' anymore, they'd be divided into like 18 different groups of stanners.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Maru

I 100% agree with Ammi (particularly the first post). Welcome to 2017.

Our institutions are being stretched to their limits as far as freedom of speech and democracy is concerned and more and more pressure are being put on them to do more than they are able. The same thing happening to our institutions is what has happened to TiBB.

Democracy itself in particular is being tested by the introduction of the internet. It used to take months if not years to create movements. Now they are created in minutes. Fires can be created through social media and sites like these just as fast as they are being snuffed out. No question, our very definition of culture and what we call "society" is being tested.

There's not much the mods can to "regulate" this... especially if our own governments can't even control the spread. Media outlets (left or right) try to "suppress" these ideas or movements they see as a threat to their perceived vision of our culture and all it does is create more fires to be put out.

Simply put, if the mods increase moderation, it will only create more fires that can be fanned. The definition of hate speech is still considered blurred in our society, partly due to varying sensitivity levels, partly ignorance. Either way until there's a stricter consensus (personally I think we're seeing a cultural death), then the mods will find that half the community disagrees with almost all their decisions on these case(s).

Your solution is either ignore their acct/comments or to let them live with their reality. The fact that people will sit there though for hours and hours and argue with them their way of things is what fuels their resolve. Maybe go on a politics diet (lol) and give yourself maybe one of those really toxic excursions into a dark thread once a week or something if you're really just craving the intellectual stimulation... (I tried that though, but just quit entirely )

For me, the point of posting lost it's decomping purpose after our election(s). It's bad enough we have to endure this presidency at home, that I have to read it on TiBB and everywhere else. Everything in the US right now is "Trump intolerance Trump hate Trump liars Trump fake news Trump Trump Trump". I read and listen (dropped cable TV) the news everyday and I've been having smaller epiphanies here and there about what some of this means not only for our local community but for the country/world. I would have not gained those new understandings, nor spent by my time well, by sitting behind a computer screen arguing with someone I don't even know enough about to judge entirely objectively.

Anyway I used to post at TiBB to decomp, share some posts, make fun of housemates, talk about the mundane... but off-season, it's mainly SD traffic and that tension did start to trickle to other boards. There's few places online now I can genuinely say are not suffering from the same exact problems though political discussion seems to have spilled into every facet of life.

For now, internet trolls from all corners (including our "President") have hijacked our culture and we won't be able to take back control until we ourselves change and understand how we collectively and individually are fanning the flames. (Hint: Less gaslighting)

I agree with all of that tbh, I'm just pretty frustrated that a forum that used to be genuinely enjoyable has been caught up in that wave and wrecked to the point of being almost unusable. I'm not ignorant to my own role either. Though, like you say, it's everywhere anyway and somewhat inevitable... and the correct response is probably to just let it go.

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Maru

I 100% agree with Ammi (particularly the first post). Welcome to 2017.

Our institutions are being stretched to their limits as far as freedom of speech and democracy is concerned and more and more pressure are being put on them to do more than they are able. The same thing happening to our institutions is what has happened to TiBB.

Democracy itself in particular is being tested by the introduction of the internet. It used to take months if not years to create movements. Now they are created in minutes. Fires can be created through social media and sites like these just as fast as they are being snuffed out. No question, our very definition of culture and what we call "society" is being tested.

There's not much the mods can to "regulate" this... especially if our own governments can't even control the spread. Media outlets (left or right) try to "suppress" these ideas or movements they see as a threat to their perceived vision of our culture and all it does is create more fires to be put out.

Simply put, if the mods increase moderation, it will only create more fires that can be fanned. The definition of hate speech is still considered blurred in our society, partly due to varying sensitivity levels, partly ignorance. Either way until there's a stricter consensus (personally I think we're seeing a cultural death), then the mods will find that half the community disagrees with almost all their decisions on these case(s).

Your solution is either ignore their acct/comments or to let them live with their reality. The fact that people will sit there though for hours and hours and argue with them their way of things is what fuels their resolve. Maybe go on a politics diet (lol) and give yourself maybe one of those really toxic excursions into a dark thread once a week or something if you're really just craving the intellectual stimulation... (I tried that though, but just quit entirely )

For me, the point of posting lost it's decomping purpose after our election(s). It's bad enough we have to endure this presidency at home, that I have to read it on TiBB and everywhere else. Everything in the US right now is "Trump intolerance Trump hate Trump liars Trump fake news Trump Trump Trump". I read and listen (dropped cable TV) the news everyday and I've been having smaller epiphanies here and there about what some of this means not only for our local community but for the country/world. I would have not gained those new understandings, nor spent by my time well, by sitting behind a computer screen arguing with someone I don't even know enough about to judge entirely objectively.

Anyway I used to post at TiBB to decomp, share some posts, make fun of housemates, talk about the mundane... but off-season, it's mainly SD traffic and that tension did start to trickle to other boards. There's few places online now I can genuinely say are not suffering from the same exact problems though political discussion seems to have spilled into every facet of life.

For now, internet trolls from all corners (including our "President") have hijacked our culture and we won't be able to take back control until we ourselves change and understand how we collectively and individually are fanning the flames. (Hint: Less gaslighting)

Annie and Maru forever being the voices of reason

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Withano

You are right in what you're saying, and Sheriffs suggestion does seem pretty rational
my fear though is that because of the year weve had - theres quite an obvious 'left'/'right' divide on the forum, and will people report those that they basically consider to be part of their group? or turn a blind eye to it?
The divide is obvious even on this thread, with the 'left' applauding your words, and the 'right' suggesting that theyre confused and not seen what youve speak of.
In all honesty, (and this wont go down well) the only solution I see is more points per infraction.
But maybe the switchup of teams when people devote their life to BB will naturally give people a better perspective of where the line should be. The year-long political mess that the country has seen is finally coming to an end.. and people wont be divided into 'this group' or 'that group' anymore, they'd be divided into like 18 different groups of stanners.

I dunno, the last few seasons I've noticed that the fan groups are almost totally identical to the SD teams . We're doomed.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I dunno, the last few seasons I've noticed that the fan groups are almost totally identical to the SD teams . We're doomed.

Hah really. I never cottoned on to that, but I suppose there might be a subconscious appeal to those you relate to most, so that makes sense.

Then again, TS... Stephen Bear, and Charlotte Crosby? One of us isn't a real leftie.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Withano

You are right in what you're saying, and Sheriffs suggestion does seem pretty rational
my fear though is that because of the year weve had - theres quite an obvious 'left'/'right' divide on the forum, and will people report those that they basically consider to be part of their group? or turn a blind eye to it?
The divide is obvious even on this thread, with the 'left' applauding your words, and the 'right' suggesting that theyre confused and not seen what youve speak of.
In all honesty, (and this wont go down well) the only solution I see is more points per infraction.
But maybe the switchup of teams when people devote their life to BB will naturally give people a better perspective of where the line should be. The year-long political mess that the country has seen is finally coming to an end.. and people wont be divided into 'this group' or 'that group' anymore, they'd be divided into like 18 different groups of stanners.

....Maru.... your posts always have so much thought in seeing so much from different perspectives....



...I do sometimes wonder Withano, do people/posters even see each other anymore because what has stood out in the threads I have read is that people are just 'put into boxes' based on their politics...we are all living in a world of fear and totally united in that/as one with that...but we have different thoughts of what we think will bring the changes needed...pointing fingers at each other just makes for circles of pointless discussions/..(I know you've taught so it's like those awful situations when you can get into real negative times with a child and then neither of you are really listening to each other anymore because you need to find a point you can both begin on to achieve something positive..?..)...(probably an awful analogy but oh well..)...

..anyways I fairly much agree with Sheriff..if any specific single posts are thought to 'cross the line' and are found to be disturbing in some way then report them, there is no need to point fingers...it's just a pointless thing to do and just contributes equally as negatively to the whole thing...and of course, it's exactly what terrorism strives for/to divide us and try to envelope us in the 'hate' thrive on....

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I do sometimes wonder Withano, do people/posters even see each other anymore because what has stood out in the threads I have read is that people are just 'put into boxes' based on their politics...

I have to admit that I'm guilty of assuming what the content of a post will be from the username. But is it not true that it's very surprising when that assumption is wrong? Not that I'm claiming to be unpredictable either. I guess the problem on a small forum is that we're all so entrenched that we genuinely DO know everyone's responses to everything, because we've already discussed everything to absolute death, or at least, we've already discussed to death the 4 or 5 topics that make up 99% of threads. Occasionally something different and interesting turns up. Maybe we need a new subforum; "Serious debates minus domestic politics, immigration and terrorism".

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

....Maru.... your posts always have so much thought in seeing so much from different perspectives....



...I do sometimes wonder Withano, do people/posters even see each other anymore because what has stood out in the threads I have read is that people are just 'put into boxes' based on their politics...we are all living in a world of fear and totally united in that/as one with that...but we have different thoughts of what we think will bring the changes needed...pointing fingers at each other just makes for circles of pointless discussions/..(I know you've taught so it's like those awful situations when you can get into real negative times with a child and then neither of you are really listening to each other anymore because you need to find a point you can both begin on to achieve something positive..?..)...(probably an awful analogy but oh well..)...

..anyways I fairly much agree with Sheriff..if any specific single posts are thought to 'cross the line' and are found to be disturbing in some way then report them, there is no need to point fingers...it's just a pointless thing to do and just contributes equally as negatively to the whole thing...and of course, it's exactly what terrorism strives for/to divide us and try to envelope us in the 'hate' thrive on....

I'm feeling this a lot lately with my own posts. Had several pages of a thread the other day where people were assuming I'd said all kinds of unrelated things apart from what I actually said. And you think to yourself are people actually reading the words or is there some sort of weird forum translator I'm not party to that changes the words you typed but don't show you the changes.

I also find people will lump you in with the politics they think you share. Personally I have equal disillusion with both sides of the main parties and various of the other small groups but because I will speak up when things seem unjustified or unbalanced to me, and I'm pro Brexit, people think I'm on the right, although I could argue that a true socialist should be Brexit all the way. It seems to me that most people in politics are an insincere bunch of crooks. It's funny though if I say something nice or fair about May or the government I'm considered a raging Tory yet everyone totally missed my saying Corbyn came over well on the One Show the other day. The forum gets more and more like the twilight zone every time I look in.