[Redway]

Originally Posted by the truth

nope he generalized about all my views on women

Coming from the guy who said Question Time's sexist against men because the women weren't banned from asking questions. Anything favourable you've got to say about women is obviously always gonna be taken with a pinch of salt.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Redway

Coming from the guy who said Question Time's sexist against men because the women weren't banned from asking questions. Anything favourable you've got to say about women is obviously always gonna be taken with a pinch of salt.

Thats a misquote...all men were banned from asking any of the main questions because they were men and because there were 4 men on the panel and only 1 woman, total waste of my time and every other man who spent all week sending in questions, speaking to the producer and turning up, they didnt tell us till 2 minutes before going live thats just a fact....2 months later they had 4 female guests and 1 man and they still took questions from women

this is the episode with the 4 women on the panel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWRlLDi4eqA

this is the episode where all men were banned from aksing any of the main questions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ewSpXOdB8w

100% total double standards on the so called impartial bbc
i emailed the producer about it, she ignored my email and never replied

[Tom4784]

Pro Choice, I often find that Pro Life is often a misnomer. A lot of hardcore pro lifers do not care about the life of children, they only care about foetuses which is why they seek to pass laws like this one, which has just recently been passed in Arkansas.

A new law passed in Arkansas means women must obtain permission from the man who impregnated them before they can have an abortion.

Even in the case of rape, women wishing to terminate a pregnancy would have to seek the opinion of their attacker or abusive partner – who would be able to refuse and potentially block the procedure.

The bill, which was signed into law in March and is set to come into force at the end of July, includes aborted foetuses in a rule stating family members must agree on what to do with the remains of their dead relatives.

Parents of girls under 18 will also be able to decide whether their daughter can have an abortion.

Pro-choice campaigners are fighting the law, which they say is designed to make it more difficult for women to access abortion, under the guise of legal requirements regarding the disposal of embryonic tissue.

A spokesperson for the NARAL advocacy group told the Huffington Post the "plain intention and unavoidable outcome" of the new law is "to make it harder for a woman to access basic health care by placing more barriers between a woman and her doctor”.


A legal challenge against the bill launched by civil and reproductive rights organisations will be heard on Thursday.

"Every day, women in Arkansas and across the United States struggle to get the care they need as lawmakers impose new ways to shut down clinics and make abortion unavailable," said the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) in a blog post announcing its legal challenge.

"Arkansas women cannot afford to lose further access. They cannot afford to travel hundreds of miles to get to the nearest clinic. And they should not have to endure invasions of privacy and violations of their autonomy."


ACLU is among the groups aiming to freeze this bill and a number of other new abortion laws until a decision is made on their lawsuit.

This includes one signed by governor Asa Hutchinson in January prohibiting the most common abortion procedure used in the second trimester of a pregnancy.

The method known as dilation and evacuation is the safest method of ending a pregnancy, say pro-choice campaigners, but has been called “barbaric” by those who support the law.

Arkansas, a state in the southeastern region of the US with a population of nearly three million, has only four facilities that provide abortion.

Before having an abortion, women in Arkansas must have state-directed counselling and then wait 48 hours before the procedure is provided.

This counselling often includes information designed to discourage her from terminating the pregnancy, according to reproductive rights think tank the Guttmacher Institute.

Public funding is only available for abortion if the mother’s life is endangered, or in the case of rape or incest, and health plans offered for under the most basic Affordable Care Act only cover abortion in the same cases.

Donald Trump has stopped US funding for international organisations who provide abortions or even give advice about ending a pregnancy.

It's a barbaric law and one that solidifies my earlier point as Arksansas has over 20,000 homeless children, where are the pro lifers that pushed through this bill when it comes to the huge amounts of homeless children already on Arkansas' streets? Oh right, they're children not foetuses so these people don't give a ****.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Pro Choice, I often find that Pro Life is often a misnomer. A lot of hardcore pro lifers do not care about the life of children, they only care about foetuses which is why they seek to pass laws like this one, which has just recently been passed in Arkansas.



It's a barbaric law and one that solidifies my earlier point as Arksansas has over 20,000 homeless children, where are the pro lifers that pushed through this bill when it comes to the huge amounts of homeless children already on Arkansas' streets? Oh right, they're children not foetuses so these people don't give a ****.

That makes absolutely horrific reading.. parents being able to force under 18s to go through with pregnancies too..just awful.

I am prochoice. I would say that the limit should be lowered possibly, but I wouldn't really label myself as 'mixed' because of that tbh.

I do not understand how on earth we could police the 'someone I know had 5 abortions last year' stories either as forcing women to go through with pregnancies doesn't sit right with me, nor does forced sterilization. But using abortion as a contraceptive...whilst vanishingly rare, does exist as yes unfortunately, a few sick people are like that...is also really wrong.

As mentioned by others in the thread, I also find it rather weird that the most pro-life of people also tend to be vehemently against said children once born being supported. Its all well and good saying abortion should not be allowed except in cases of rape..its not a view I agree with but its a view I cqan understand, but I find it a little contradictory to then go on to accuse (for example) young mothers of 'breeding for benefits' and such. Unless the ultimate message is...females just should not have sex period unless purposely trying for a child? Which is a little bit of an old fashioned view but its the only thing that can make any sense whilst holding both positions simultaneously.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

That makes absolutely horrific reading.. parents being able to force under 18s to go through with pregnancies too..just awful.

I am prochoice. I would say that the limit should be lowered possibly, but I wouldn't really label myself as 'mixed' because of that tbh.

I do not understand how on earth we could police the 'someone I know had 5 abortions last year' stories either as forcing women to go through with pregnancies doesn't sit right with me, nor does forced sterilization. But using abortion as a contraceptive, whilst vanishingly rare, does exist as yes unfortunately , a few sick people are like that.

As mentioned by others in the thread, I also find it rather weird that the most pro-life of people also tend to be vehemently against said children once born being supported. Its all well and good saying abortion should not be allowed except in cases of rape..its not a view I agree with but its a view I cqan understand, but I find it a little contradictory to then go on to accuse (for example) young mothers of 'breeding for benefits' and such. Unless the ultimate message is...females just should not have sex period unless purposely trying for a child? Which is a little bit of an old fashioned view but its the only thing that can make any sense whilst holding both positions simultaneously.

great post Vicky. regarding the BIB, it's actually a view I find a bit odd tbh, I mean if you're against abortion because you genuinely think abortion is murder then why would it be ok to murder an innocent child if the mother was raped? The answer is you can't possibly believe it is murder if you think it's ok to do it in certain circumstances. Like for example, a mother gives birth to a child who was the product of rape, would it be ok to stab that baby through the heart? No of course not, I bet you won't find a single person who says it is so clearly even the anti abortion people who think it's ok to have an abortion if the victim is raped don't feel that these foetus' are the same as babies who have been born. So I have to wonder what does motivate those people to be so against abortion. Also, i do find it odd that it's mainly men who are the strongest apposers of abortion as well

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

great post Vicky. regarding the BIB, it's actually a view I find a bit odd tbh, I mean if you're against abortion because you genuinely think abortion is murder then why would it be ok to murder an innocent child if the mother was raped? The answer is you can't possibly believe it is murder if you think it's ok to do it in certain circumstances. Like for example, a mother gives birth to a child who was the product of rape, would it be ok to stab that baby through the heart? No of course not, I bet you won't find a single person who says it is so clearly even the anti abortion people who think it's ok to have an abortion if the victim is raped don't feel that these foetus' are the same as babies who have been born. So I have to wonder what does motivate those people to be so against abortion. Also, i do find it odd that it's mainly men who are the strongest apposers of abortion as well

Mmm yeah thats a good point.

I think a lot of people who say this only say it as they feel it will gain their POV a bit more support. As afterall...if they said that women who had been raped should be forced to go through with unwanted pregnancies then that does sound particularly disgusting. It isn't something I have ever thought that much about tbh but yes, it is a bit of a peculiar view to hold actually...

Something I have always wondered about those who believe 'life begins at fertilization' is...are they also really against the morning after pill? As that works by halting a pregnancy AFTER conception in many cases

It does seem like those with the strongest views on the rights of the fetus over the female are males. I am sure females with such strong views exist but they seem to be vastly outnumbered by males. Unless the men are just more vocal about it I guess...where women silently support it :S If biology was flipped, I wonder if these same males would support forcing other males to go through with pregnancies against their will. Or if its just because it will never happen to them...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Mmm yeah thats a good point.

I think a lot of people who say this only say it as they feel it will gain their POV a bit more support. As afterall...if they said that women who had been raped should be forced to go through with unwanted pregnancies then that does sound particularly disgusting. It isn't something I have ever thought that much about tbh but yes, it is a bit of a peculiar view to hold actually...

Something I have always wondered about those who believe 'life begins at fertilization' is...are they also really against the morning after pill? As that works by halting a pregnancy AFTER conception in many cases

It does seem like those with the strongest views on the rights of the fetus over the female are males. I am sure females with such strong views exist but they seem to be vastly outnumbered by males. Unless the men are just more vocal about it I guess...where women silently support it :S If biology was flipped, I wonder if these same males would support forcing other males to go through with pregnancies against their will. Or if its just because it will never happen to them...

I'm guessing it would be a no.........

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I'm guessing it would be a no.........

Well I think that too. But obviously the argument would be that yes, it doesn't matter that their views will only affect females, it would be the same if males could give birth and so on. As its all about the fetus, nothing to do with control of womens bodies

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well I think that too. But obviously the argument would be that yes, it doesn't matter that their views will only affect females, it would be the same if males could give birth and so on. As its all about the fetus, nothing to do with control of womens bodies

Obviously there's no way of proving that but no one seems to give a s**t about what happens to these babies after they're born, just making sure that they are born in the first place so this is why i feel like it's not because they care so much about the "babies" rights

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Pro Choice, I often find that Pro Life is often a misnomer. A lot of hardcore pro lifers do not care about the life of children, they only care about foetuses which is why they seek to pass laws like this one, which has just recently been passed in Arkansas.



It's a barbaric law and one that solidifies my earlier point as Arksansas has over 20,000 homeless children, where are the pro lifers that pushed through this bill when it comes to the huge amounts of homeless children already on Arkansas' streets? Oh right, they're children not foetuses so these people don't give a ****.

better that that 1 million terminated babies every 6 years..at least they get a chance to live.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Obviously there's no way of proving that but no one seems to give a s**t about what happens to these babies after they're born, just making sure that they are born in the first place so this is why i feel like it's not because they care so much about the "babies" rights

exaggerated generalized nonsense. talk about baiting. as if NO ONE cares about children? what the heck does that even mean?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well I think that too. But obviously the argument would be that yes, it doesn't matter that their views will only affect females, it would be the same if males could give birth and so on. As its all about the fetus, nothing to do with control of womens bodies

exactly, besides 51% of the babies killed are female

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by the truth

better that that 1 million terminated babies every 6 years..at least they get a chance to live.

Bundles of cells that cannot sustain life are aborted, not babies. The whole 'life begins at conception' is so problematic and ignorant. Life begins when a child isn't reliant on a biological parasitic bond with their mother to survive. Life begins at birth.

Pro Lifers just want to control what women do with their own bodies, it's not about the babies because Lifers don't care once they've been born.

Control vs Freedom of choice, that is essentially what Pro Life vs Pro Choice comes down to.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by the truth

exaggerated generalized nonsense. talk about baiting. as if NO ONE cares about children? what the heck does that even mean?

You said in another thread that people breed for benefits so villifying people for having kids on the onehand and villifying them for not having them on the other

[jet]

I'm anti - abortion in some ways, pro - abortion in others, like in cases of the mothers life being endangered, or they are in an extremely fragile emotional state, rape, or young teens who haven't matured enough to understand the risks.
Apart from that, no. In this day and age, with contraception freely available anyone who takes the risk should be responsible for their actions. To deny an unborn baby the chance of a life because of irresponsibility makes me so angry.
The excuses of 'I couldn't afford it, or 'I don't want to be a single mother' or 'It would disrupt my career' etc are self serving.

It is obviously heart rending and hard, but the inevitable emotional and physical pain of going through with having the baby should be borne, and that of giving the child up for adoption to those who long for a child and can't have one.
I firmly believe in life from conception, once life had begun there is no going back no matter how tiny and hard to imagine that life is. It is like saying a 1 year old's life is not as important as a 7 year old's in my opinion.

[jennyjuniper]

I'm pro life. This is only MY choice. Many years ago I had an abortion. I have regretted that choice many times. I often think about that boy or girl and wonder what they would have become.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by jet

I'm anti - abortion in some ways, pro - abortion in others, like in cases of the mothers life being endangered, or they are in an extremely fragile emotional state, rape, or young teens who haven't matured enough to understand the risks.
Apart from that, no. In this day and age, with contraception freely available anyone who takes the risk should be responsible for their actions. To deny an unborn baby the chance of a life because of irresponsibility makes me so angry.
The excuses of 'I couldn't afford it, or 'I don't want to be a single mother' or 'It would disrupt my career' etc are self serving.

It is obviously heart rending and hard, but the inevitable emotional and physical pain of going through with having the baby should be borne, and that of giving the child up for adoption to those who long for a child and can't have one.
I firmly believe in life from conception, once life had begun there is no going back no matter how tiny and hard to imagine that life is. It is like saying a 1 year old's life is not as important as a 7 year old's in my opinion.

Once upon a time I had a fairly similar opinion but it's changed dramatically over the years. The first thing that prompted it really is my second daughter's extra needs. She is wonderful and she is thriving but to do so, she needs a huge amount of our resources, both emotional and financial. Having a third child "unplanned" would have been an absolute disaster for our lives, for her, and for her older sister. Totally devastating. I've had the snip now and we never had to go through the trauma of an abortion but for over a year if she was ever even slightly "late" it was panic-stations, and we had essentially pre-decided that if it ever did happen, we would have to get an abortion. The "in this day and age with contraception" argument doesn't hold up that well either as we have had pregnancies on three different types or contraception - pill, coil implant, and condoms. My eldest was conceived while my wife was on the pill, and we have been through two miscarriages.

The second thing that changed my opinion on "life starting at conception", is those two miscarriages. The first was upsetting, the second was a bit of a non-event to be honest, but the important part, is that it's clearly nothing like comparing a one year old to a seven year old. I don't feel like a "father of four" who has had two "children" die. And to be totally frank, I sort of think comparing an early-stage miscarriage to the death of a child or even a stillbirth is grossly offensive to anyone who has actually lost a child. Would you genuinely go up to someone who has had a child die in an accident or of illness and say "Hey man, I totally know what you're going through, we had a miscarriage at 8 weeks".

It's just not the same, or anything even resembling the same.

Also, here's a (for some reason) little known fact: something like 30% of conceptions fail to implant and miscarry within the first two weeks (before the first missed period), without the woman having any idea that she was ever pregnant. Many couples trying to conceive will have multiple of these and never even know. That sounds like an awful lot of child death until you realise that it just... Isn't.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by jet

I'm anti - abortion in some ways, pro - abortion in others, like in cases of the mothers life being endangered, or they are in an extremely fragile emotional state, rape, or young teens who haven't matured enough to understand the risks.
Apart from that, no. In this day and age, with contraception freely available anyone who takes the risk should be responsible for their actions. To deny an unborn baby the chance of a life because of irresponsibility makes me so angry.
The excuses of 'I couldn't afford it, or 'I don't want to be a single mother' or 'It would disrupt my career' etc are self serving.

It is obviously heart rending and hard, but the inevitable emotional and physical pain of going through with having the baby should be borne, and that of giving the child up for adoption to those who long for a child and can't have one.
I firmly believe in life from conception, once life had begun there is no going back no matter how tiny and hard to imagine that life is. It is like saying a 1 year old's life is not as important as a 7 year old's in my opinion.

What do you make of those who use contraception but it fails?

This is a matter so close to me right now as I have 2 kids right and really do not want another, and I have the implant in and since getting it in a few months after having my son, I have not had any periods at all...seem to have been one of the lucky ones as doctor said you can either bleed constantly or not at all, or stay as normal. So...no period for like 18 months. In the past 3 months I have randomly started bleeding again, which says to me that the implant is no longer effective. As the doctor told me that the way it works, it alters your hormones or something so thats why it can stop periods. But...to me if it stopped me for 18 months then mine start again, its clearly not altering my hormones in the same way so its no longer working. The doctors though, refuse to remove it and replace it. They insist that its effective until next year. They refuse to let me have any other contraception as apparently its dangerous to take 2 at once. So condoms it is, but even those can fail so tbh I have been pretty celibate for 2 months now as I am **** scared of getting pregnant as even double contraception fails are not that rare. So me and my husband are having some issues as he doesn't understand really..

So we are really back to...females should be totally celibate if they do not want a child

Ugh. Such a tough topic as I know there are actually people who just don't bother with contraception and then act all shocked when they get pregnant. But I see it from the other side as I am so careful but I know there is still a chance I could have another, that I have neither the time nor the space for. And definitely can't afford another. Ontop of that my last pregnancy absolutely broke me. I have a long term disability now..that seems to have been brought on by giving birth and has not yet gone away...

So yeah. Bit of an essay but I can't go for the 'use contraception and you won't have an unwanted pregnancy' thing really. I personally know 2 people who were using 2 forms of contraception and still ended up pregnant so maybe that makes me a bit more paranoid about it...

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Once upon a time I had a fairly similar opinion but it's changed dramatically over the years. The first thing that prompted it really is my second daughter's extra needs. She is wonderful and she is thriving but to do so, she needs a huge amount of our resources, both emotional and financial. Having a third child "unplanned" would have been an absolute disaster for our lives, for her, and for her older sister. Totally devastating. I've had the snip now and we never had to go through the trauma of an abortion but for over a year if she was ever even slightly "late" it was panic-stations, and we had essentially pre-decided that if it ever did happen, we would have to get an abortion. The "in this day and age with contraception" argument doesn't hold up that well either as we have had pregnancies on three different types or contraception - pill, coil implant, and condoms. My eldest was conceived while my wife was on the pill, and we have been through two miscarriages.

The second thing that changed my opinion on "life starting at conception", is those two miscarriages. The first was upsetting, the second was a bit of a non-event to be honest, but the important part, is that it's clearly nothing like comparing a one year old to a seven year old. I don't feel like a "father of four" who has had two "children" die. And to be totally frank, I sort of think comparing an early-stage miscarriage to the death of a child or even a stillbirth is grossly offensive to anyone who has actually lost a child. Would you genuinely go up to someone who has had a child die in an accident or of illness and say "Hey man, I totally know what you're going through, we had a miscarriage at 8 weeks".

It's just not the same, or anything even resembling the same.

Also, here's a (for some reason) little known fact: something like 30% of conceptions fail to implant and miscarry within the first two weeks (before the first missed period), without the woman having any idea that she was ever pregnant. Many couples trying to conceive will have multiple of these and never even know. That sounds like an awful lot of child death until you realise that it just... Isn't.

Yes to this too. I suffered a miscarriage right before I got pregnant with my daughter..I was 9 weeks and honestly..it was just like a heavy period, thats it. Not traumatic in itself, though obviously knowing what was going on it was extremely upsetting. If I hadn't known I was pregnant, I probably wouldn't even have known about the miscarriage. To compare that to the thought of having a stillborn (even thinking about that literally brings tears to my eyes) it just...I don't know. Seems really wrong.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Once upon a time I had a fairly similar opinion but it's changed dramatically over the years. The first thing that prompted it really is my second daughter's extra needs. She is wonderful and she is thriving but to do so, she needs a huge amount of our resources, both emotional and financial. Having a third child "unplanned" would have been an absolute disaster for our lives, for her, and for her older sister. Totally devastating. I've had the snip now and we never had to go through the trauma of an abortion but for over a year if she was ever even slightly "late" it was panic-stations, and we had essentially pre-decided that if it ever did happen, we would have to get an abortion. The "in this day and age with contraception" argument doesn't hold up that well either as we have had pregnancies on three different types or contraception - pill, coil implant, and condoms. My eldest was conceived while my wife was on the pill, and we have been through two miscarriages.

The second thing that changed my opinion on "life starting at conception", is those two miscarriages. The first was upsetting, the second was a bit of a non-event to be honest, but the important part, is that it's clearly nothing like comparing a one year old to a seven year old. I don't feel like a "father of four" who has had two "children" die. And to be totally frank, rough, we had a miscarriage at 8 weeks". I sort of think comparing an early-stage miscarriage to the death of a child or even a stillbirth is grossly offensive to anyone who has actually lost a child. Would you genuinely go up to someone who has had a child die in an accident or of illness and say "Hey man, I totally know what you're going through

It's just not the same, or anything even resembling the same.

Also, here's a (for some reason) little known fact: something like 30% of conceptions fail to implant and miscarry within the first two weeks (before the first missed period), without the woman having any idea that she was ever pregnant. Many couples trying to conceive will have multiple of these and never even know. That sounds like an awful lot of child death until you realise that it just... Isn't.

That is your interpretation of what I said and quite frankly I think it is offensive to jump to those sort of conclusions when you could maybe have asked me to explain further.
The longer the child is in the womb and the longer one has the child of course the harder and more devastating the emotional impact is going to be. Of course an early miscarriage although hard is nothing like the death of an child who you have given birth to, nurtured, loved and formed a deep attachment to.
I was referring to stages of life, not the impact of the loss in that particular sentence. Once life is there, it is the beginning of a life irrespective of its stage imo. My wife holds the same view. If she had got pregnant through our carelessness alone she says she wouldn't have aborted the baby.

You say you once had the same view about life starting at conception but your wife's miscarriages changed that view. We have been fortunate enough not to have experienced that and if we had, maybe we would feel differently, maybe not. But it's the view we have always shared and that's that.
I have already stated the many reasons where I believe an abortion would be the best choice and of course your own personal reasons are perfectly understandable and sensible.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

What do you make of those who use contraception but it fails?

This is a matter so close to me right now as I have 2 kids right and really do not want another, and I have the implant in and since getting it in a few months after having my son, I have not had any periods at all...seem to have been one of the lucky ones as doctor said you can either bleed constantly or not at all, or stay as normal. So...no period for like 18 months. In the past 3 months I have randomly started bleeding again, which says to me that the implant is no longer effective. As the doctor told me that the way it works, it alters your hormones or something so thats why it can stop periods. But...to me if it stopped me for 18 months then mine start again, its clearly not altering my hormones in the same way so its no longer working. The doctors though, refuse to remove it and replace it. They insist that its effective until next year. They refuse to let me have any other contraception as apparently its dangerous to take 2 at once. So condoms it is, but even those can fail so tbh I have been pretty celibate for 2 months now as I am **** scared of getting pregnant as even double contraception fails are not that rare. So me and my husband are having some issues as he doesn't understand really..

So we are really back to...females should be totally celibate if they do not want a child

Ugh. Such a tough topic as I know there are actually people who just don't bother with contraception and then act all shocked when they get pregnant. But I see it from the other side as I am so careful but I know there is still a chance I could have another, that I have neither the time nor the space for. And definitely can't afford another. Ontop of that my last pregnancy absolutely broke me. I have a long term disability now..that seems to have been brought on by giving birth and has not yet gone away...

So yeah. Bit of an essay but I can't go for the 'use contraception and you won't have an unwanted pregnancy' thing really. I personally know 2 people who were using 2 forms of contraception and still ended up pregnant so maybe that makes me a bit more paranoid about it...

Jeez Vicky, it's reading experiences like yours that make me glad I wasn't born female. Women have it so much harder than men in many ways.
There was a period of time when we were younger when my wife was terrified of becoming pregnant again and she did because of one night of drunken unprotected sex. We were struggling financially and I was working away from home so much that I wasn't there to support her as much as I wanted to be. We were stupidly careless, (I didn't want to admit that!) we had the baby (our youngest and adored daughter).
What do I make of those who use contraception and it fails? Absolutely pro - choice. I'm only against abortion when it comes to carelessness and particularly selfishness, (even then it's not all black and white and there may be other extenuating circumstances).
It's a really tough subject and when you believe in life from conception it is an even harder one than it is for those who don't and are totally pro - choice.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jet

Jeez Vicky, it's reading experiences like yours that make me glad I wasn't born female. Women have it so much harder than men in many ways.
There was a period of time when we were younger when my wife was terrified of becoming pregnant again and she did because of one night of drunken unprotected sex. We were struggling financially and I was working away from home so much that I wasn't there to support her as much as I wanted to be. We were stupidly careless, we had the baby (our youngest and adored daughter).
What do I make of those who use contraception and it fails? Absolutely pro - choice. I'm only against abortion when it comes to carelessness and particularly selfishness, (even then it's not all black and white and there may be other extenuating circumstances).
It's a really tough subject and when you believe in life from conception it is an even harder one than it is for those who don't and are totally pro - choice.

I just don't get this logic though, how can you be against it sometimes but not others? Like if you believe you're actually killing a baby then surely it's always wrong, no matter what the circumstance?

[jet]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I just don't get this logic though, how can you be against it sometimes but not others? Like if you believe you're actually killing a baby then surely it's always wrong, not matter what the circumstance?

I'm not sure logic can be applied to a subject as emotive as abortion. I just don't think it is always wrong and I've already given my reasons.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jet

I'm not sure logic can be applied to a subject as emotive as abortion. I just don't think it is always wrong and I've already given my reasons.

To me logic should be applied to it though, you either think that an actual baby is dying or you don't though right? I mean if you don't think a baby is dying then what's the problem and if you do then surely it's never ok, no matter what the circumstance? I'm not meaning to sound rude here Jet, I'm just genuinely confused by the people who think it's ok sometimes but not others.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

This is a matter so close to me right now as I have 2 kids right and really do not want another, and I have the implant in and since getting it in a few months after having my son, I have not had any periods at all...seem to have been one of the lucky ones as doctor said you can either bleed constantly or not at all, or stay as normal. So...no period for like 18 months. In the past 3 months I have randomly started bleeding again, which says to me that the implant is no longer effective. As the doctor told me that the way it works, it alters your hormones or something so thats why it can stop periods. But...to me if it stopped me for 18 months then mine start again, its clearly not altering my hormones in the same way so its no longer working. The doctors though, refuse to remove it and replace it. They insist that its effective until next year. They refuse to let me have any other contraception as apparently its dangerous to take 2 at once. So condoms it is, but even those can fail so tbh I have been pretty celibate for 2 months now as I am **** scared of getting pregnant as even double contraception fails are not that rare. So me and my husband are having some issues as he doesn't understand really..

We got pregnant on the pill (first daughter) and also on the coil implant (miscarriage, though most are when there's a coil, as... we... there's a coil in there). My wife wouldn't go back on the pill anyway as they really mess up her hormones, and also we have experience of it not working anyway! We also got pregnant using condoms (the other miscarriage). Only my second daughter was planned, out of 4 pregnancies! Either we have really bad luck or contraception isn't all it's chalked up to be.

I had a vasectomy and officially have zero sperm count now (yaaay) and honestly it's the first time in our lives we haven't had pregnancy worries. I still can't exactly figure out if I recommend it or not. For the peace of mind, definitely, and there is now literally no "symptoms" other than the tiny incision scar, but honest to god I have to say... they are ****ing lying with how simple a procedure they make it out to be, and how short they say the recovery is. I was in bed for 4 days, in significant pain for a good 3 weeks, and still intermittently feeling like I had been kicked in the balls for nearly 5 months.

So I also totally understand why a lot of men aren't willing to go there.

Basically unplanned pregnancies happen, they're a fact of life, no matter how careful people are. The only surefire ways to stop it are surgical, abstinence, and menopause.