[Toy Soldier]

Let's face it, a lot of people are going to consider this to be racist and I think most reasonable people will know that, even if they don't necessarily agree. With that in mind, should people be more culturally sensitive when arranging events like this?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Let's face it, a lot of people are going to consider this to be racist and I think most reasonable people will know that, even if they don't necessarily agree. With that in mind, should people be more culturally sensitive when arranging events like this?

Why, if they don’t agree. It just sounds like emotional blackmail to me. - if you don’t then you are ‘an unreasonable person’. Doesn’t sound the least bit unbiased.

[Toy Soldier]

I just mean that even people who don't think it IS unacceptable will know that some people will find it unacceptable... Even if you find that stance unreasonable. I'm not sure anyone could honestly say "I had no idea anyone would be bothered!" surely.

So then, I guess, the real debate is... In what circumstances is it appropriate to exercise some sensitivity surrounding race issues - even if you personally believe it to be over the top - and when is it appropriate to try to push the boundaries? And in the latter case, where we do go ahead with these things where there is no mocking intent and also, I suppose, a good reason for doing it (e.g. As a celebration of culture, as has been argued for this) then how do we open constructive dialogue so that everyone understands the context and doesn't jump to conclusions about intent? That must be an important part of sorting through all of this.

[chuff me dizzy]

I would hate to live in a sterile world where everyone was brainwashed into thinking the same, and no one having an opinion

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

I would hate to live in a sterile world where everyone was brainwashed into thinking the same, and no one having an opinion

So would I, and so would most people I think, but then isn't it about figuring out how people who do have very different opinions can share and discuss those opinions and reach a compromise or, at least, make sure that those opinions are properly understood so that observers don't come to the wrong conclusion?

Being open minded and taking the time to try to understand a situation is important too, of course; people should try not to be reactionary, and make sure they do fully understand context before assuming intent.

[Marsh.]

It's extremely racist and bigoted.

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

So would I, and so would most people I think, but then isn't it about figuring out how people who do have very different opinions can share and discuss those opinions and reach a compromise or, at least, make sure that those opinions are properly understood so that observers don't come to the wrong conclusion?

Being open minded and taking the time to try to understand a situation is important too, of course; people should try not to be reactionary, and make sure they do fully understand context before assuming intent.

But we are talking about a fancy dress outfit, so are you saying ALL fancy dress outfits should be banned,as Im sure everyone of them will upset some little person with no fun or imagination

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

But we are talking about a fancy dress outfit, so are you saying ALL fancy dress outfits should be banned,as Im sure everyone of them will upset some little person with no fun or imagination

Zulu is fancy dress?

[chuff me dizzy]

http://www.itv.com/goodmorningbritai...-appropriation

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

http://www.itv.com/goodmorningbritai...-appropriation

Does dressing as Moana involve blackface?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

But we are talking about a fancy dress outfit, so are you saying ALL fancy dress outfits should be banned,as Im sure everyone of them will upset some little person with no fun or imagination

I didn't say that anything should be banned, I asked the question of whether there might be a way for people to engage in constructive dialogue so that context is understood, instead of immediately becoming incensed or reactionary. Then maybe more costumes would be considered acceptable? Obviously while it feels combative, it's going to feel mocking.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

It's extremely racist and bigoted.

Are you a Zulu? If not - who made you judge and jury!

[Toy Soldier]

Is there anyone that actually does want to discuss the topic instead of retreading the same old ground?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Is there anyone that actually does want to discuss the topic instead of retreading the same old ground?

No I don’t. Zulus and their descendants would probably differ themselves in their opinions as to whether it was offensive or not - so who decides who is right. Others should do what they feel is okay as long as they are not intending to offend.

If a number of affected people expressed grave concerns maybe people would decide against - but I don’t think it is for whites to speak on the behalf of others - some may consider that patronising.

[chuff me dizzy]

Where does it all end ? No French maid outfits? No berets and garlic ? No hula grass skirts ....The list is endless

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

If a number of affected people expressed grave concerns maybe people would decide against - but I don’t think it is for whites to speak on the behalf of others - some may consider that patronising.

I suppose that's reasonable enough... So long as, I guess, so long as people would be genuinely willing to listen if a significant number of people who are directly impacted express that they don't like it. I think that's all we can really do; actually listen to people. If most black people find white people "blacking up" offensive, then we sort of have to accept that it is offensive?

I guess the only direct comparison I can make pertains to the Moana example; because there is also "Brave", which is absolutely full of "Scottish Stereotypes", and yet I doubt there are many (if any?) Scottish people who find the film offensive or who would have a problem with any child from any country dressing up as the girl from that film. From what I've read of Polynesia, people from the Pacific islands / New Zealand etc. generally feel the same way (they like / enjoy that people from around the world enjoy Polynesian culture, and wouldn't mind kids dressing up as Moana at all).

So certainly it can go too far, and there's a problem where people tend not to consider each situation as it comes and just set their opinion in stone. I will admit that I'm assuming it's inappropriate for White British people to dress as Zulu because of the history there but, being totally honest, I still don't actually know or understand the festival's motivations. If it's just "for a bit of fun" it seems like needlessly kicking a hornet's nest... But if there is some ideology behind it then that might be a different situation.

On the flipside though I think it must be all too easy to "throw the baby out with the bathwater", so to speak, and adamantly declare that ALL costumes are "fine"... There is a reason that blacking up is frowned upon - it has been historically used to deliberately mock, belittle and make fun of black people - and obviously in that context it's never acceptable.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

Where does it all end ? No French maid outfits? No berets and garlic ? No hula grass skirts ....The list is endless

Well that's what I mean too; there needs to be common sense applied at both ends of the scale. It's NOT all or nothing, or it shouldn't have to be, and it's perfectly acceptable to just say that each situation can be considered separately and broad strokes aren't necessary. And I guess the easy way to find that line is just to look at the reasons and whether or not they're respectful. If a kid wants to dress as Moana because Moana is their hero then obviously that is a positive and respectful reason. If someone blacks up their face and feigns an accent because they just think it's "funny" then that isn't positive or respectful and therefore is inappropriate.

I guess I would add to that, that ignorance isn't really an excuse and if, say, someone does want to dress as a Zulu warrior then it's important that they actually bother to learn about the culture and era properly, instead of just going with stereotypes for impact.

With specific regard to the Zulu costume, though, I would GUESS that a concern might be for black people of all backgrounds (which are obviously mostly non-Zulu) that the costume might reinforce stereotypes of black people being "primitive" or "tribal". But it is quite true that it's only a guess, and remains only a guess until comment is heard from affected people.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

No I don’t. Zulus and their descendants would probably differ themselves in their opinions as to whether it was offensive or not - so who decides who is right. Others should do what they feel is okay as long as they are not intending to offend.

If a number of affected people expressed grave concerns maybe people would decide against - but I don’t think it is for whites to speak on the behalf of others - some may consider that patronising.

Pretty much this.
Although I think if something is obviously intended to be racist and deliberately offensive, speaking out is the right thing to do. In this case, Zulu's haven't said they are offended, so getting up in arms could be interpreted as patronising. It's as if they can't speak for themselves and need whites to do it for them.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by jet

Zulu's haven't said they are offended

Things arent offensive until an entire community formally declare their offense?

Is that really how offensiveness works? Or are we being silly?

[jet]

Originally Posted by Withano

Things arent offensive until an entire community formally declare their offense?

Is that really how offensiveness works? Or are we being silly?

Obviously not an entire community...don't be acting silly.
A news article reacting to the event saying that some Zulu's were offended would have sufficed to inform people that they considered it unacceptable. That didn't happen.
I think Zulu's and other races are probably more adept than us whites at understanding intent...

[Withano]

Originally Posted by jet

Obviously not an entire community...don't be acting silly.
A news article reacting to the event saying that some Zulu's were offended would have sufficed to inform people that they considered it unacceptable. That didn't happen.
I think Zulu's and other races are probably more adept than us whites at understanding intent...

So its inoffensive until one or some Zulu's say otherwise? Does that apply to everything ever?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

So its inoffensive until one or some Zulu's say otherwise? Does that apply to everything ever?

How about you do what you feel is right and leave others to do the same!

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

How about you do what you feel is right and leave others to do the same!

How about I can ask why people feel a certain way, and they can answer if they want to or if they can, and thats none of your ****ing business?

[jet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well that's what I mean too; there needs to be common sense applied at both ends of the scale. It's NOT all or nothing, or it shouldn't have to be, and it's perfectly acceptable to just say that each situation can be considered separately and broad strokes aren't necessary. And I guess the easy way to find that line is just to look at the reasons and whether or not they're respectful. If a kid wants to dress as Moana because Moana is their hero then obviously that is a positive and respectful reason. If someone blacks up their face and feigns an accent because they just think it's "funny" then that isn't positive or respectful and therefore is inappropriate.

I guess I would add to that, that ignorance isn't really an excuse and if, say, someone does want to dress as a Zulu warrior then it's important that they actually bother to learn about the culture and era properly, instead of just going with stereotypes for impact.

With specific regard to the Zulu costume, though, I would GUESS that a concern might be for black people of all backgrounds (which are obviously mostly non-Zulu) that the costume might reinforce stereotypes of black people being "primitive" or "tribal". But it is quite true that it's only a guess, and remains only a guess until comment is heard from affected people.

I would agree with all that, TS, apart from the last paragraph. I think it would be a stretch for black people to think anyone was making fun of them by dressing in Zulu costume for a festival. It's a hell of a long time since the majority of black people were primitive or tribal....and white people were once primitive and tribal too...so no dressing as a caveman....

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

How about I can ask why people feel a certain way, and they can answer if they want to or if they can, and thats none of your ****ing business?

Oh were you actually asking .....