[Maru]

Youtube video

(1 hour long)

Great conversation I think. I wanted to share because I want to hear what other people's thoughts on this.

[Oliver_W]

Of course there are only two genders. Some people can make what superficially seems like an argument for there being more, but none of Crowder's sample are up to that!

Spoiler:

#MugClub member

[bots]

interesting how aggressive those that insist on multiple genders become. Saying that misgendering is an act of violence.There an an infinite number of genders, so how would you know in normal conversation if you were misgendering someone or not

[Oliver_W]

What I find interesting about those who wish to be referred to by fake pronouns is they basically want to control how people talk about them, not to them - we don't really use gendered pronouns for someone who's present, it's when they're not there - "where's Mildred?" , "she popped to the shop"

A transwoman wanting to be called she is natural, because she'd want to be treated exactly like a woman, but what does someone who wants to be called "ze" want to be treated like?

[bots]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

What I find interesting about those who wish to be referred to by fake pronouns is they basically want to control how people talk about them, not to them - we don't really use gendered pronouns for someone who's present, it's when they're not there - "where's Mildred?" , "she popped to the shop"

A transwoman wanting to be called she is natural, because she'd want to be treated exactly like a woman, but what does someone who wants to be called "ze" want to be treated like?

if my understanding is correct, gender is being categorised as fluid, so there is potential for someone to identify as something in the morning, and as something entirely differently in the afternoon. How can anyone be certain they are every gendering correctly with that concept

[Tom4784]

I agree partly with that statement but I haven't watched the video since who the hell has time for that? I think non-binary and all of it's ilk shouldn't be treated as it's own gender. I'm all for people expunging societal gender norms but in my eyes, they aren't a different gender and they aren't transexual either, they are just males and females that reject the norm.

I consider people who have transitioned or who are in the process of transitioning as their preferred gender.

[Maru]

Shorter video (4 minutes) but is another example of how identity is now being handled on campuses (at least according to some college students)...

Youtube video

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

if my understanding is correct, gender is being categorised as fluid, so there is potential for someone to identify as something in the morning, and as something entirely differently in the afternoon. How can anyone be certain they are every gendering correctly with that concept

No, gender fluid is only one of the many possible gender identifications. But yeah, it can pretty much changed based on how you feel... and you can make up a new identity tomorrow and the idea is that you dictate what your identity is, nobody can tell you otherwise and must comply (or else you're being violent/offensive)...

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

if my understanding is correct, gender is being categorised as fluid, so there is potential for someone to identify as something in the morning, and as something entirely differently in the afternoon. How can anyone be certain they are every gendering correctly with that concept

That sounds like a bloody woman. Us men are supposed to be bloody mindreaders.

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I agree partly with that statement but I haven't watched the video since who the hell has time for that? I think non-binary and all of it's ilk shouldn't be treated as it's own gender. I'm all for people expunging societal gender norms but in my eyes, they aren't a different gender and they aren't transexual either, they are just males and females that reject the norm.

I consider people who have transitioned or who are in the process of transitioning as their preferred gender.

All this tbh

[Scarlett.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I agree partly with that statement but I haven't watched the video since who the hell has time for that? I think non-binary and all of it's ilk shouldn't be treated as it's own gender. I'm all for people expunging societal gender norms but in my eyes, they aren't a different gender and they aren't transexual either, they are just males and females that reject the norm.

I consider people who have transitioned or who are in the process of transitioning as their preferred gender.

I agree with this, adding all these hundreds of different variations of genders actually harm trans culture in general, since people start taking it less seriously, many people will hear about all these made up genders, and just think its not worth trying to understand it.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I agree partly with that statement but I haven't watched the video since who the hell has time for that? I think non-binary and all of it's ilk shouldn't be treated as it's own gender. I'm all for people expunging societal gender norms but in my eyes, they aren't a different gender and they aren't transexual either, they are just males and females that reject the norm.

I consider people who have transitioned or who are in the process of transitioning as their preferred gender

Me too.

[Northern Monkey]

That last guy interviewed gave me some hope for humanity.The very worrying thing is that the younger ones interviewed are being taught such inaccurate and unbiological ideas like some kind of ideology and in national institutions of education.
If gender is some kind of undefinable spectrum in which nobody knows the parameters then how can it possibly be enshrined into law in countries like Canada.
It’s f’king crazy.

[Brillopad]

It’s all ballony - as seen in the video where people were reluctantly agreeing that if he saw himself as a 7-year old he could join a class of 7-year olds. Students are too PC because they are young and want to fit in. Such thinking can be dangerous because it doesn’t allow for the privacy and safety of others. It’s only focus is to think with the crowd.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

That last guy interviewed gave me some hope for humanity.The very worrying thing is that the younger ones interviewed are being taught such inaccurate and unbiological ideas like some kind of ideology and in national institutions of education.
If gender is some kind of undefinable spectrum in which nobody knows the parameters then how can it possibly be enshrined into law in countries like Canada.
It’s f’king crazy.

It IS f'king crazy... but that's the education system in this country for you. Any further Left and it'll slip off the edge.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Livia

It IS f'king crazy... but that's the education system in this country for you. Any further Left and it'll slip off the edge.

Yes. Sheer madness.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It’s all ballony - as seen in the video where people were reluctantly agreeing that if he saw himself as a 7-year old he could join a class of 7-year olds. Students are too PC because they are young and want to fit in. Such thinking can be dangerous because it doesn’t allow for the privacy and safety of others. It’s only focus is to think with the crowd.

Well no he couldn't. Most people who have an alternative persona are sane and if they are sane, they understand its just a persona. So if a 7 year old persona reasoned with himself, he knows he couldn't join a class of 7 year olds because his reality is, he's actually just an adult who likes to fantasize sometimes about being a 7 year old. In other words he can snap out of it and go back to being a lorry driver or whatever.
On the other hand, if he really did believe he was a 7 year old, he would be deemed as mentally ill and a mentally ill person wouldn't and couldn't be permitted near class of 7 year olds.
So regardless of what these students think, its not something that could ever happen and perhaps one day they will grow up enough to understand that.

[Firewire]

Boys wearing dresses and liking barbies does should not warrant a non-binary identity, in my opinion.

I think gender goes beyond that, though. But I think we need to look at why people are identifying as other genders to fully comprehend clashing characteristics of plainly male and female. Why can't you identify as a man or woman but have characteristics of both? I think the world's attitude towards what makes a "real" man or woman are the cause of this. Times have changed and so have a lot of attitudes.

I could start wearing women's clothing and wear make-up, but I still would identify as a man. But then I don't fully understand it.

[Jamie89]

My take on it is that there are 2 genders because the concept of gender is based on there being 2 biological sexes but how people view gender and how they feel about being categorised as'one or the other' is changing as our view of gender roles change (it's no coincidence that the further we move away from the idea that men and women should play particular roles in society the further we expand our perception of what gender is). So i think the talk about 'alternative' genders really is just an expression of all that, and it's good that people are questioning and breaking away from more traditional views about the sexes (and although gender as a social construct is based on biology, it's determined by culture, so maybe there doesn't have to be a strict unchanging answer to the question anyway )

And I think it's important as well to differentiate between gender in this context and 'gender identity' in relation to transsexuals, as trans people often view their gender as binary (hence transitioning from one to the other) and for them it's more strongly linked with their biology and the feeling that their biology is incorrect. Whereas people who consider themselves for example gender non-conforming, non-binary, etc etc often don't have those issues and are simply expressing how they view themselves in relation to societal constructs, which is my understanding of it anyway.

[DemolitionRed]

And btw, this sort of stuff has been going on for a long long time. I started going to alternative clubs when I was not actually old enough to go. The reason I went isn't because I'm a fetishst but because there were two clubs close to my home and because I liked hanging out with the alternative scene. I remember my amusement at first seeing adult babies, cross dressers, adults dressed in school uniforms, women dressed as goddesses, blonde bimbos dressed as topless geisha girls, people dressed as ponies and dogs and cats. I can remember this adult baby guy approaching me dressed in a diaper with a mop hat and frilly plastic pants... dummy in mouth and as he got up to me he removed his dummy and said in a deep voice, "have you got a light love?"

I grew to embrace their diversity. When I branched into running London clubs I even held a few fetish balls. All they are doing is exploring their silly side; their inner child or fantasy and I see that as harmless, providing they don't try and push their fetish on someone else. I've always said, if you want to explore a side to you that the public would see as 'odd' or 'disturbing' then make sure its within a consensual setting. Once you start taking stuff like that into the public eye it becomes none consensual. People don't understand it... clearly.

There were always people back then who longed for their fetish to be accepted by the public, just as there are people now attempting to be 'out there'. Regardless of what all these silly students are saying, these people need to be told to **** off. Keep it behind closed doors or take it to an alternative club but DONT push it in the publics face.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It’s all ballony - as seen in the video where people were reluctantly agreeing that if he saw himself as a 7-year old he could join a class of 7-year olds. Students are too PC because they are young and want to fit in. Such thinking can be dangerous because it doesn’t allow for the privacy and safety of others. It’s only focus is to think with the crowd.

BIB this isn't too PC (which is really overused nowadays as a substitute for left wing ideology) it's idiotic that some people want to create so many fake gender identities just because they don't fit in with the "normal tastes" of the gender that they actually are or have transitioned as.

To me you're either male or female unless your anatomy says otherwise, but I know that's a controversial opinion because of some of the transgender group sometimes still having some of the sexual parts of the gender that they was born with and not had the full operation.

[Ammi]

...It was a really interesting discussion, Maru...I think the lady he interviewed confused it a bit with her ‘act of violence’ which she didn’t correct but I think she must have meant act of violation...(..see how I’m automatically assuming their genders which is what he was saying, we do obviously assume these things...)...this is something I’m quite interested in atm but actually quite conflicted, I don’t know what my stance is tbh and the discussion didn’t really help me feel any more clear......because I can understand both sides...from the perspective he was presenting..?...yeah I can see that he felt legislation to be moving toward it being unacceptable in a genuine error being made and no offence meant etc...that recognising more than two genders becomes not only confusing but also impossible unless we know how many and can clearly identify them etc...?...just basically impossible for society...I unders5and that and the difficulty..but then...isn’t that also denying a possibility of..?...society is only accepting of two because the possibility of anything else is being closed down to...?...hmmm, it also feels like it’s encouraging trans surgery more as the only option someone might have because of society then only recognising gender if that became the case...?... when surely with surgery and the potential risks even with a general anaesthetic etc...then it shouldn’t be something that became ‘forced’ to have gender recognition.....hmmm, as I say I’ve become very interested in this recently but apologies, I’m still not that knowledgeable about it and quite easily confused...I do totally see the interviewers points but I guess don’t like the thought of possibilities closed down to because two possibilities are all society has ever known....

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...It was a really interesting discussion, Maru...I think the lady he interviewed confused it a bit with her ‘act of violence’ which she didn’t correct but I think she must have meant act of violation...(..see how I’m automatically assuming their genders which is what he was saying, we do obviously assume these things...).

No, she meant violence. There's a youtuber called Riley Dennis who made a video sperging on about how misgendering is violence.

Youtube video