[Robodog]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

1. One person doesn't speak for a movement.

2. A voice damning a movement doesn't rob it of it's validity either.

3. As for your final point, it's called reading between the lines.
The fact that you are suggesting civil rights group help perpetuate these issues further than if they were silent says it all. It's that silence you're after.

1. Erm... A leader DOES speak for a movement.
You think that level of racism is acceptable?
I don't.
Not by ANYONE, black or white.
Justify it, ignore it all you like.
But you cannot seriously claim to be for equality if you do.

2. The open letter raises some serious questions about the potential harm of the metoo movement for both men AND women and it's impact on how we flirt, seduce, approach and perceive each other.

Again you can ignore it if you want to, but you cannot claim to be for social righteousness if you are so ready to dismiss such serious concerns.

3. It's not called 'reading between the lines'. It's called 'you putting words into my mouth'

Nowhere have i asked for anyone's silence.
Quite the reverse, i have opened up this thread for discussion!
Sounds like you are the one trying to do the silencing of any perspective that threatens your own narrative.

You want equality and fair treatment?
So do I.
On that we can agree.
The question is how do we achieve that?

You seem to be defending the 'group think' approach.
Judging by the examples given such as the BLM's racist demands. i can't see how that can do anything but make it worse.

I'm saying take the individualist approach.

Pursue the INDIVIDUALS for the crimes they commit: whether that is white cops killing innocent blacks or muslim men raping white girls.

Pursuing those individuals by law, will send out the message to any other would-be criminals that such treatment of others is not acceptable.

No need to demonise all whites or all cops due to the criminal actions of certain individuals.
No need to demonise all muslims for the criminal actions of certain individuals.

I can think of nothing more racist or more destructive than continuing down that path.

[Robodog]

To clarify. This is what i'm talking about:

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.

Martin Luther King, Jr.


.

[Vicky.]

"I really believe - just take people as they are. Take the bloody labels off!"

Indeed. The ****ing amount of labels youngsters give themselves/others is bloody insane. Everything needs a label. Not a girly girl? Non-binary. Prefer romance to sex, aromantic. And so on. Its ridiculous. The amount of labels Shane came out with the other night is just pathetic (I semi suspect he was taking the piss, but that really is how a lot of people think these days). Sorry but it is. There really is no need. People are people. We do not need a label to outline every single aspect of your personality.

[Paula D]

Originally Posted by Robodog

1. Erm... A leader DOES speak for a movement.
You think that level of racism is acceptable?
I don't.
Not by ANYONE, black or white.
Justify it, ignore it all you like.
But you cannot seriously claim to be for equality if you do.

2. The open letter raises some serious questions about the potential harm of the metoo movement for both men AND women and it's impact on how we flirt, seduce, approach and perceive each other.

Again you can ignore it if you want to, but you cannot claim to be for social righteousness if you are so ready to dismiss such serious concerns.

3. It's not called 'reading between the lines'. It's called 'you putting words into my mouth'

Nowhere have i asked for anyone's silence.
Quite the reverse, i have opened up this thread for discussion!
Sounds like you are the one trying to do the silencing of any perspective that threatens your own narrative.

You want equality and fair treatment?
So do I.
On that we can agree.
The question is how do we achieve that?

You seem to be defending the 'group think' approach.
Judging by the examples given such as the BLM's racist demands. i can't see how that can do anything but make it worse.

I'm saying take the individualist approach.

Pursue the INDIVIDUALS for the crimes they commit: whether that is white cops killing innocent blacks or muslim men raping white girls.

Pursuing those individuals by law, will send out the message to any other would-be criminals that such treatment of others is not acceptable.

No need to demonise all whites or all cops due to the criminal actions of certain individuals.
No need to demonise all muslims for the criminal actions of certain individuals.

I can think of nothing more racist or more destructive than continuing down that path.

Very very well said Robo.

To be honest I think it takes a lot of years to come to the realisation that PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE.

In my younger days I would of made judgements about people based on their "group" now I take each individual as I find them.

That comes with age which is why Wayne and Amanda have it.

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[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by luvjustin

This is all any civil rights movement has tried to do over the rears though.

Black Lives Matter.

Stonewall.

Me Too.

None of these group were/are looking for special treatment. They are just drawing attention to the fact that they are not treated equally to everyone else. And if so,W special treatment is required to get everyone to the same level then that is also fair.



And the reason poeple have historically been grouped off (gay people/black people) is because they have been forced to.

Also agree with this. Equality is not what should be strived for really. Equity is important. Equality is not always the fairest way to do things as it does not happen in a vacuum and you have to acknowledge how different groups are treat and the struggles they do face. Yes laws are pretty much equal now, but actual treatment of people day to day is not.

[poppsywoppsy]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Indeed. The ****ing amount of labels youngsters give themselves/others is bloody insane. Everything needs a label. Not a girly girl? Non-binary. Prefer romance to sex, aromantic. And so on. Its ridiculous. The amount of labels Shane came out with the other night is just pathetic (I semi suspect he was taking the piss, but that really is how a lot of people think these days). Sorry but it is. There really is no need. People are people. We do not need a label to outline every single aspect of your personality.

Excellent xx

[Robodog]

Originally Posted by Paula D

Very very well said Robo.

To be honest I think it takes a lot of years to come to the realisation that PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE.

In my younger days I would of made judgements about people based on their "group" now I take each individual as I find them.

That comes with age which is why Wayne and Amanda have it.

Thanks Paula

Yes, I went through the same thing. Used to see groups before people.

With age, comes wisdom.

You see the pitfalls of your old perceptions.

And the importance of evolving them.

[Paula D]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Also agree with this. Equality is not what should be strived for really. Equity is important. Equality is not always the fairest way to do things as it does not happen in a vacuum and you have to acknowledge how different groups are treat and the struggles they do face. Yes laws are pretty much equal now, but actual treatment of people day to day is not.

I honestly don't see it Vicky. Maybe the UK is different to Ireland but I don't see gay people or people of a different race treated any differently in day to day life.

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[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Paula D

I honestly don't see it Vicky. Maybe the UK is different to Ireland but I don't see gay people or people of a different race treated any differently in day to day life.

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Im in the Uk and I can't see it either

[Marches]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Indeed. The ****ing amount of labels youngsters give themselves/others is bloody insane. Everything needs a label. Not a girly girl? Non-binary. Prefer romance to sex, aromantic. And so on. Its ridiculous. The amount of labels Shane came out with the other night is just pathetic (I semi suspect he was taking the piss, but that really is how a lot of people think these days). Sorry but it is. There really is no need. People are people. We do not need a label to outline every single aspect of your personality.

He wasn’t being ironic he did it in his vt too

[Marches]

Originally Posted by Paula D

I honestly don't see it Vicky. Maybe the UK is different to Ireland but I don't see gay people or people of a different race treated any differently in day to day life.

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The worst I’ve ever been discriminated for being gay was at school where they mocked me for it. They also mocked my hair, shoes, voice, acne, basically everything. A lot of young people and maybe even people in general is that they want to pull as many things as possible into like discrimatory labels that have other meanings or intent to them as well. They just want to paint the entire world as sexist, homophobic, racist ect

There was a quote from Ann day 1 in the house that went something like ‘a girl came up to me in parliament and said ‘isn’t it bad how men treat us’ and they didn’t treat her bad because she was a woman they treated her bad because she was useless’

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Paula D

I honestly don't see it Vicky. Maybe the UK is different to Ireland but I don't see gay people or people of a different race treated any differently in day to day life.

Yeah I get that some people don't get/see it. I think sometimes unless you are part of the disadvantaged group its something you just won't get as everything does seem to be equal. Like, I will try to explain what I mean from the POV of a woman...who do have equal rights in law from men, but are still disadvantaged anyway. If I go for a job interview, I know that there is a quite large chance that I will be discriminated against for being the age I am and female, as employers think I may go off on maternity leave soon. Whilst they are not allowed to actually not pick me for that reason, it does happen and all they have to say is 'well the man was best for the job'. Its against the law to discriminate based on sex, but it happens and people just have ways around it. At the same time, I am at very large risk of sexual assault, simply for being female. Yes, it is against the law to sexually assault someone, but again, it happens, and a LOT.

I could go on and on about this but I figure this is probably enough and anymore will have me labelled a raving lunatic There are so many different ways people experience discrimination that are not necessarily about the law being unequal. This is why I believe equity is better than equality. Equality totally ignores the various ways that people are still discriminated against. Equality is a great idea, but its just not feasible in reality, if everyone started off on equal footing, then it would be different, but they do not. Sometimes treating everyone equal is the most unfair thing you can do.

Edited to add. I don't walk around feeling sorry for myself because I am a woman and may face discrimination or be attacked for something I cannot change mind. But I do acknowledge that I am likely to be disadvantaged due to my sex.

[Miranda123]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

The fact that people are more upset about these civil rights groups being loud about their cause rather than the inequality that is causing them to stand up and make themselves known in the first place says it all really.

A lot of the 'oh we don't need labels, we don't need this/that' mentality that comes from people who aren't part of the demographic protesting is simply just another way of saying 'you need to be quiet, we like the status quo'.

I have been part of the demographic since childhood, as part of an Irish Catholic Traveller family, the first to live in an actual house, so please dont assume you know me or anyone else writing on here

Professional victimhood is the name of the game now, and why ?

because the young, today, dont want to think, or feel, for themselves, so they go online to see HOW they should think and feel, and read a load of drivel from other professional victims

I had a friend who killed himself because his family would not accept him being gay, that was an horrendous time and I would not wish that feeling on anyone, but the only thing he wanted, was to be seen as who he was, a loving, kind, intelligent man, who treated everyone with respect if they deserved it, and the only thing he wanted was for his family to see him as their Son/Brother, and not the 'Gay' man he was, because just as heterosexuals do not share their sexual preferences around the dinner table, he did not see why his sexual preference was the 'elephant in the room'

The day we dont ask, an obviously gay man, if he is gay, or an obviously black person, where they/their parents are from will be a day to celebrate

Of course we will still have the snowflakes crying into their quinoa but seriously, who gives a f..k!

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Marches

The worst I’ve ever been discriminated for being gay was at school where they mocked me for it. They also mocked my hair, shoes, voice, acne, basically everything. A lot of young people and maybe even people in general is that they want to pull as many things as possible into like discrimatory labels that have other meanings or intent to them as well. They just want to paint the entire world as sexist, homophobic, racist ect

There was a quote from Ann day 1 in the house that went something like ‘a girl came up to me in parliament and said ‘isn’t it bad how men treat us’ and they didn’t treat her bad because she was a woman they treated her bad because she was useless’

Lots of children get this treatment too, nothing to do with sexuality

[Miranda123]

Originally Posted by Marches

But it’s not troubling Shane Jenek nobody in that house is discriminating against him

Wouldnt he just love it if they were

He has been dying for Ann to get personal and rude, but she hasnt, he must be gutted

His 'professional victim' status isnt working lol

[Miranda123]

Originally Posted by Robodog

You are missing the point

It's about how best to liberate ourselves from a dangerous mentality that judges people not as individuals - but according to their 'type'.
We have to move away from 'group-think' and embrace individualism.
As individuals we stand equal
But once you start segregating people into groups and then judging them according to your social barometer, then we are in trouble. That's how racism works.

Of course we all agree that the KKK and misogynist attitudes are wrong for how they demonise innocent people according to their race or gender.
But Black Lives Matter and the #MeToo movement - also do the same thing: judge people according to race and gender!
It's just the same mentality in reverse!

Innocent white people are demonised by BLM, and innocent men are demonised by #MeToo

TRUE that racists and misogynists started this racial/gender divide - but we have to be SO careful not to perpetuate it by doing the EXACT same thing and demonising innocent INDIVIDUALS out of some kind of 'social revenge'.

Crimes against blacks or women were not committed by ALL whites or ALL men - so why demonise the whole genre?

It's like blaming ALL MUSLIMS for the attacks by ISIS!

Crimes were committed by INDIVIDUALS and those people must be held to account.
Don't blame their whole race/gender or religion!

.

Bloody well said!!!

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Miranda123

Wouldnt he just love it if they were

He has been dying for Ann to get personal and rude, but she hasnt, he must be gutted

His 'professional victim' status isnt working lol

Oh yes,his plan has failed miserably

[Miranda123]

Originally Posted by Robodog

1. Here are BLM's demands for white people

https://www.leoweekly.com/2017/08/white-people/

2. Women denouncing metoo and it's negative effects on men and women

http://metro.co.uk/2018/01/10/cather...etter-7218327/

3. Give me an example of when i wanted to shut anyone up!

I'm discussing constructive ways to evolve beyond the corrosive and divisive mentality of social stereotypes.

I'm denouncing racism, misogyny and religious bigotry and saying how we must be careful not to perpetuate it further.

I'm discussing equality in a meaningful way by embracing us as individuals - not as groups!

It's all there in my posts.

Can't see how you can miss all that unless

a) you haven't read my posts properly or
b) you are deliberately ignoring it

.

You know snowflakes ignore all reason, cause it doesnt fit with the narrative of the lefty brainwashing they suffer at the hands of middle class twats at home and at school

The middle class are responsible for this and must be destroyed

Hows that for fairness lol

[Paula D]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yeah I get that some people don't get/see it. I think sometimes unless you are part of the disadvantaged group its something you just won't get as everything does seem to be equal. Like, I will try to explain what I mean from the POV of a woman...who do have equal rights in law from men, but are still disadvantaged anyway. If I go for a job interview, I know that there is a quite large chance that I will be discriminated against for being the age I am and female, as employers think I may go off on maternity leave soon. Whilst they are not allowed to actually not pick me for that reason, it does happen and all they have to say is 'well the man was best for the job'. Its against the law to discriminate based on sex, but it happens and people just have ways around it. At the same time, I am at very large risk of sexual assault, simply for being female. Yes, it is against the law to sexually assault someone, but again, it happens, and a LOT.

I could go on and on about this but I figure this is probably enough and anymore will have me labelled a raving lunatic There are so many different ways people experience discrimination that are not necessarily about the law being unequal. This is why I believe equity is better than equality. Equality totally ignores the various ways that people are still discriminated against. Equality is a great idea, but its just not feasible in reality, if everyone started off on equal footing, then it would be different, but they do not. Sometimes treating everyone equal is the most unfair thing you can do.

Edited to add. I don't walk around feeling sorry for myself because I am a woman and may face discrimination or be attacked for something I cannot change mind. But I do acknowledge that I am likely to be disadvantaged due to my sex.

Yeah I agree with all that and understand it but in the 2 examples you give they are both down to individuals.

The individual who won't hire a woman and the individual who will carry out a sexual assault.

What I'm trying to say is we can only change one person and that's ourselves. That in turn filters down to our children and so on and so on.

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[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Paula D

Yeah I agree with all that and understand it but in the 2 examples you give they are both down to individuals.

The individual who won't hire a woman and the individual who will carry out a sexual assault.

What I'm trying to say is we can only change one person and that's ourselves. That in turn filters down to our children and so on and so on.

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Well yes, I guess it is down to individuals, but it is a lot of individuals. Hence its still a huge problem for a lot of people. If it was just the odd person who thought that way then it wouldn't be so much of a problem, but its not. Its a significant minority and it does hold people back for reasons they cannot help or change.

I do think as time goes on things will actually become more equal. But for now, things are not equal in reality even though the law is equal.

The bolded bit I definitely agree with.

[bitontheslide]

i have no issue with a group promoting equality for a group that is disadvantaged, however, there always comes a point where that group misrepresents the members it is supposed to represent. Why? because no one thinks the same, no one faces exactly the same challenges. As the group approaches gaining equality, it feels it has to justify itself by demanding more and more and at that point people kick back against it and association with that group becomes more of a hindrance than an advantage. There are countless examples of this throughout history. As a group only so much can be achieved and then its up to the individual, because believe it or not, life just isn't fair, it doesn't work like that. Some have to work much harder to achieve their aims than others. That will never change, because we are not born equal.

[poppsywoppsy]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yeah I get that some people don't get/see it. I think sometimes unless you are part of the disadvantaged group its something you just won't get as everything does seem to be equal. Like, I will try to explain what I mean from the POV of a woman...who do have equal rights in law from men, but are still disadvantaged anyway. If I go for a job interview, I know that there is a quite large chance that I will be discriminated against for being the age I am and female, as employers think I may go off on maternity leave soon. Whilst they are not allowed to actually not pick me for that reason, it does happen and all they have to say is 'well the man was best for the job'. Its against the law to discriminate based on sex, but it happens and people just have ways around it. At the same time, I am at very large risk of sexual assault, simply for being female. Yes, it is against the law to sexually assault someone, but again, it happens, and a LOT.

I could go on and on about this but I figure this is probably enough and anymore will have me labelled a raving lunatic There are so many different ways people experience discrimination that are not necessarily about the law being unequal. This is why I believe equity is better than equality. Equality totally ignores the various ways that people are still discriminated against. Equality is a great idea, but its just not feasible in reality, if everyone started off on equal footing, then it would be different, but they do not. Sometimes treating everyone equal is the most unfair thing you can do.

Edited to add. I don't walk around feeling sorry for myself because I am a woman and may face discrimination or be attacked for something I cannot change mind. But I do acknowledge that I am likely to be disadvantaged due to my sex.

This happened to me just after I gained my qualifications as a mature student.

I had years of workplace experience as well and applied for a job in London and went for an interview. The man looked at my CV asked about my work and at the end of the interview said I was too old to lead his young team, this was his only comment. I immediately said he couldn't say this and went to the local job centre for advice.

They found out later that he employed a man older than me with no qualifications. I took it to tribunal where he said I had not enough experience and supplied my CV with the whole page of my working life, missing.
I had his solicitor ring me with threats saying my claim was malicious and I would be liable for high court costs. I told him to get lost or I would report him for harassment.

On the morning of the tribunal, they conceded without going to court. I refused to accept their first measly offer but accepted a second.

This is just my experience of how a woman of an age was treated in the workplace.

I spent some of the money on a lovely trip to Hong Kong, Thailand and Singapore, I sent him a postcard saying thanks

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by poppsywoppsy

This happened to me just after I gained my qualifications as a mature student.

I had years of workplace experience as well and applied for a job in London and went for an interview. The man looked at my CV asked about my work and at the end of the interview said I was too old to lead his young team, this was his only comment. I immediately said he couldn't say this and went to the local job centre for advice.

They found out later that he employed a man older than me with no qualifications. I took it to tribunal where he said I had not enough experience and supplied my CV with the whole page of my working life, missing.
I had his solicitor ring me with threats saying my claim was malicious and I would be liable for high court costs. I told him to get lost or I would report him for harassment.

On the morning of the tribunal, they conceded without going to court. I refused to accept their first measly offer but accepted a second.

This is just my experience of how a woman of an age was treated in the workplace.

I spent some of the money on a lovely trip to Hong Kong, Thailand and Singapore, I sent him a postcard saying thanks

and thats how to deal with discrimination

[Robodog]

Originally Posted by Miranda123

You know snowflakes ignore all reason, cause it doesnt fit with the narrative of the lefty brainwashing they suffer at the hands of middle class twats at home and at school

The middle class are responsible for this and must be destroyed

Hows that for fairness lol

It's the 'everybody gets a trophy' way of educating/training.

It's created a sense of mass entitlement and for many - an inability to deal with facts and perspectives that challenge their own narrative.
Not good for when you cut the apron strings and hit the real world.
That's why so many people today can't have a discussion without immediately labelling their opponent and shutting down the debate.

The media doesn't help either, the way it stirs up division and hate on a daily basis.


I reckon all 18-21 year olds should be required to work in a third world country for a month. A government scheme like national service.

Nothing makes you grow up quicker, have respect for others and appreciate what you've got.

That would sort out the first world problems from the REAL issues.

.