[kirklancaster]

Reposted due to formatting problem

[kirklancaster]

Kizzy;9951533] "This is a discussion forum there are no 'winners and losers'. Should I be accused of being anti British or any other slur I will be sure to raise that within the thread, or report. "

^This is actually a ''SERIOUS DEBATES forum by Official Title, and in any type of Debate, there is ALWAYS a 'Winner' be that by Formal Judging decision or 'Audience Perception Conviction' in a 'Community' such as this one."

ANYONE who engages in a Debate on this forum is seeking to achieve MORE than merely airing an OPINION or they would NOT keep returning to the thread to ARGUE against COUNTER OPINIONS.

No, they are seeking to CONVINCE that their OPINION, their VIEW, their PREMISE, is the CORRECT one.

Failing to convince becomes apparent in Debate/Discussions on TIBB when more members are DRAWN into the thread who argue AGAINST the opinion or PREMISE than who do FOR that Premise.

The above by the way is all too often seized upon by those who DO perceive themselves to be losing a debate and used to wrongly complain about 'Gangs' and 'Tag-Teaming' etc when it is simply the fact that there are MORE members who DISAGREE with a premise and the following arguments supporting that premise, than there are members agreeing with it.

Failing to convince and 'losing' an argument also becomes apparent when the opposing argument is weighted with corroborating FACTS which are irrefutable.

The phrase 'Losing An argument' HAS a counterpart.

"'You are not in any position to point out any vile remarks'... Be assured I am and I will, if made on this forum regardless what is said in the wider community."

^ I am completely baffled as to why you include the above in a response to me because I have NEVER uttered the words which you have reproduced in inverted commas???

Good for you though that you are so diligent and vigilant when it comes to policing the forum for 'vile' remarks.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Its not losing an argument though is it. When two people are up against a dozen who mock, clap and laugh at anything we say its more like losing the will to live.



Its funny how counter argument is often accused of being off topic or pointless waffle. There are plenty of answers coming from your opposition. Just because you don't agree doesn't make them 'no answers'!


I'd like to see you sit in my shoes for a day in here. Even when I write something positive and agreeable, people jump on me and pick holes in what I say. It feels like I'm surrounded by spit hating enemies. I've watched people like me on here stop posting or apologizing upfront before they post anything that may cause a reaction by a mob of posters. Sometimes its clearly a case of, if you can't beat em, join em.
I've had emails on here telling me certain people pm him and try and pester him to come and join in a thread to knock me back. Perhaps he's just a siht stirrer but whether its true or not, its an insidious style of bullying. And yes, I do feel bullied. Perhaps that's because as well as being sensitive towards other peoples misfortune, I'm also sensitive by nature. That doesn't make me a weak person, it just makes me someone who cares passionately about certain issues.


Oh come on Kirk, you love a heated debate.
You keep saying 'losing' as though this is some sort of competition. Does there have to be a winner and a loser in a debate? How many people on here come up with long counter arguments? you do but you are one few, not many. If you want to make this a competition then allow for real counter argument and stop believing that the one liner brigade count in a debate.


There are a few people in here who want to get energetic with a post and want to put in their ten penneth worth. There are people in here who seem to thrive on anger and look for insult. This is why threads often go on page after page.

I only come on here because I'm politically minded and enjoy a debate but the debates on here of late have become so one sided because most of the Left no longer post. I'm only here because I'm stubborn and refuse to be chased out but I can't see that lasting. I'm finding it all a bit much. I left here last night feeling so frustrated. I woke up last night thinking about some of the things some people on here are saying and I lay there feeling thoroughly deflated. This isn't a healthy environment for people like me who sit to the Left so I doubt I'll be around on here much longer.


See, there you go, accusing us of tosh. Apart from when I'm replying to flippant troll like posts, I give time and thought to my responses. Just as you have knowledge from your sources, I have knowledge from mine. I am staunchly anti-racist. I'm passionate about human rights and I believe May and her government are dreadful. Those are the things that I talk about, debate, try and reason with.

After re-reading what I've just written, the realization that this place is, on an emotional level, a very unhealthy place for me to express any opinion. I've just sold a painting. We've just bought a new home and I've just had a promotion at work but I'm on here getting frustrated and depressed. I think its time I went off and enjoyed the fruits of my labor.

..since reading your words, DR...I’ve deliberated a bit about whether I should respond...I haven’t contributed to this discussion is one thing...but also, I personally have often felt hostility from you, from the off really...so I’m probably not the right person, anyway....but hey ho, here I am.....

...you say it’s not a competition with a winner../..loser, type thing...which is true, that isn’t what ‘debate’ is in its fundamentals...but then..(..you appear, unless I’m misunderstanding...)...to have looked through past threads and then brought some things from those into this thread...things that have no value or bearing to anti-semitism within the Labour Party...which does very much have a feeling of...haha, there you go...of it being a competition of ‘having the last word’...that you yourself feel as though there has to be a ‘winner or a loser’ as well....I mean, I just can’t see any other value of bringing in past threads and past words etc...


...’spit hating enemies’...I read your blog DR about detoxing..?...and you mentioned ‘hate’ in there...(...I did want to do a post in the blog but it’s didnt seem to have the facility for response..)...you have assumed ‘hate’ from others for you...?...there are many emotions I think we all see in SD, particularly with political debates...but ‘hate’ is not one of those emotions I personally have ever seen from anyone and for anyone...irritation, anger, frustration etc and such the like ...and yes, that has led to ‘personal and insulting’...on many occasions from different people...but even through that, hate has never been displayed so far as I can see....and yet you say that you feel hate yourself toward people...that’s something I think you need to address yourself, DR...whether you do genuinely feel ‘hate’ toward forum members...but I doubt you do though...I mean genuinely feel it...you just don’t seem like a ‘hate’ person to me....but you do seem like a very frustrated person...when you say..’even when I post something positive’...?...hmmmmm, well I guess when you’ve expressed much negativity about the forum in general and specific people etc also...that positive stuff has kind of been countered somewhat...so maybe ‘holes are picked’ more readily because of negativity and hostility others have felt from you as well..?...I don’t know, I am trying to put myself in your shoes, as you say DR...but I’m also trying to slip on the shoes of others as well...to try to see why the whole thing of political stuff does seem to be more ‘point scoring’ and a winner../..loser thing....


...anyways DR...with your last paragraph and how things in your life are for you know atm...maybe it’s time for you not to be here any more and to go off and enjoy...?...etc....but you have and have had all of those things in your life..and yet you’ve still felt you’ve wanted to be part of discussions on TiBB because as you say, you’re politically minded...so that ‘political mind’ needs a voice as well and a release to create balance...how could you keep your political mind if you just go off and enjoy all the good stuff in your life right now......


...what I’m trying to say, DR...is that I feel quite confident that there is no ‘hate’ felt toward you from anyone on this forum...(..regardless of how frustrating some threads can become at times..)...and I also feel and sense that you don’t feel ‘hate’ either toward anyone....you’re here as we all are..because despite all of ‘the silliness and mess’ at times...we all get something quite positive from being here as well...so log back on when you’re ready, yeah....

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

My father-in-law is a Polish Jew and he just looks caucasian. He certainly doesn't look Middle Eastern no matter how hard I stare at him!

LOOK, let me put a stop to all this NONSENSE.

I related a perfectly true, small but amusing incident which happened to me in a car park in York, and I posted it on CHAT - not Serious Debates.

A COMPLETELY innocent remark which I made during that post has been SEIZED upon by certain members for THEIR OWN PURPOSES, then TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT, and replicated UNTRUTHFULLY.

HERE below is EXACTLY what I wrote:

"As I neared him I saw that he was obviously Jewish and resembled Woody Allen and he was still pressing his fob like mad and trying to open the van door. "

"As I neared him I saw that he was obviously Jewish"

DOES that sentence SAY that:

1) ALL Jewish people HAVE a 'Jewish Look'?
2) ALL Jewish people have a MIDDLE EASTERN look?

NO, IT DOES NOT.

Does that sentence say that:

3) 'Looking Jewish' is a BAD thing?

It says quite innocuously that IN THE CASE OF THIS PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL as I neared him it was obvious that he was Jewish.

He did not wear a 'Kippah' and nor was he dancing around my van singing 'Hava Nagila' but JUST AS CERTAINLY as if it had been Woody Allen himself trying my van door, or Rabbi Lionel Blue or Jackie Mason or Mel Brooks - I could TELL that HE was Jewish.

So perhaps we can drop the disingenuous posts about any 'JEWISH LOOK' because I did NOT say any such thing and all the ensuing 'HOO-HA' is based squarely on DELIBERATE MISREPRESENTATION.

As for your 'Polish Jew' Father-In-Law - So what? NO ONE is saying that ALL people who are Jewish LOOK 'Middle-Eastern' - I AM MOST CERTAINLY NOT because I KNOW differently.

In my youth, I dated the most beautiful girl in Sheffield. She had a fair complexion, vivid blue eyes and long blond hair. She was Jewish and proudly wore a Star of David gold medallion around her neck.

SHE did not look Jewish and NOT everyone who is Jewish LOOKS Jewish so can we now PLEASE leave this B.S. here?

[Ammi]

...I’m hopeless with thoughts and words in the mornings...well most times of day tbh...but DR, whether you and I have found any connection at all personally...I do feel you contribute a lot with debates and discussions...people agreeing with you is not really the focus..it’s just really about your own thoughts etc and your own ‘passion’...in my heart, I feel that you feel much positivity in contributing and being part of the forum a well and part of debates...so there is no ‘pointless’ involved...don’t walk away from something that gives you something so much that you’ve felt the need to contribute in the ways that you have...keep going with that ‘fight’...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..since reading your words, DR...I’ve deliberated a bit about whether I should respond...I haven’t contributed to this discussion is one thing...but also, I personally have often felt hostility from you, from the off really...so I’m probably not the right person, anyway....but hey ho, here I am.....

...you say it’s not a competition with a winner../..loser, type thing...which is true, that isn’t what ‘debate’ is in its fundamentals...but then..(..you appear, unless I’m misunderstanding...)...to have looked through past threads and then brought some things from those into this thread...things that have no value or bearing to anti-semitism within the Labour Party...which does very much have a feeling of...haha, there you go...of it being a competition of ‘having the last word’...that you yourself feel as though there has to be a ‘winner or a loser’ as well....I mean, I just can’t see any other value of bringing in past threads and past words etc...


...’spit hating enemies’...I read your blog DR about detoxing..?...and you mentioned ‘hate’ in there...(...I did want to do a post in the blog but it’s didnt seem to have the facility for response..)...you have assumed ‘hate’ from others for you...?...there are many emotions I think we all see in SD, particularly with political debates...but ‘hate’ is not one of those emotions I personally have ever seen from anyone and for anyone...irritation, anger, frustration etc and such the like ...and yes, that has led to ‘personal and insulting’...on many occasions from different people...but even through that, hate has never been displayed so far as I can see....and yet you say that you feel hate yourself toward people...that’s something I think you need to address yourself, DR...whether you do genuinely feel ‘hate’ toward forum members...but I doubt you do though...I mean genuinely feel it...you just don’t seem like a ‘hate’ person to me....but you do seem like a very frustrated person...when you say..’even when I post something positive’...?...hmmmmm, well I guess when you’ve expressed much negativity about the forum in general and specific people etc also...that positive stuff has kind of been countered somewhat...so maybe ‘holes are picked’ more readily because of negativity and hostility others have felt from you as well..?...I don’t know, I am trying to put myself in your shoes, as you say DR...but I’m also trying to slip on the shoes of others as well...to try to see why the whole thing of political stuff does seem to be more ‘point scoring’ and a winner../..loser thing....


...anyways DR...with your last paragraph and how things in your life are for you know atm...maybe it’s time for you not to be here any more and to go off and enjoy...?...etc....but you have and have had all of those things in your life..and yet you’ve still felt you’ve wanted to be part of discussions on TiBB because as you say, you’re politically minded...so that ‘political mind’ needs a voice as well and a release to create balance...how could you keep your political mind if you just go off and enjoy all the good stuff in your life right now......


...what I’m trying to say, DR...is that I feel quite confident that there is no ‘hate’ felt toward you from anyone on this forum...(..regardless of how frustrating some threads can become at times..)...and I also feel and sense that you don’t feel ‘hate’ either toward anyone....you’re here as we all are..because despite all of ‘the silliness and mess’ at times...we all get something quite positive from being here as well...so log back on when you’re ready, yeah....

Another BEAUTIFUL insightful post Ammi.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..since reading your words, DR...I’ve deliberated a bit about whether I should respond...I haven’t contributed to this discussion is one thing...but also, I personally have often felt hostility from you, from the off really...so I’m probably not the right person, anyway....but hey ho, here I am.....

...you say it’s not a competition with a winner../..loser, type thing...which is true, that isn’t what ‘debate’ is in its fundamentals...but then..(..you appear, unless I’m misunderstanding...)...to have looked through past threads and then brought some things from those into this thread...things that have no value or bearing to anti-semitism within the Labour Party...which does very much have a feeling of...haha, there you go...of it being a competition of ‘having the last word’...that you yourself feel as though there has to be a ‘winner or a loser’ as well....I mean, I just can’t see any other value of bringing in past threads and past words etc...


...’spit hating enemies’...I read your blog DR about detoxing..?...and you mentioned ‘hate’ in there...(...I did want to do a post in the blog but it’s didnt seem to have the facility for response..)...you have assumed ‘hate’ from others for you...?...there are many emotions I think we all see in SD, particularly with political debates...but ‘hate’ is not one of those emotions I personally have ever seen from anyone and for anyone...irritation, anger, frustration etc and such the like ...and yes, that has led to ‘personal and insulting’...on many occasions from different people...but even through that, hate has never been displayed so far as I can see....and yet you say that you feel hate yourself toward people...that’s something I think you need to address yourself, DR...whether you do genuinely feel ‘hate’ toward forum members...but I doubt you do though...I mean genuinely feel it...you just don’t seem like a ‘hate’ person to me....but you do seem like a very frustrated person...when you say..’even when I post something positive’...?...hmmmmm, well I guess when you’ve expressed much negativity about the forum in general and specific people etc also...that positive stuff has kind of been countered somewhat...so maybe ‘holes are picked’ more readily because of negativity and hostility others have felt from you as well..?...I don’t know, I am trying to put myself in your shoes, as you say DR...but I’m also trying to slip on the shoes of others as well...to try to see why the whole thing of political stuff does seem to be more ‘point scoring’ and a winner../..loser thing....


...anyways DR...with your last paragraph and how things in your life are for you know atm...maybe it’s time for you not to be here any more and to go off and enjoy...?...etc....but you have and have had all of those things in your life..and yet you’ve still felt you’ve wanted to be part of discussions on TiBB because as you say, you’re politically minded...so that ‘political mind’ needs a voice as well and a release to create balance...how could you keep your political mind if you just go off and enjoy all the good stuff in your life right now......


...what I’m trying to say, DR...is that I feel quite confident that there is no ‘hate’ felt toward you from anyone on this forum...(..regardless of how frustrating some threads can become at times..)...and I also feel and sense that you don’t feel ‘hate’ either toward anyone....you’re here as we all are..because despite all of ‘the silliness and mess’ at times...we all get something quite positive from being here as well...so log back on when you’re ready, yeah....

That's a great post Ammi, very caring but honest.

[Livia]

Thought y'all would appreciate a little light humour...

Spoiler:

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Livia

Thought y'all would appreciate a little light humour...

Spoiler:

wasn't expecting that

[Livia]

Hey Kaz. I have this theory that Jews generally have a great sense of humour because they have to deal with anti-Semitic bullcrap every ten to twenty years. It's like the world's taking turns!

[Twosugars]

ten to twenty years? that's optimistic

[Toy Soldier]

I've always quite like jews but, I have to be honest, it's mainly because of Jeff Goldblum in Independence Day.

[LeatherTrumpet]

the problem with jews is the whole god bollocks, if they would just admit there is not god then its quite a decent club

good food, humour, hard working, good family stuff (minus the child mutilation) and catchy music

[Twosugars]

loads of Jews are not religious and it doesn't seem to make much difference

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

the problem with jews is the whole god bollocks, if they would just admit there is not god then its quite a decent club

good food, humour, hard working, good family stuff (minus the child mutilation) and catchy music

I reckon they're closer to giving up the supernatural element than the other religions, to be fair. Catholics are up there too to be fair. You really do not have to believe in God at all to be Catholic.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

the problem with jews is the whole god bollocks, if they would just admit there is not god then its quite a decent club

good food, humour, hard working, good family stuff (minus the child mutilation) and catchy music

We will know when Jeremy has turned a corner when he starts whistling fiddler on the roof

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Livia

Hey Kaz. I have this theory that Jews generally have a great sense of humour because they have to deal with anti-Semitic bullcrap every ten to twenty years. It's like the world's taking turns!

Well when I worked in New York as a nanny to a Jewish family ,they were the most hospitable,wonderful people I ever met,I am still in touch with them now,I was told by the grandma stories about the holocaust, it was so interesting and sad,but the old lady was so lovely I will never forget her,I lived with them for a year,so got to know them pretty well,my fave people ever.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

the problem with jews is the whole god bollocks, if they would just admit there is not god then its quite a decent club

good food, humour, hard working, good family stuff (minus the child mutilation) and catchy music

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I reckon they're closer to giving up the supernatural element than the other religions, to be fair. Catholics are up there too to be fair. You really do not have to believe in God at all to be Catholic.

You two should watch Simon Schama's Story of the Jews. You might understand why we're still here, despite millennia of being cast out of various countries, of being massacred and stripped of everything but our holy books, we're still here. And we still believe.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

You two should watch Simon Schama's Story of the Jews. You might understand why we're still here, despite millennia of being cast out of various countries, of being massacred and stripped of everything but our holy books, we're still here. And we still believe.

Well... You still believe, and I'm sure many still believe, but if you're claiming that everyone who considers themself to be "culturally Jewish" is actually religious or believes in God then you are just being economical with the truth.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well... You still believe, and I'm sure many still believe, but if you're claiming that everyone who considers themself to be "culturally Jewish" is actually religious or believes in God then you are just being economical with the truth.

When have I ever said I speak for every Jew? Maybe it's you being economical with the truth? I'm not the one wildly generalising about Jews.

The fact is, TS, if we were discussing Islamophobia people would be up in arms. But it's the Jews. And some people are genuinely unmoved by the fact that there is anti-Semitism in the country, let alone the Labour party.

I'm kind of tired of having it explained to me, and excuses made for it.

[Livia]

Labour Party of Israel cuts all ties with Corbyn's office.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Labour Party of Israel cuts all ties with Corbyn's office.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

What can't speak can't lie as my Mam used to say

[jet]

Originally Posted by Livia

When have I ever said I speak for every Jew? Maybe it's you being economical with the truth? I'm not the one wildly generalising about Jews.

The fact is, TS, if we were discussing Islamophobia people would be up in arms. But it's the Jews. And some people are genuinely unmoved by the fact that there is anti-Semitism in the country, let alone the Labour party.

I'm kind of tired of having it explained to me, and excuses made for it.

Yes, some cry racist at the slightest opportunity but when it comes to antisemitism they write the biggest load of crap trying to make excuses for it. It's been a real eye opener; odd how they only 'care' when it suits their own agenda's. Sickening.

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by jet

Yes, some cry racist at the slightest opportunity but when it comes to antisemitism they write the biggest load of crap trying to make excuses for it. It's been a real eye opener; odd how they only 'care' when it suits their own agenda's. Sickening.

All true

[jet]

Great, astute posts from Kirk and Ammi as always.