[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by montblanc

stop acting as if their running across the field with banners and screaming stuff during the national anthem

they're silently and peacefully kneeling down during a song

It isn’t just a song is it.

[montblanc]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It isn’t just a song is it.

it is

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I can see where the NFL is coming from.
People watch sports to escape from all the serious crap going on in the world.
When the anthem is played it’s live on TV,Part of the show and they are representing their organisation.
I’d guess that ratings went down when these players started bringing politics into the sport.
Pissing off a section of your audience is very bad for business.
I’d think any company would punish or sack employees that started to harm their image.
Leave politics out of sport.Let people enjoy it.

Right. I don't even think that it has to do specifically with it being a particular message of any sort of affiliation... if anyone, right or left, interrupted the anthem during an NFL game then it's not necessarily going to go well with the base which is known to be very patriotic and has always considered it to be a unifying sport... like subtle messages during the halftime show (such as Gaga 2018) and post-game interviews, that's not really a big deal at all since it's just the player's personal opinions...

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by montblanc

it is

Not to the NFL who are their employers - and not to many of the Americans who attend the matches who also pay their salaries.

[Headie]

So when they sing 'land of the free' they obviously only mean for a select few

[montblanc]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Not to the NFL who are their employers - and not to many of the Americans who attend the matches who also pay their salaries.

it is to the many americans that still suffer from the institutionalized and blatant racism displayed by "the land of the free and the home of the brave"

[montblanc]

Originally Posted by Hayden

So when they sing 'land of the free' they obviously only mean for a select few

Originally Posted by montblanc

it is to the many americans that still suffer from the institutionalized and blatant racism displayed by "the land of the free and the home of the brave"

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by montblanc

it is to the many americans that still suffer from the institutionalized and blatant racism displayed by "the land of the free and the home of the brave"

And that has nothing to do with the NFL. Again they can protest in their own time - not try to do it at their employer’s expense.

[montblanc]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

And that has nothing to do with the NFL. Again they can protest in their own time - not try to do it at their employer’s expense.

we can agree to disagree i guess

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Maru

I don't agree with that really. I think that people who are for the large part fairly apolitical are starting to vote for their feet and I don't think it's a sudden thing. We're assuming that the US has a high population of hyper-partisanship. I think that's far too kind. Maybe it seems that way because the left dominates so much of media (and social media in many cases) and it can seem like it's always reciprocal effect, but there are still many people who are quite apathetic towards politics and are turned off when it comes up in conversations. It's not something people like to talk about for that reason, because it's always been an emotionally toxic topic and it is even more-so given the 2016 election(s)...

Anyway, I don't think it's as simple as shutting off out of outrage. I think it happens overtime as people are turned off by shifts in advertising, sports coverage and other "notable" figures using that airtime to get up on the pulpit. It has a negative effect on sports in general is my opinion.

There is also a trend that can be seen with polling, primary numbers (already way too low) and the presidential vote having a very low turn-out, where people really just feel the whole thing is rigged ...if I were running the NFL, it's not something I would want to be associated with the sport (that feeling of something being "rigged")... but politics has saturated all media and it knows no boundaries atm. So the more it gets injected into the sport and nothing to mitigate this, I think it turns some people off from the game. We're only accounting for the Republicans/Trump voters when we are talking about gauging the reaction of people who watch... I think it is seriously affecting apolitical folk as well... and I don't think that people boycott so much as news coverage likes to make it seem based on politics... there are a lot of people who love the game enough they will watch and gripe, but I imagine it's probably a combination of all other things plus the fact politics has saturated all media. I don't think the NFL is the only one who has witnessed this effect. That's why I don't really see it as just this or that. I think add it all together, people don't personally appreciate being "advertised to" when they're ready to relax in front of their favorite show... and a lot of the advertisements as well have gone that direction (that's why Superbowl it became less political this year as well).

The other pet peeve I hear from folk here, the NFL has always done things a certain way in some respects and to see the sport change and for it to buckle in this way and allow demonstrations ruins the spirit of the game for some. But honestly I think it's more of a saturation problem than a knee-jerk response... people are too fickle when it comes to boycotts for it to be just that.

What an absolutely superbly written and insightful post, Maru, and oh so true.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by montblanc

we can agree to disagree i guess

[Shaun]

if they took their political protest off the field they'd just be accused of virtue-signalling or attention-seeking, and get a ton of "it's easy for you to say, in your $$$$$ mansions!" complaints. And then athletes who don't engage in politics, charity or local communities are accused of being selfish and shallow. Seems a lose-lose situation.

I don't know the words to the UK national anthem beyond the first verse - as I'm sure many here don't - but funnily enough it would be within my rights to say that's because it's a dreadfully dreary piece of music that should've been replaced with 'Jerusalem' months ago (I understand replacing things with Jerusalem is a little bit contentious lately, though ). I also am not a royalist so feel no sense of loyalty to the anthem. Does that mean I'm unpatriotic? If you're a royalist, sure. Key phrasing being 'if' though. To make a long post short: there shouldn't be a holy veil of protection around tokens and gestures of a country's sovereignty.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by montblanc

it is to the many americans that still suffer from the institutionalized and blatant racism displayed by "the land of the free and the home of the brave"

So because someone got elected that people feel is a true racist (which I'm not saying they don't have good reason to feel as such, they absolutely do), it now nullifies everything that America has stood for, all the blood that our ancestors spilled, all the people we liberated, all the amazing achievements we've made as a nation, including the strives we've made in civil rights... all the other rights we enjoy as individuals, the flag and constitution has nothing to do with these things?...

That's the epitome of privilege. Which is why so many folk are going to be turned off by those antics during the anthem. Donald Trump's vote count was lower than John McCain's iirc. Maybe the left needs to look at themselves and realizes if maybe if part of the reason they lost is because of their behavior... and it's not because the US is an evil entity out to ruin people's lives... there is far more evidence of the latter.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Maru

Business-wise, they're probably doing it to protect their viewing numbers. The NFL has been taking a ratings hit and some suspect it's do with the politicization... it has 0 to do with being Right-wing. Politics has seeped into every TV show, every life performance, etc... some of my favorite shows became heavily politicized and I stopped watching because it took away from the immersion in some cases. It's not that I don't care about politics, I listen and watch to a lot of different forms of political media in my own time, but it's gone way overboard here in the States and is ruining entertainment...

I think the NBA did the same thing. Good call imo... if they want to be an activist for some cause, do it in their own time and not on someone else's dime. It's a little bit different than a player being interviewed and someone asking what their cause(s), opinions are... that I think is OK... but during a live show, it's literally preaching and it's gone quite a bit overboard in the US as far as live entertainment. It's become quite toxic.

The problem is the national anthem is always already political. So too is a flag. Hell, acknowledging the existence of national borders is political. There is no "true" escape from politics because it exists all around us. So really, forcing people to 'respect' a national anthem is a political move in and of itself.

This would be a lot worse if there wasn't an option for players to stay in the dressing room (and hopefully it's done on a mass scale for maximum embarrassment), but it still doesn't sit well with me that in a country that is supposed to be one of the bastions of western democracy, people are being told they can't peacefully protest during a political song.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Maru

So because someone got elected that people feel is a true racist (which I'm not saying they don't have good reason to feel as such, they absolutely do), it now nullifies everything that America has stood for, all the blood that our ancestors spilled, all the people we liberated, all the amazing achievements we've made as a nation, including the strives we've made in civil rights... all the other rights we enjoy as individuals, the flag and constitution has nothing to do with these things?...

That's the epitome of privilege. Which is why so many folk are going to be turned off by those antics during the anthem. Donald Trump's vote count was lower than John McCain's iirc. Maybe the left needs to look at themselves and realizes if maybe if part of the reason they lost is because of their behavior... and it's not because the US is an evil entity out to ruin people's lives... there is far more evidence of the latter.

Well said!

[montblanc]

Originally Posted by Maru

So because someone got elected that people feel is a true racist (which I'm not saying they don't have good reason to feel as such, they absolutely do), it now nullifies everything that America has stood for, all the blood that our ancestors spilled, all the people we liberated, all the amazing achievements we've made as a nation, including the strives we've made in civil rights... all the other rights we enjoy as individuals, the flag and constitution has nothing to do with these things?...

That's the epitome of privilege. Which is why so many folk are going to be turned off by those antics during the anthem. Donald Trump's vote count was lower than John McCain's iirc. Maybe the left needs to look at themselves and realizes if maybe if part of the reason they lost is because of their behavior... and it's not because the US is an evil entity out to ruin people's lives... there is far more evidence of the latter.

the U.S. national anthem protests started before Trump was elected if i'm not mistaken?

and even so while America does have such achievements racism is far from gone especially in this country and people need to acknowledge that

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Jack_

The problem is the national anthem is always already political. So too is a flag. Hell, acknowledging the existence of national borders is political. There is no "true" escape from politics because it exists all around us. So really, forcing people to 'respect' a national anthem is a political move in and of itself.

This would be a lot worse if there wasn't an option for players to stay in the dressing room (and hopefully it's done on a mass scale for maximum embarrassment), but it still doesn't sit well with me that in a country that is supposed to be one of the bastions of western democracy, people are being told they can't peacefully protest during a political song.

Politics has nothing to do with customs though. Every culture and every nation has some sort of custom when it comes to the flag. If you and I were in a country that had an anthem and a custom, we would be expected to follow that custom. That's any country, Western or not. To the do the opposite is simply anti-social behavior... and it's this anti-social behavior that is turns most people off of politics. Maybe some people are in favor of anti-social displays.. but I don't think any social fabric, much less a culture, would last very long in political turmoil without some sort of mutual custom(s) and unifying philosophy/ideology.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by montblanc

the U.S. national anthem protests started before Trump was elected if i'm not mistaken?

and even so while America does have such achievements racism is far from gone especially in this country and people need to acknowledge that

People disagree though on the prevalence of racism. That also has to be acknowledged.

Anyway, The NFL doesn't need to pick a side. I completely understand their decision, and it's understandable why people would see the gesture as simply disrespectful (regardless of their political views) when all other media is saturated with all these messages...

[bitontheslide]

there should be zero politics in sport. Take a look at what happened to the Manchester City Manager when he did a silent protest by wearing a ribbon in support of Catalonia here in the UK .... Removing any form of political statement from sport is the correct solution.

[Brother Leon]

Spoiler:

[Matthew.]

im sorry, just… what?
i simply dont see any logic here at all.

it’s the same as that “should kids sing the national anthem in schools?” debate - to which my answer is NO - because the world just seems to be going backwards at the minute.

what a carry on.

[James]

Yeah, I can see why people want to keep political gestures out of sport. Politics is very divisive, and people who are okay with it in sport, when it is a cause they agree with - like BLM - are often against if it was something they opposed like, say, supporting Trump.

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

there should be zero politics in sport. Take a look at what happened to the Manchester City Manager when he did a silent protest by wearing a ribbon in support of Catalonia here in the UK .... Removing any form of political statement from sport is the correct solution.

I was just going to mention Pep Guardiola's ribbon. People in this country didn't care much about it, because not many people here have strong views, or much interest, about that issue. But if it was something that was a controversial issue in the UK (eg. Brexit) there would be a lot against it.

The FA chief executive [Martin Glenn] said:

....."We have re-written Law 4 of the game so that things like a poppy are OK. But things that are going to be highly divisive, and that could be strong religious symbols, it could be the Star of David, it could be the hammer and sickle, it could be a swastika, anything like Robert Mugabe on your shirt, these are the things we don't want," he told UK newspapers.

"And to be honest, and to be very clear, Pep Guardiola's yellow ribbon is a political symbol, it's a symbol of Catalan independence. And, I can tell, you there are many more Spaniards, non-Catalans, who are p***** off by it.

"All we are doing is even-handedly applying the Laws of the Game. Poppies are not political symbols; that yellow ribbon is."

Glenn questioned where the FA would stop if it allowed Guardiola to continue wearing his ribbon.

"Where do you draw the line – should we have someone with a UKIP [UK Independence Party] badge, someone with an ISIS badge?" he said.

"That's why you have to be pretty tough that local, regional, national party organisations cannot use football shirts to represent them."

From http://www.goal.com/en/news/should-w...p1aher9969pkez

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

On the company’s time - sports stars are no different to anyone else and should keep it out of the workplace.

How dare they kneel on company time!

Of course the NFL is different to a normal workplace, it's silly to pretend it is. NFL stars are visible and known to millions of people and this ban sends a message 'You're allowed opinions, just as long as it doesn't offend our sensitive right wing overlords.'

These stars weren't stopping a match and wheeling out a board to preach politics, they were making a harmless statement that didn't affect the game at all but became a story because it offended a bunch of white people who don't want to acknowledge the fact that black people are being abused and killed by officers that should be protecting them.

The NFL have shown themselves to be spineless bitches with this ban.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by James

Yeah, I can see why people want to keep political gestures out of sport. Politics is very divisive, and people who are okay with it in sport, when it is a cause they agree with - like BLM - are often against if it was something they opposed like, say, supporting Trump.



I was just going to mention Pep Guardiola's ribbon. People in this country didn't care much about it, because not many people here have strong views, or much interest, about that issue. But if it was something that was a controversial issue in the UK (eg. Brexit) there would be a lot against it.

The FA chief executive [Martin Glenn] said:



From http://www.goal.com/en/news/should-w...p1aher9969pkez

As it's been said above, if they want to keep politics out of sports then why are they singing the national anthem? Why do they have flags in the stadium? Everything in this world is political and the only reason why this story got such a backlash is because certain people can't handle politics when it doesn't affect them even if it's just a minor gesture like kneeling.

[James]

It's an American thing to play their national anthem before (domestic) sporting events. I thought they did it before music concerts also, but I can't find any evidence that happens.