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Old 24-06-2018, 09:45 AM #1
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Default Bill C16 - quite a forest fire

http://www.barrelstrength.com/2017/1...mbukkana-obey/

I completely agree with Peterson on this - like most sane people who don’t support such enforced control over free speech, debate and communication - total backwards step for democracy!

Rambukkana is a control freak, a bully and a complete tool!

Sadly Canada is going way down hill in my estimation. Preventing hate crimes by effectively trying to control peoples’ right to free-speech and debate is pointless and will only cause more problems than it solves. You don’t change peoples’ thought processes through force - when will people learn! Very sinister development and one that will not prevail! Talk about a war of words!

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Old 24-06-2018, 10:02 AM #2
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"The question is: is he right? Have entire lines of thought been criminalized in Canada by C-16?* The answer is no, not yet, but the practical effect of Bill C-16, which deals with gender identity and gender expression is already seen in the assertions of Professor Rambukkana."

From the article itself.


So I do agree with what you're saying in principle Brillo, and I 100% agree that forcing people to change their speech can never and will never change their thoughts. It just puts a plug in them, causing the "pressure" of those thoughts to build and eventually explode. Free speech and open dialogue is the ONLY way forward.

However, as per the above quote, it seems like in this case the problem is not entirely the bill itself or Canadian law, but more that one academic on a power-trip has misinterpreted the law... Either genuinely misunderstanding it, or deliberately pretending it means something else to use as an intimidation tactic (and knowing the managerial side of academia, it's sadly likely to be the latter).
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Old 24-06-2018, 11:16 AM #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brillopad View Post
http://www.barrelstrength.com/2017/1...mbukkana-obey/

I completely agree with Peterson on this - like most sane people who don’t support such enforced control over free speech, debate and communication - total backwards step for democracy!

Rambukkana is a control freak, a bully and a complete tool!

Sadly Canada is going way down hill in my estimation. Preventing hate crimes by effectively trying to control peoples’ right to free-speech and debate is pointless and will only cause more problems than it solves. You don’t change peoples’ thought processes through force - when will people learn! Very sinister development and one that will not prevail! Talk about a war of words!



Wrong.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...night-leave-eu
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Old 24-06-2018, 11:23 AM #4
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Sorry I donít trust a word either said or reported by the Guardian. One-sided drivel on most occasions.

The enforcement of such laws will likely have the opposite effect - and as I said lead to more problems than solved. You cannot force people into your way of thinking - legally or otherwise.
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Old 24-06-2018, 11:28 AM #5
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The article in the OP seems hopelessly biased so I'm gonna go read up on this story from some varied sources to get a grasp of what it's about.
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Old 24-06-2018, 11:33 AM #6
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What is Bill C-16?

The bill proposes adding gender identity and gender orientation to the Canadian Human Rights Act. This means that it would become illegal under the Act to deny someone a job or discriminate against them in the workplace based on the gender they identify with or outwardly express.

If passed, the bill would also add gender identity and gender expression to the Criminal Code in two ways:

Section 718.2 is about what principles should be taken into consideration when a court imposes a sentence.
Section 718.2(a) is about how a sentence should be increased or reduced to account for any relevant aggravating or mitigating circumstances.
Section 718.2(a)(i) speaks about offences where evidence shows that action was motivated by bias, prejudice, or hate based on social groups. This list already includes race, national or ethnic origin, language, colour, religion, sex, age, mental or physical disability, and sexual orientation.

2. Section 318 is about hate propaganda.

Subsection 318(4) adds gender identity and gender expression to the definition of an identifiable group for the purposes of ďadvocating genocide.Ē This legislation would protect transgender and gender non-binary peoples from being a targeted group in an act of genocide.
I don't really see anything about restricting free speech in there or imprisoning people if you refer to them with the wrong pronoun?
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Old 24-06-2018, 11:57 AM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brillopad View Post
Sorry I donít trust a word either said or reported by the Guardian. One-sided drivel on most occasions.

The enforcement of such laws will likely have the opposite effect - and as I said lead to more problems than solved. You cannot force people into your way of thinking - legally or otherwise.
Not this occasion, I did try but it didn't work to include emails sent from Aaron Banks that are included in the report, that was the reason for the link. These emails are being scrutinised now as part of his questioning by the select committee.

One email sent on the 13th of December states,

' Can we do a daily mail front page but also look at each tory MP rebel and see what we can find about them re expenses scandal and any other interests.'

The head of social media strategy at Leave.EU then asked,

' Is saying there must be consequesses for their actions too menacing post- Jo Cox'

He replies,

'No we need the push deselection by local branch target chairman etc let's discuss tomorrow'

So there you have it you can force people to think what you want them to think, you get your media friends to put on the front page of a tabloid to be read at several million breakfast tables.
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Old 24-06-2018, 12:11 PM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kizzy View Post
Not this occasion, I did try but it didn't work to include emails sent from Aaron Banks that are included in the report, that was the reason for the link. These emails are being scrutinised now as part of his questioning by the select committee.

One email sent on the 13th of December states,

' Can we do a daily mail front page but also look at each tory MP rebel and see what we can find about them re expenses scandal and any other interests.'

The head of social media strategy at Leave.EU then asked,

' Is saying there must be consequesses for their actions too menacing post- Jo Cox'

He replies,

'No we need the push deselection by local branch target chairman etc let's discuss tomorrow'

So there you have it you can force people to think what you want them to think, you get your media friends to put on the front page of a tabloid to be read at several million breakfast tables.
THatís not forcing, thatís encouraging. Hardly the same as creating laws that try to change thought processes by threats of criminal punishment. They are a world apart on both the effectiveness and morality charts.
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Old 24-06-2018, 12:23 PM #9
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Originally Posted by Brillopad View Post
THat’s not forcing, that’s encouraging. Hardly the same as creating laws that try to change thought processes by threats of criminal punishment. They are a world apart on both the effectiveness and morality charts.
As does the 'blog' you have in the OP.

'Have entire lines of thought been criminalized in Canada by C-16? The answer is no'

What is the point of this whole thing?... that C-16 might be misinterpreted by those who claim it does more than it says on the tin... or it has the potential to?

Nah, I think what is clear here is that this is a hatchet job specifically targeting one Nathan Ramukkana, similarly it parallels the email I mentioned, there is someone we don't agree with... we must discredit them, this opinion piece attempts to do just that, and that alone.
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Old 24-06-2018, 12:28 PM #10
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As does the 'blog' you have in the OP.

'Have entire lines of thought been criminalized in Canada by C-16? The answer is no'

What is the point of this whole thing?... that C-16 might be misinterpreted by those who claim it does more than it says on the tin... or it has the potential to?

Nah, I think what is clear here is that this is a hatchet job specifically targeting one Nathan Ramukkana, similarly it parallels the email I mentioned, there is someone we don't agree with... we must discredit them, this opinion piece attempts to do just that, and that alone.
This opinion piece was based on the fact the Bill exists and all that that entails and the bullying behaviour of Ramukkana to that teaching assistant and in general. I picked that particular article because I agreed with its stance just as you do when you present many a Guardian article as reference.
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Old 24-06-2018, 12:29 PM #11
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Quote:
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THatís not forcing, thatís encouraging. Hardly the same as creating laws that try to change thought processes by threats of criminal punishment. They are a world apart on both the effectiveness and morality charts.
Again, though, even the article you posted clearly states that these laws do NOT exist and are NOT being implemented. The issue is that this higher-up academic is being dishonest about the bill in order to intimidate his colleague and to try to stifle her teaching style that he doesn't agree with.

Which is a huge problem, yes, but a very different problem that goes on all the time. People try to scare people into (and out of) all sorts of things by lying about what is and isn't legal, and (very sadly) there are a lot of these people in high or middle positions within academics. Like to throw their weight around and do NOT like to be questioned, and will happily be dishonest in order to bully other staff and students into silence. These people don't belong in Universities, at all, but it's a problem everywhere.
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Old 24-06-2018, 12:44 PM #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brillopad View Post
This opinion piece was based on the fact the Bill exists and all that that entails and the bullying behaviour of Ramukkana to that teaching assistant and in general. I picked that particular article because I agreed with its stance just as you do when you present many a Guardian article as reference.
Yes it's a fact the bill exists... the opinion of what that means re free speech is a fabrication.
The behaviour of the academics in that instance were questioned and no action taken, it has no bearing on C-16 or Mr Ramukkana in relation to their respective effectiveness.

I'm not sure how you equate someones musings with a reputable news source but I'll leave it there.
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Old 24-06-2018, 12:47 PM #13
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Originally Posted by Toy Soldier View Post
Again, though, even the article you posted clearly states that these laws do NOT exist and are NOT being implemented. The issue is that this higher-up academic is being dishonest about the bill in order to intimidate his colleague and to try to stifle her teaching style that he doesn't agree with.

Which is a huge problem, yes, but a very different problem that goes on all the time. People try to scare people into (and out of) all sorts of things by lying about what is and isn't legal, and (very sadly) there are a lot of these people in high or middle positions within academics. Like to throw their weight around and do NOT like to be questioned, and will happily be dishonest in order to bully other staff and students into silence. These people don't belong in Universities, at all, but it's a problem everywhere.
That's assuming he understood the relatively new legislation himself... there's nothing to say he wasn't misinformed too.
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Old 24-06-2018, 12:57 PM #14
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That's assuming he understood the relatively new legislation himself... there's nothing to say he wasn't misinformed too.
Given what can be assumed about his personal beliefs from his chosen areas of study, and how toxic and combative I know the management side of academia can be at times, I very much doubt it and suspect he was using it deliberately to further a specific agenda.

Admittedly, of course, that's just personal opinion / suspicion.
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Old 24-06-2018, 01:10 PM #15
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From the Link
2016 clip Jordan at his University in Canada.
At the start.


Yes Jordan
is right - No need for violence.

Last edited by arista; 24-06-2018 at 01:15 PM.
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