[arista]

I knew she would bring up Karen White
who went in a female prison and raped
women prisoners.

White had a penis.

[Underscore]

I agree 70% with the feminist and 30% with India tbh...

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by MB.

Correction: not a feminist

Idg why people are making articles “feminist does something .....” for these women who quite clearly aren’t feminists

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Idg why people are making articles “feminist does something .....” for these women who quite clearly aren’t feminists

To be logical though, you can't have your cake and eat it too surely. If it's all about self determination, then if this woman self-identifies as being part of a branch of feminism, then she is a feminist. It's an easy / lazy solution to say "Simples; she is not a real feminist".

It's like... When an act of violence is committed in the name of Islam people are happy to call it "Muslim extremism", but when an act of violence is committed in the name of Christianity people are quick to say "Simples; that person is not a real Christian"...

Surely the crux of trans rights issues is that if someone declares themselves to identify as something, then no one can tell them that they shouldn't or are not that thing.

Why would that suddenly no longer be true of feminism?

Is it simply because it's uncomfortable and ideologically problematic to admit that - whether you personally consider it to be a twisted definition or not - she is indeed some brand of feminist?

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To be logical though, you can't have your cake and eat it too surely. If it's all about self determination, then if this woman self-identifies as being part of a branch of feminism, then she is a feminist. It's an easy / lazy solution to say "Simples; she is not a real feminist".

It's like... When an act of violence is committed in the name of Islam people are happy to call it "Muslim extremism", but when an act of violence is committed in the name of Christianity people are quick to say "Simples; that person is not a real Christian"...

Surely the crux of trans rights issues is that if someone declares themselves to identify as something, then no one can tell them that they shouldn't or are not that thing.

Why would that suddenly no longer be true of feminism?

Is it simply because it's uncomfortable and ideologically problematic to admit that - whether you personally consider it to be a twisted definition or not - she is indeed some brand of feminist?

...(..sorry I have to rush so this is just an initial thing to what you say, TS..]...

..there are differences in what you’re comparing though...feminism is a choice, we are not born feminists...extremism is a choice, we’re not born to be extremists...a trans person though..?...is born as a woman inside the body of a man, their body doesn’t match what they were born as..(...as with trans who are women born in men’s bodies..)...and they had no choice in any of it, other than whether to complete a trans journey in their bodies, like India has...but yeah, I do agree that definitions of the practising of feminism will vary and fit to an individual in that variation...that’s the same with many things though...

[Morgan.]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Idg why people are making articles “feminist does something .....” for these women who quite clearly aren’t feminists

I only used the word feminist because it's the word used in the attached video.

[Katty24]

Originally Posted by Greg!

Scum (the terf not India)

India is a very poor example of womanhood so she has a valid point.

[Livia]

Firstly, terf is a bull**** term I do not recognise.

Secondly, here we are again. A trans woman insisting she's the same as a born woman, and she's not. She grew up as a man, a white man... with all that privilege that follows. Now, when she's chosen to be a transwoman, she still thinks the world should listen, because that's what happened when she was a man. Am I the only one who's noticed that male to female trans people are the ones who crusade, who single themselves out... while female to male trans people just get on with their lives, they seem more able to cope with hostility because when they were women, they were used to it.

I do not recognise India as a woman who is the same as me. She is not. She is a transwoman. Equal to me, worth as much, just as entitled to be happy... but not the same.

[Katty24]

Originally Posted by Livia

Firstly, terf is a bull**** term I do not recognise.

Secondly, here we are again. A trans woman insisting she's the same as a born woman, and she's not. She grew up as a man, a white man... with all that privilege that follows. Now, when she's chosen to be a transwoman, she still thinks the world should listen, because that's what happened when she was a man. Am I the only one who's noticed that male to female trans people are the ones who crusade, who single themselves out... while female to male trans people just get on with their lives, they seem more able to cope with hostility because when they were women, they were used to it.

I do not recognise India as a woman who is the same as me. She is not. She is a transwoman. Equal to me, worth as much, just as entitled to be happy... but not the same.

Well said. I agree with all of that including her growing up as a white male and the high expectations of doing so. A good case of me, me, me ... in my opinion. She never will be the same as those born and raised as women and their different life experiences, however hard she tries.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Katty24

Well said. I agree with all of that including her growing up as a white male and the high expectations of doing so. A good case of me, me, me ... in my opinion. She never will be the same as those born and raised as women and their different life experiences, however hard she tries.

Hi Katty, nice to see a new face in Serious Debates. Welcome.

[Jase.]

Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull

[Jessica.]

The chromosome argument is stupid, people have been born with complete external and internal reproductive systems but with XY Chromosomes, some of these people have even given birth to healthy babies with the help of IVF. Anyone who takes the time to educate themselves will know that chromosomes mean almost nothing anymore when you see all of the variations and cases of people who don't fit with the assumed status quo.

India feels like she's a woman just as much as I do, she shouldn't be invalidated.

[TomC]

The woman genuinely disgusted me. She spoke horrendously to India and about the trans community.

[Katty24]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

The chromosome argument is stupid, people have been born with complete external and internal reproductive systems but with XY Chromosomes, some of these people have even given birth to healthy babies with the help of IVF. Anyone who takes the time to educate themselves will know that chromosomes mean almost nothing anymore when you see all of the variations and cases of people who don't fit with the assumed status quo.

India feels like she's a woman just as much as I do, she shouldn't be invalidated.

Pretty funny hearing people trying to dismiss the value and validity of chromosomes. We wouldn’t exist without them.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Livia

Firstly, terf is a bull**** term I do not recognise.

Secondly, here we are again. A trans woman insisting she's the same as a born woman, and she's not. She grew up as a man, a white man... with all that privilege that follows. Now, when she's chosen to be a transwoman, she still thinks the world should listen, because that's what happened when she was a man. Am I the only one who's noticed that male to female trans people are the ones who crusade, who single themselves out... while female to male trans people just get on with their lives, they seem more able to cope with hostility because when they were women, they were used to it.

I do not recognise India as a woman who is the same as me. She is not. She is a transwoman. Equal to me, worth as much, just as entitled to be happy... but not the same.

You are fair enough to argue that a transwoman (such as India) grew up as a "white man" (at least, from an outside perspective), and yes the experiences of womanhood are different. Arguing otherwise is just ignoring reality, really.

The difference though, and you're free to disagree, is that someone like India did not grow up in "full" white male privilege. She was forced to conceal her gender identity in an intolerant society, and around 40% of trans women have attempted suicide, with far more experiencing depression and other mental health issues due to gender dysphoria. Therefore, I would argue that trans women have pretty first-hand experience due to their gender expression, and the struggle of women & transpeople is certainly comparable.

Trans women should be seen as a woman for those reasons, alongside their self-identification, and enjoy full rights in society and under the law as women. The reason I find TERFs disgusting is that they seem to disregard transgender people's struggles and oppression, and they ultimately see trans women as just "men in dresses" or some kind of imposter.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Secondly, here we are again. A trans woman insisting she's the same as a born woman, and she's not.

Tbf, she hasn't done that at all.

[Scarlett.]

Most transwomen are quite aware they're not the same as born women, but it seems every time a debate arises its the first point, when most trans peoples reactions would be "well, duh?" I also find it interesting that the debates are always about transwomen, transmen generally never seem to be even considered in these debates (I'm glad they don't have to go through it tbh), most trans people just wanna live their lives in peace, but time and time again we have to put up with being used as a political tool.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

Ignorance.

The scientific consensus is that while biological sex is determined by genes, hormones, and genitals, one's psychological gender is entirely on the basis of how that individual self-identifies.

But go off, i guess

Did anyone go off?

[Northern Monkey]

It seems the feminists and the transexuals are in a full scale war atm.
2 suggestions would be..
Why not just keep public areas sex based to keep things simple?
Penis’ go in male changing areas and toilets and vaginas go in female areas.
So if you’ve had the op then you can go into the changing area of your new sex.

OR

Have proper changing areas and toilets with full floor to ceiling doors and let anybody use them.

Prisons are more complicated.There really needs to be some prisons with trans dedicated wings or you’re going to end up with problems.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

It seems the feminists and the transexuals are in a full scale war atm.
2 suggestions would be..
Why not just keep public areas sex based to keep things simple?
Penis’ go in male changing areas and toilets and vaginas go in female areas.
So if you’ve had the op then you can go into the changing area of your new sex.

OR

Have proper changing areas and toilets with full floor to ceiling doors and let anybody use them.

Prisons are more complicated.There really needs to be some prisons with trans dedicated wings or you’re going to end up with problems.

They have that in the jails here... they give them different colored armbands, and there is one for if they're homosexual or trans, etc... I'm not sure what the armbands actually look (have to ask hubby)... maybe like hospital bands? But they are at higher risk for assault in those areas... we segregate them here... people are put into lock-down if the Gen pop tank are not friendly towards them for whatever reason... they have to keep an eye on that constantly in case a fight breaks out, so they can respond quickly...

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...(..sorry I have to rush so this is just an initial thing to what you say, TS..]...

..there are differences in what you’re comparing though...feminism is a choice, we are not born feminists...extremism is a choice, we’re not born to be extremists...a trans person though..?...is born as a woman inside the body of a man, their body doesn’t match what they were born as..(...as with trans who are women born in men’s bodies..)...and they had no choice in any of it, other than whether to complete a trans journey in their bodies, like India has...but yeah, I do agree that definitions of the practicing of feminism will vary and fit to an individual in that variation...that’s the same with many things though...

I think TS may have borrowed from my comment where I mention the concept of self-identification (in general)... that's different than Transgenderism... it's one thing to say an apple is an apple... or that an apple looks like an apple, but feels like an orange... but completely different if an apple can change to different fruit at will (Fire orange, banana bonanza, peachy keen, fine lime)... to me, that completely trivializes Transgenderism (relatively speaking)... but the self-identification thing and Transgenderism are two different concepts...

A trans-qualifier, at least as accepted by psych/med, is for those who suffering from gender dysphoria... but self-identification goes beyond that and creates an even bigger umbrella... it means we can change at will, which theoretically can mean, as often as one would prefer... it makes defining things more ambiguous, and I think if we're heading that direction, then other things can start to lose their original definition... because after all, the only qualifier is that we self-identity or "feel" a certain way that day... is a bit different than saying, well this person is transgender... because they have gender dysphoria... as I wrote above, I really disagree with this concept because it trivializes the footwork that legitimate trans-folk have to go through to find peace with their own identity... if it were as simple as a switch, hey I'm not feeling a certain way today I'll change my mind, then the discussion would be null...

I don't think the concept of self-identification is the problem. I just don't think it should be law is all... a trans-person who is struggling with a real disconnect, that's much easier to accommodate... and easier for society to create social barriers that make sense for all folk...

So anyway, it was just an ironic comment... we're discussing how feminism is concretely in support of certain movements, has these political positions, is within these belief systems, this that and the other thing... is ironic considering that a great deal of folk who have that belief also support self-identification and a gender-spectrum... which sort of undermines the premise of defining things concretely to certain criterium...

Hope that makes sense, Ammi... if not, no worries ... it's just me discussing a side-topic and other mind-dumping (as usual) ...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

It seems the feminists and the transexuals are in a full scale war atm.
2 suggestions would be..
Why not just keep public areas sex based to keep things simple?
Penis’ go in male changing areas and toilets and vaginas go in female areas.
So if you’ve had the op then you can go into the changing area of your new sex.

OR

Have proper changing areas and toilets with full floor to ceiling doors and let anybody use them.

Prisons are more complicated.There really needs to be some prisons with trans dedicated wings or you’re going to end up with problems.

Yeah spot on NM, it's common sense

[LeatherTrumpet]

what actually is a feminist?

[Livia]

I believe a feminist to be someone who demands equality in the workplace, equality of opportunity and the belief that women should be free to live their life without having some git you don't know slap your arse. In a nutshell...

[Vicky.]

For daring to speak out on this issue, Posie has now been doxxed, photos of her children exposed online, and her address and such. Police are involved. But its par for the course when dealing with narcissistic males (not meaning India there, its the transactivists shes pissed off)