[Livia]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

You are fair enough to argue that a transwoman (such as India) grew up as a "white man" (at least, from an outside perspective), and yes the experiences of womanhood are different. Arguing otherwise is just ignoring reality, really.

The difference though, and you're free to disagree, is that someone like India did not grow up in "full" white male privilege. She was forced to conceal her gender identity in an intolerant society, and around 40% of trans women have attempted suicide, with far more experiencing depression and other mental health issues due to gender dysphoria. Therefore, I would argue that trans women have pretty first-hand experience due to their gender expression, and the struggle of women & transpeople is certainly comparable.

Trans women should be seen as a woman for those reasons, alongside their self-identification, and enjoy full rights in society and under the law as women. The reason I find TERFs disgusting is that they seem to disregard transgender people's struggles and oppression, and they ultimately see trans women as just "men in dresses" or some kind of imposter.

You don't know India's life when she was a successful white male, so you're not qualified to reach the conclusion that her experience is comparable to being a "real" woman. Nor can my perception be changed by the fact that some people who face transsexuality suffer depression. I sympathise, but I don't believe their depression will end by insisting everyone pretends they are exactly the same as those of us born as women.

You may have seen in my post that I have nothing at all against transsexual women. But they are just that, trans women. They are not the same as me. And like I said, although they are worth as much and are just as entitled to be happy and to full rights under the law as you have mentioned, they are not women in the sense that I am. I hope India has wonderful life. I wish her no ill will. But she is different from me.

Women have been oppressed for centuries. And just as we're getting some kind of equality, men are dictating to us what we should call ourselves, and that any man who identifies as a woman should be regarded as one.

I have never seen a female to male transsexual crusade on the telly, or anywhere else, insisting that they are "real men". And I believe that is because men are used to being heard and demanding things.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Tbf, she hasn't done that at all.

With respect, Marshy... she spent her whole time in the BB house saying "I'm a REAL woman!".

[Toy Soldier]

TBQFH I feel jealous of anyone who is as "privileged" as this lady, to actually feel anything at all about these issues which are realistically just paranoid ****ing nonsense with literally ZERO evidence base, because I sort of feel like she can't have many legitimate problems going on in their life whatsoever.

Well. She didn't until she did this. It sounds like she does now

[Elliot]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

TBQFH I feel jealous of anyone who is as "privileged" as this lady, to actually feel anything at all about these issues which are realistically just paranoid ****ing nonsense with literally ZERO evidence base, because I sort of feel like she can't have many legitimate problems going on in their life whatsoever.

Well. She didn't until she did this. It sounds like she does now

.

[Chero]

I can see the woman's point. I don't actually see trans people the same as women, either. To be fair, as a heterosexual female, it doesn't really matter to me if a woman is a lesbian, or if a guy wants to be a woman, since anyone not an unmarried heterosexual male is not something I'd be interested in as other than a friend. But the thing is, people who were raised as men, even if they thought themselves female, have been socialized with all the advantages males are given when they are socialized as males in our society. They will always have those advantages, even if they remove their penises. They still act like men in ways that really matter (outside of the bedroom). Just look at India as an example. India constantly interrupted other women, talked constantly with that condescending attitude virtually all men have (and women don't). I mean, you can change your sex organs, but you're still the same person inside.

So sorry to disagree with the masses on this one. I'm not that bothered, though, about trans people. I feel that they can be good or bad, depending on the person, just like everyone else. I just don't think they're quite the same as people who were born a woman. (It's like the difference between someone who is straight or gay. They may have the same gender, but there's not that much real overlap).

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

With respect, Marshy... she spent her whole time in the BB house saying "I'm a REAL woman!".

We're discussing this debate though in which, quite the opposite to her usual self, India was calm and reasonable in her responses.

I didn't watch most of that series so I can't comment.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Chero

Just look at India as an example. India constantly interrupted other women, talked constantly with that condescending attitude virtually all men have (and women don't).

Sexist and factually incorrect comment. People can be condescending, people of all variations. Genders and sexes, however, cannot.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

We're discussing this debate though in which, quite the opposite to her usual self, India was calm and reasonable in her responses.

I didn't watch most of that series so I can't comment.

Well, as this isn't a court and I can take previous behaviour into account to inform my judgement, she DID spend the whole time wailing that she's a REAL woman and got very upset when a much younger man didn't want to kiss her... assuming it was because she's transsexual when in actuality it may well have been because she was too old for him. Even India herself said toward the end of her stint that she had played it all wrong. And she wasn't calm and reasonable, she interrupted constantly.

And yes, she was quite calm and reasonable. But then when she was a man she had a career in broadcast television.

One thing I've noticed... it's quite telling that the strongest posts, with the worst slurs against the "feminist", are from men.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Chero

I can see the woman's point. I don't actually see trans people the same as women, either. To be fair, as a heterosexual female, it doesn't really matter to me if a woman is a lesbian, or if a guy wants to be a woman, since anyone not an unmarried heterosexual male is not something I'd be interested in as other than a friend. But the thing is, people who were raised as men, even if they thought themselves female, have been socialized with all the advantages males are given when they are socialized as males in our society. They will always have those advantages, even if they remove their penises. They still act like men in ways that really matter (outside of the bedroom). Just look at India as an example. India constantly interrupted other women, talked constantly with that condescending attitude virtually all men have (and women don't). I mean, you can change your sex organs, but you're still the same person inside.

So sorry to disagree with the masses on this one. I'm not that bothered, though, about trans people. I feel that they can be good or bad, depending on the person, just like everyone else. I just don't think they're quite the same as people who were born a woman. (It's like the difference between someone who is straight or gay. They may have the same gender, but there's not that much real overlap).

Excellent points, Chero. Great post.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

For daring to speak out on this issue, Posie has now been doxxed, photos of her children exposed online, and her address and such. Police are involved. But its par for the course when dealing with narcissistic males (not meaning India there, its the transactivists shes pissed off)

Haven't seen much outrage about this on this thread... in fact a couple of the posts seem to intimate that some people are okay with someone (almost exclusively women) who has an opinion that differs, your WHOLE family can be put at risk. Nice.

I hope the police find them... and they could if they really wanted... and hit them with the full force of the law. And all penises to go to male prisons.

[bitontheslide]

The problem with that video was that it had 2 activists from polar extremes of the discussion. Neither are reflective of the norm and as such, anything they say should be treated with a large pinch of salt in relation to the topic.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

The problem with that video was that it had 2 activists from polar extremes of the discussion. Neither are reflective of the norm and as such, anything they say should be treated with a large pinch of salt in relation to the topic.

Ahhhh… the voice of reason.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Livia

You don't know India's life when she was a successful white male, so you're not qualified to reach the conclusion that her experience is comparable to being a "real" woman. Nor can my perception be changed by the fact that some people who face transsexuality suffer depression. I sympathise, but I don't believe their depression will end by insisting everyone pretends they are exactly the same as those of us born as women.

You may have seen in my post that I have nothing at all against transsexual women. But they are just that, trans women. They are not the same as me. And like I said, although they are worth as much and are just as entitled to be happy and to full rights under the law as you have mentioned, they are not women in the sense that I am. I hope India has wonderful life. I wish her no ill will. But she is different from me.

Women have been oppressed for centuries. And just as we're getting some kind of equality, men are dictating to us what we should call ourselves, and that any man who identifies as a woman should be regarded as one.

I have never seen a female to male transsexual crusade on the telly, or anywhere else, insisting that they are "real men". And I believe that is because men are used to being heard and demanding things.

Your logic’s wasted on some 17-year-old kid who skips work because “it’s not his fault the job’s boring.” I hear you still.

[Greg!]

Of course technically trans women aren't the same as other women, but I don't get why some people continually go on about it. "YOU ARE DIFFERENT FROM ME AND YOU WERE NOT BORN A WOMAN!!!!" Like yeah that's kind of what being trans means. Just all seems a bit pointless and nasty really

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Well, as this isn't a court and I can take previous behaviour into account to inform my judgement

Yes, you can, but again, the comment was directed at this debate where she did no such thing.

Originally Posted by Livia

Even India herself said toward the end of her stint that she had played it all wrong. And she wasn't calm and reasonable, she interrupted constantly.

Key word being "played", it would be hard to tell how much was typical BB housemate theatrics to get attention and how much was genuine.

Secondly, I didn't say she was calm and reasonable in the house, hence why I stated I didn't watch all of her time in the BB house.

Originally Posted by Livia

And yes, she was quite calm and reasonable. But then when she was a man she had a career in broadcast television.

I don't think in this instance it's got anything to do with it. Man or woman in broadcast television would be media trained well enough to hold a civil televised debate.

[Chero]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Sexist and factually incorrect comment. People can be condescending, people of all variations. Genders and sexes, however, cannot.

I don't think it is sexist. I think you're living in la la land, if you don't think that the vast majority of women in the world are brought up that men are better, smarter, etc. Women are expected to spend their lives being what men want them to be. That's an overwhelming message coming through right now, and it was even worse when I was growing up. You can't spend the formative years of your life getting these messages, and be the same as someone who didn't. Nothing sexist about saying so. Turn on the TV. How much TV allotment is for men playing sports? How much are those men paid? How much for women? How much are they paid? Am I making sense yet? When women have equal opportunities and are treated equally by the media, that would bea societal start. But even if children are brought up by parents who try to raise their child in a nonsexist way, school and the media will socialize them by their gender.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Chero

I don't think it is sexist. I think you're living in la la land, if you don't think that the vast majority of women in the world are brought up that men are better, smarter, etc. Women are expected to spend their lives being what men want them to be. That's an overwhelming message coming through right now, and it was even worse when I was growing up. You can't spend the formative years of your life getting these messages, and be the same as someone who didn't. Nothing sexist about saying so. Turn on the TV. How much TV allotment is for men playing sports? How much are those men paid? How much for women? How much are they paid? Am I making sense yet? When women have equal opportunities and are treated equally by the media, that would bea societal start. But even if children are brought up by parents who try to raise their child in a nonsexist way, school and the media will socialize them by their gender.

That's not what you said.

You said men are condescending and women are not. That's incorrect and a sexist statement.

You want to fight sexism, maybe start with your own attitudes.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Greg!

Of course technically trans women aren't the same as other women, but I don't get why some people continually go on about it. "YOU ARE DIFFERENT FROM ME AND YOU WERE NOT BORN A WOMAN!!!!" Like yeah that's kind of what being trans means. Just all seems a bit pointless and nasty really

I've never heard any woman say that except in response to a trans woman saying "I am a real woman! Just like you!"

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Redway

Your logic’s wasted on some 17-year-old kid who skips work because “it’s not his fault the job’s boring.” I hear you still.

Hey Red...nice to see you x

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

I've never heard any woman say that except in response to a trans woman saying "I am a real woman! Just like you!"

How many circumstances in life result in trans women screaming this in the face of cis women?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

How many circumstances in life result in trans women screaming this in the face of cis women?

Firstly, I don't recognise the term 'cis', imposed upon me by people with an agenda.

Every time there's someone on TV campaigning hard for transsexual rights, it's going to be a trans female insisting she's a woman.

Never, ever, heard a female to male do it. Maybe that's why transwoman have SO much support from men?

The fact that the "feminist" in the OP has had death threats and pictures of her children posted online, as happens to a lot of women who stand up against the idea that trans woman and born woman are exactly the same, demonstrates the kind of response born women get when they disagree. Where is the outrage over that? Maybe their not screaming in our faces, but their tactics are ****ing hysterical and outrageous.*

* I have to say I don't find all transwoman to be this way. Just the militants.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Firstly, I don't recognise the term 'cis', imposed upon me by people with an agenda.

Every time there's someone on TV campaigning hard for transsexual rights, it's going to be a trans female insisting she's a woman.

Never, ever, heard a female to male do it. Maybe that's why transwoman have SO much support from men?

The fact that the "feminist" in the OP has had death threats and pictures of her children posted online, as happens to a lot of women who stand up against the idea that trans woman and born woman are exactly the same, demonstrates the kind of response born women get when they disagree. Where is the outrage over that? Maybe their not screaming in our faces, but their tactics are ****ing hysterical and outrageous.*

* I have to say I don't find all transwoman to be this way. Just the militants.

Well, cis is a dictionary defined word I used in the correct context.

I don't condone anything that has happened to the "feminist" in the OP. But I daresay the strong response she has received isn't something that women will get in general for having a different opinion, but because she gives that opinion alongside all of her offensive views in her higher profile and militant ways. Just as those trans people who put themselves forward as the campaigners for what they believe in are the ones that get the most abuse too.

Never heard a female to male say it, because they don't need to. Maybe they're more accepted.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Yikes.





My original point was that a simple difference of a opinion doesn't itself warrant nor invite a strong backlash. As though ALL women get this treatment ALL the time.

No, on both sides of the argument, the only people getting the strong backlash are the people putting themselves forward like India and the "feminist" in the OP as the spokespeople, or the people who choose to air their strong views on public platforms and in campaigns. Because that's what always happens in those arenas, the extreme from both sides begin attacking.

That should read the WOMEN who chose to air their strong views. As its only women. The term of abuse, TERF, often accompanied by 'die in a fire' and such...there is no equivalent for men. And the difference you see when men speak out on social media is striking, seriously. This is misogyny. Pure and simple.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

That should read the WOMEN who chose to air their strong views. As its only women. The term of abuse, TERF, often accompanied by 'die in a fire' and such...there is no equivalent for men. And the difference you see when men speak out on social media is striking, seriously. This is misogyny. Pure and simple.

Well, I used people because it isn't just one side of the debate receiving abuse. The trans people receive the abuse for their views and campaigning too.

It's not one sided.

I don't think there are many men who speak out about the rights of women/transwomen for me to make any comparison as to their treatment.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Well, I used people because it isn't just one side of the debate receiving abuse. The trans people receive the abuse for their views and campaigning too.

It's not one sided.

It really is

Its one side of the debate recieving abuse. Check out the replies under any transactivists twitter post on this topic, for example. Then contrast it with a feminists. And then contrast that with a man saying the same thing as the feminist. Seriously, everyone who thinks this is two way should do this...