[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

or is he saying I am only 15 to travel for free

if there were more discipline and respect maybe the young mainly men who have ended up dead with a knife in their guts might still be alive, a small shove to put your in your place v a knife in the gut....you choose

So adults demonstrating that violence is a way to solve problems makes it LESS likely that kids / teens will use violence to solve their problems?

It doesn't make sense. It just doesn't, and it never will, no matter how much people want it to, there is simply zero evidence base behind the idea that corporal punishment teaches respect, and there is an ample evidence base behind the statistically verified fact that violence (whether its "well meaning" or apparently "justified" or not) begets violence. I get that people don't like that and want something else to be true, but it just isn't. People have been examining this issue for a very long time.

This kid being physically grabbed / pushed by this bus driver will have made him much more likely to grab / push other people in future. Especially if people are congratulating the driver and saying that he did the right thing. It's positive reinforcement of violence and its pretty much just that simple.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

So adults demonstrating that violence is a way to solve problems makes it LESS likely that kids / teens will use violence to solve their problems?

It doesn't make sense. It just doesn't, and it never will, no matter how much people want it to, there is simply zero evidence base behind the idea that corporal punishment teaches respect, and there is an ample evidence base behind the statistically verified fact that violence (whether its "well meaning" or apparently "justified" or not) begets violence. I get that people don't like that and want something else to be true, but it just isn't. People have been examining this issue for a very long time.

This kid being physically grabbed / pushed by this bus driver will have made him much more likely to grab / push other people in future. Especially if people are congratulating the driver and saying that he did the right thing. It's positive reinforcement of violence and its pretty much just that simple.

so why is violence at school at record levels?

"Nearly half of school support staff across England experience violence at work, with tens of thousands subject to attacks in the classroom on a weekly basis, new figures show"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8527906.html

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It was a pretty easy conclusion to jump to considering I was the only one speaking to Livia on the opposite side, who were you talking about then because there literally was no one else involved?

It was in answer to Livia wishing she never said anything, as we all do on here at times, just not worth the bloody hassle, this being a prime example.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

so why is violence at school at record levels?

"Nearly half of school support staff across England experience violence at work, with tens of thousands subject to attacks in the classroom on a weekly basis, new figures show"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8527906.html

A vast array of complex social and economic changes, the rise of social media (though I will freely admit this is mainly just my opinion), the breakdown of communities and extended families promoted by neoliberal capitalism and consumerism... to name a few suggestions.

Why on earth would you simply assume that it's "because they don't get hit enough"? It makes no sense at all especially given that - in general - kids who come from solid, respectful homes who do NOT physically punish or harm each other, are the LEAST likely to be attacking or harming other pupils or staff in schools.

Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. That's the absolute basics, LT. You can't say "Kids used to get hit more. Staff used to get assaulted less. Therefore, hitting kids will reduce assaults on staff." It's (literally, demonstrably) not logical.

Here's another fact for you; Bee populations have been declining over the last few decades. And school assaults have been increasing . We must consider the bees!! School assaults are increasing because of the lack of bees! Look at the numbers. Less bees since 1995. More assaults since 1995. Undeniable facts.

It's just the same BS logic as the assault on television / gaming. "Kids watch more telly and play more games than 10 years ago and X/Y/Z is a bigger problem than 10 years ago. Therefore, TV / gaming is responsible for X/Y/Z.

Unproven, undemonstrated, unscientific supposition and nonsense opinion.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

It was in answer to Livia wishing she never said anything, as we all do on here at times, just not worth the bloody hassle, this being a prime example.

So people aren't allowed to disagree in the Serious Debates section?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

A vast array of complex social and economic changes, the rise of social media (though I will freely admit this is mainly just my opinion), the breakdown of communities and extended families promoted by neoliberal capitalism and consumerism... to name a few suggestions.

Why on earth would you simply assume that it's "because they don't get hit enough"? It makes no sense at all especially given that - in general - kids who come from solid, respectful homes who do NOT physically punish or harm each other, are the LEAST likely to be attacking or harming other pupils or staff in schools.

Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. That's the absolute basics, LT. You can't say "Kids used to get hit more. Staff used to get assaulted less. Therefore, hitting kids will reduce assaults on staff." It's (literally, demonstrably) not logical.

Here's another fact for you; Bee populations have been declining over the last few decades. And school assaults have been increasing . We must consider the bees!! School assaults are increasing because of the lack of bees! Look at the numbers. Less bees since 1995. More assaults since 1995. Undeniable facts.

It's just the same BS logic as the assault on television / gaming. "Kids watch more telly and play more games than 10 years ago and X/Y/Z is a bigger problem than 10 years ago. Therefore, TV / gaming is responsible for X/Y/Z.

Unproven, undemonstrated, unscientific supposition and nonsense opinion.

The students no longer Beehave

[Jigs]

Kid was almost certainly in the wrong here, despite what we are shown

Young people nowadays know to rein it in when a camera is on them. The kid was fully aware the camera was out and knew to change his stance on the situation to save face when this video was inevitably put on social media. The driver wouldn't have reacted like that for nothing and knowing how kids are nowadays I can safely assume the kid was probably being a lil tosser

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The students no longer Beehave

The teachers to catch them out in a sting operation or it won't be long until they're swarmed.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Jigs

Kid was almost certainly in the wrong here, despite what we are shown

Young people nowadays know to rein it in when a camera is on them. The kid was fully aware the camera was out and knew to change his stance on the situation to save face when this video was inevitably put on social media. The driver wouldn't have reacted like that for nothing and knowing how kids are nowadays I can safely assume the kid was probably being a lil tosser

He probably is and I haven't seen anyone try to argue that this was some poor innocent little soul. It doesn't change the fact that a grown man threatening a teenager with "punching their face in" is unacceptable and a stupid / thuggish thing to do. It's also not big or clever... in fact, in my opinion, it makes the guy look pretty pathetic.

In my experience, when kids / teens are acting like this, usually trying to show off, all it takes is a certain look / laughing it off to make them feel suddenly self conscious and a bit daft. They WANT an angry reaction, that's the whole point .

[parmnion]

bus drivers are just failed bouncers, they all have a disgusting attitude towards passengers..

a passenger should have got up and lamped the bully.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by parmnion

bus drivers are just failed bouncers, they all have a disgusting attitude towards passengers..

a passenger should have got up and lamped the bully.

They're 50/50 around here. I have to get the late bus every Saturday because I'm always working but eldest has stage school on a Sat so they need the car... Some of the drivers are great / friendly / occasionally let me on for free. It's the last bus of the day and I get off at the last stop... Usually the only person on it. However, some of them seem to be pissed off that they have a passenger at all . I suspect maybe they just skip the last leg of the journey and head straight back to depot otherwise and I've ruined their plans. Well sorry bud, it's no excuse for being rude . Especially when as far as I can tell I'm one of the only people in the area actually paying a cash bus fare, with everyone else being on their over-60's bus pass .

[Ramsay]

I'm sure there's more to it than what we're shown but i can't imagine there was any reason to call him a fat boy and put his hands on the kid

[hijaxers]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Monkey see monkey do.

Yes well he's obv from a family of monkey brain's - no offence to monkeys.

[hijaxers]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I was smacked as a child and im ok

so

Same

[Toy Soldier]

To play devil's advocate on the thread, bus drivers do take a bit of abuse and I'd guess this driver had been harassed by a few passengers already and this kid just happened to be the straw that broke the camel's back. Its still not OK though. Smack of him deciding to take out his frustration on a kid who is clearly much smaller than him... I doubt he'd have been out of his cab so quickly if it was some angry big bloke in his 40's mouthing off. Not a good look, really.

It would be like me having a bad day with the rougher customers and then snapping at Wee Betty for taking too long to remember the numbers she wants for her 49's.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I was smacked as a child and im ok

so

Are you though LT? And is just "OK" what we should be striving for in life .

[Tom4784]

Both are in the wrong but the driver more so for forgetting he is a grown ass man and acting like a child. Embarrassing behaviour from him, he shouldn't work in public facing roles if he can only exacerbate situations and get physical rather than diffuse situations.

He would have been in the right if he only remembered that he was the adult in this situation.

[Tom4784]

As TS said, he wouldn't have tried that with another man who would have likely fought back if he tried to shove them about. Just a weak bully with an immature mind.

[Withano]

Well, the boy called him a prick so obviously the bus driver is allowed to threaten him and aggressively push him.

Christ.

Why are we debating this, he should be charged with assault... he should also grow a pair, a child calling you a name shouldnt make you react this way.

[RileyH]

Good on the bus driver

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

So adults demonstrating that violence is a way to solve problems makes it LESS likely that kids / teens will use violence to solve their problems?

It doesn't make sense. It just doesn't, and it never will, no matter how much people want it to, there is simply zero evidence base behind the idea that corporal punishment teaches respect, and there is an ample evidence base behind the statistically verified fact that violence (whether its "well meaning" or apparently "justified" or not) begets violence. I get that people don't like that and want something else to be true, but it just isn't. People have been examining this issue for a very long time.

This kid being physically grabbed / pushed by this bus driver will have made him much more likely to grab / push other people in future. Especially if people are congratulating the driver and saying that he did the right thing. It's positive reinforcement of violence and its pretty much just that simple.

A push is hardly demonstrating violence, if someone tried to enter your home illegally or in a threatening way you would be quite within your rights to push them out, the bus driver is responsible for the bus and his passengers, if he felt this passenger was going to be a threat or cause trouble he had every right to push him off, we don't know the full story here so its difficult to judge why the bus driver reacted but I doubt it was just for being called a prick

If this happened at a hospital reception desk no one would bat an eyelid at the youth being man handled out by security, the guy is on his own, its not like he set about him with a baseball bat, he pushed him off the bus, the only way he let himself down was calling the kid fat, maybe he has done the kid a favour and he will act reasonably in future

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

A push is hardly demonstrating violence, if someone tried to enter your home illegally or in a threatening way you would be quite within your rights to push them out, the bus driver is responsible for the bus and his passengers, if he felt this passenger was going to be a threat or cause trouble he had every right to push him off, we don't know the full story here so its difficult to judge why the bus driver reacted but I doubt it was just for being called a prick

If this happened at a hospital reception desk no one would bat an eyelid at the youth being man handled out by security, the guy is on his own, its not like he set about him with a baseball bat, he pushed him off the bus, the only way he let himself down was calling the kid fat, maybe he has done the kid a favour and he will act reasonably in future

You are incorrect Cherie, sorry, a bus (like a shop) is not private property. If I physically grabbed or pushed a customer for calling me a name I would be at the very least suspended - would be at risk of being fired - and could be charged with assault. The same applies here.

[Toy Soldier]

The ONLY time it's considered acceptable to use physical force is in physical self defence. This is a fact when it comes to legality, and also my strong opinion when it comes to morality. The latter is up for debate but the former I'm afraid is just not; putting your hands on someone for calling you names is assault. It's not a grey area. Whether or not someone is CHARGED with assault for it would depend on if injury was caused, provocation would be taken into account, and so would past conduct. But it's still assault. The bus driver would most likely only be warned not to do it in this case - if he's previously clean. If he makes a habit of it hell end up being charged. Because it isn't legal. .

[LeatherTrumpet]

In my day the conductor (yes an actual conductor) would have booted the brat off and given him a thud around the lug (and more if the conductor had been a man)

[Babayaro.]

what a waste of 10 seconds...


Obviously the whole interaction wasn't recorded so no one can comment on it, really.