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Old 06-12-2018, 12:38 AM #26
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As a democratic country, we should do what the majority wants. The majority think leaving is stupid so we should remain.
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Old 06-12-2018, 12:44 AM #27
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If there IS a second referendum I don't believe we would any longer be able to call ourselves a democracy. Furthermore... when are we going to here someone mention the appallingly pedantic, rude and patronising way that the EU had dealt with the UK over Brexit.
Theres nothing undemocratic about following the will of the majority of the people... Considerably more undemocratic to ignore what the people of today want because of a result that was made at the end of a ****show last year.
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Old 06-12-2018, 01:11 AM #28
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I wouldn't "bet" on it. The Brexit situation seems like a never-ending rollercoaster. Sort of like a lot of issues here... I don't think anyone wants full responsibility for what happens, and the EU is going to keep pushing back for as long as they can see to see if they wear down May... probably. They were never going to let the UK leave on their own terms I guess.
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:30 AM #29
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Originally Posted by Withano View Post
As a democratic country, we should do what the majority wants. The majority think leaving is stupid so we should remain.
nope i expect the UK to leave the EU on 29th March 2019 which is the brexit date in the first place
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:19 AM #30
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Originally Posted by Withano View Post
Theres nothing undemocratic about following the will of the majority of the people... Considerably more undemocratic to ignore what the people of today want because of a result that was made at the end of a ****show last year.
Quite a different stance than when we voted to leave.

All I've heard since is "the will of the people" from the set that lost the last referendum.
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:21 AM #31
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Or cause Vote Leave broke electoral law, which makes an actual real mockery of democracy
Tell me how they broke electoral law. I'd be very interested to hear your take on that. And I'd like to hear whether the "remain" camp played 100% fair and told only the truth.
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:23 AM #32
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But that’s fine apparently cos 17m people!!!
Again, let's have your take on the breach of electoral law you're all suddenly citing.

The bottom line is that neither side played fair in the referendum campaign. Neither side knew what the hell would happen. But the bottom line is that one side won the referendum and one side lost.
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:52 AM #33
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I think enough has materially changed from the sound bites and lies and general misinformation surrounding the initial referendum, to warrant a new vote. However, I dont think it should be a rerun. I think it should be remain, or exit with the agreed terms. As much as everyone finds fault with May's deal, there is zero chance of getting anything different
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Old 06-12-2018, 12:30 PM #34
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I think enough has materially changed from the sound bites and lies and general misinformation surrounding the initial referendum, to warrant a new vote. However, I dont think it should be a rerun. I think it should be remain, or exit with the agreed terms. As much as everyone finds fault with May's deal, there is zero chance of getting anything different
There is zero chance of getting another deal which is why a general election, or at least a change of PM is getting more likely every day. May has been calling in her MPs one at a some to garner support and a large majority of them are refusing to see her. The consensus seems to be that the Chequers deal is dead in the water and the best deal is one being recommended by the European Research Group, the Super Canada deal, or Canada+++. The ERG has tried to cite it as a better alternative for months but Mrs May seems determined. Even though the Institute for Economic Affairs also published a report explaining in economic terms how such an agreement would work in practice.

It's a strange time in Westminster. Makes me glad to think I don't work in politics any more.
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Old 06-12-2018, 01:26 PM #35
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Quite a different stance than when we voted to leave.

All I've heard since is "the will of the people" from the set that lost the last referendum.
Well, unless you’ve changed your stance since the referendum, you shouldn’t have an issue.

So have you changed your stance and wish to now ignore the majority of the people? Your arguments on the thread make it seem as if you have. Which is undemocratic obvs.
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Old 06-12-2018, 03:12 PM #36
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last time i checked how people's opinion stand now on a brexit (leave or remain) there was a majority to remain

i cannot disagree with them, this whole brexit thing has gone so messy


i do think remain is better for the average working class british people, based on everything i read about the brexit deal or the no deal brexit (which is even worse for the british people than May her deal)
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Old 06-12-2018, 03:48 PM #37
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There is zero chance of getting another deal which is why a general election, or at least a change of PM is getting more likely every day. May has been calling in her MPs one at a some to garner support and a large majority of them are refusing to see her. The consensus seems to be that the Chequers deal is dead in the water and the best deal is one being recommended by the European Research Group, the Super Canada deal, or Canada+++. The ERG has tried to cite it as a better alternative for months but Mrs May seems determined. Even though the Institute for Economic Affairs also published a report explaining in economic terms how such an agreement would work in practice.

It's a strange time in Westminster. Makes me glad to think I don't work in politics any more.
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Old 06-12-2018, 03:54 PM #38
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The last referendum happened because people wanted it, if enough people call for it again then it's hypocritical to be opposed to it in the name of democracy just because you fear a different result.

I personally think that people have made their beds and now they must lie in it and hopefully learn that they should be informed when voting in the future but I can't be opposed to another referendum if that's what the majority want just like I couldn't be opposed to the first one but the swing voters and voters who voted in ignorance won't learn from it if it happens, sadly.
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:47 PM #39
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Well, unless you’ve changed your stance since the referendum, you shouldn’t have an issue.

So have you changed your stance and wish to now ignore the majority of the people? Your arguments on the thread make it seem as if you have. Which is undemocratic obvs.
What?

We've already had a referendum and a result. You would like another vote because the result wasn't what you wanted. That's not democracy. Maybe if people had got off their lazy arses and voted the first time round you'd have got your result. I don't believe in running it again for people who didn't vote the first time.

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Old 07-12-2018, 02:22 PM #40
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What?

We've already had a referendum and a result. You would like another vote because the result wasn't what you wanted. That's not democracy. Maybe if people had got off their lazy arses and voted the first time round you'd have got your result. I don't believe in running it again for people who didn't vote the first time.
But isn't that what you're doing now? If enough of a majority call out for another vote then surely the democratic solution would be to listen like the government eventually did the first time. I'm with you that the brexit voters made their bed but in the case that most people want another vote, it's hypocritical to oppose it if you didn't oppose people calling for the vote in the first place. You're basically saying you don't want a do-over because you don't want people who didn't vote before to change the result to something you don't want.

I think this whole post is just ****ing wrong really. I should have highlighted all of it on second thought.

Describing people who didn't vote as lazy is an ignorant statement, I'd say it's lazier just to vote one way or another without being informed on each side's argument but that's what people do in their droves.

At the end of the day, Livia. You can't preach in the name of democracy in one sentence and then say you don't want another vote because of people who didn't vote the first time, what about their right to democracy?

It's all or nothing Livia, you can't pick or choose what elements of democracy you like or what benefits you. I don't want another vote either but if the people demand it then it's the government's job to listen.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:35 PM #41
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In normal circumstances I wouldn't be in favour of holding another referendum, but the details of our planned exit are so different from what was put forward at the time of the referendum that I think its madness not to have another vote now. The people were lied to .... thats NOT democracy.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:50 PM #42
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The argument that it "isn't democracy" if there's a second vote is just plain incorrect to be honest. All that's required for it to "be democracy" is that the will of the majority is adhered to... if the will of the majority is now to halt brexit, and a vote shows that, and that's what happens... that is obviously democracy. Of course there are plenty of criticisms that can be aimed at the idea of a second vote but the statement that it "isn't democracy" is just not true.

Arguably, if people were immediately calling for repeated votes after every result it would be fair to call that a "broken" democracy, or an attempt to manipulate democracy, though it is still technically democracy (as there would still be a majority vote that would have to be won). That would be a major problem.

Holding a second vote 18 months+ after the original vote in a massively changed political climate and with an absolute TONNE of additional information on the table? That not only seems like valid democracy, it seems sensible, and refusing to double check that the course being taken is indeed the current will of the majority of the people actually seems quite reckless. Anyone who would happily watch brexit proceed "because they personally want it and it was voted for in 2017", despite knowing that they may well now be in the minority, I honestly don't believe really gives much of a **** about "democracy" at all. It feels disingenuous. "This is an affront to democracy " = "This isn't what I want and I'm scared that the majority of people don't want what I want any more so I won't get it".

The referendum should never have been binding in the first place. They can be used to poll public opinion and that's what should have happened in the first place... a vote to see if there was a desire to leave the EU, followed by a lengthy in-depth study into whether it was economically viable (or even possible) to actually do so. The whole issue has been handled so recklessly that it would be hilarious, if it wasn't bloody scary.

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Old 07-12-2018, 02:58 PM #43
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The argument that it "isn't democracy" if there's a second vote is just plain incorrect to be honest. All that's required for it to "be democracy" is that the will of the majority is adhered to... if the will of the majority is now to halt brexit, and a vote shows that, and that's what happens... that is obviously democracy. Of course there are plenty of criticisms that can be aimed at the idea of a second vote but the statement that it "isn't democracy" is just not true.

Arguably, if people were immediately calling for repeated votes after every result it would be fair to call that a "broken" democracy, or an attempt to manipulate democracy, though it is still technically democracy (as there would still be a majority vote that would have to be won). That would be a major problem.

Holding a second vote 18 months+ after the original vote in a massively changed political climate and with an absolute TONNE of additional information on the table? That not only seems like valid democracy, it seems sensible, and refusing to double check that the course being taken is indeed the current will of the majority of the people actually seems quite reckless. Anyone who would happily watch brexit proceed "because they personally want it and it was voted for in 2017", despite knowing that they may well now be in the minority, I honestly don't believe really gives much of a **** about "democracy" at all. It feels disingenuous. "This is an affront to democracy " = "This isn't what I want and I'm scared that the majority of people don't want what I want any more so I won't get it".

The referendum should never have been binding in the first place. They can be used to poll public opinion and that's what should have happened in the first place... a vote to see if there was a desire to leave the EU, followed by a lengthy in-depth study into whether it was economically viable (or even possible) to actually do so. The whole issue has been handled so recklessly that it would be hilarious, if it wasn't bloody scary.
As it happens, referendums are not legally binding, they are advisory only. Legally, the responsibility rests with MP's and always has.
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Old 07-12-2018, 04:43 PM #44
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last time i checked how people's opinion stand now on a brexit (leave or remain) there was a majority to remain

i cannot disagree with them, this whole brexit thing has gone so messy


i do think remain is better for the average working class british people, based on everything i read about the brexit deal or the no deal brexit (which is even worse for the british people than May her deal)
I will vote out again and i feel even more strongly now.
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Old 07-12-2018, 04:59 PM #45
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I will vote out again and i feel even more strongly now.
yes liberate us europe from the UK's grasp


brexit is our independence from the UK, and a torture for the british people
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:18 PM #46
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What?

We've already had a referendum and a result. You would like another vote because the result wasn't what you wanted. That's not democracy. Maybe if people had got off their lazy arses and voted the first time round you'd have got your result. I don't believe in running it again for people who didn't vote the first time.
Yeh I don’t see your point either. If it was democratic to leave the EU when more than 50% wanted to leave last year, then it is just as democratic, if not, more democratic to stay in the EU if over 50% want to stay in the EU today.

If we voted remain a second time we should respect that until a mood seems to change again. It’s nothing to do with being lazy the first time, well maybe a little, but more to do with a million people or so realising they were wrong the first time round.
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:30 PM #47
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full brexit more sounds like a ''full english breakfast'' tbh lol
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:36 PM #48
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As it happens, referendums are not legally binding, they are advisory only. Legally, the responsibility rests with MP's and always has.
Well yes, but if they're announced as a "public decision" then I guess there's an expectation that it will be acted on. However, there was nothing stopping them from calling a spade a spade in the first place and saying that the referendum was to gauge public opinion on EU membership... with it being clear that a leave result would lead to exploring the options for leaving.

Even with it being as it was, it's ridiculous how rushed it all has been. These huge political shifts take time, not 18 months! They shouldn't even have been THINKING about pulling the trigger until 3 to 5 years after the vote.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:43 PM #49
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I will vote out again and i feel even more strongly now.
It'll come down to the swing voters like it did before rather than the die hards on either side and I doubt this time, given how much (and how fast) the Brexit promises fell apart in practice, the swing vote will vote against it.
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:59 PM #50
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End of January beginning of February will be the big public vote

Cant wait to stay in
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