[Vienna]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i think it's ridiculous that women are again having to fight against discrimination, and what I find most disturbing is that so many are happy with that discrimination just because it acts as an advantage to another discriminated group.

Most factual and relevant post on this thread. Very concerning that, for some, discrimination against women is less important and that women make ideal scapegoats.

[Livia]

Are there any female to male athletes weeping that they can't compete with men? Probably not... Because what would be the point? They'd never even get picked.

I see this as just another way of men oppressing women. Trans athletes should be able to compete... maybe with each other? But there should be X chromosomes in every female competitive athlete.

Write this without seeing BOTS and Vienna's posts. Agree with both.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i think it's ridiculous that women are again having to fight against discrimination, and what I find most disturbing is that so many are happy with that discrimination just because it acts as an advantage to another discriminated group.

Would you not agree though that it's a problem that seems impossible to solve without some sort of discrimination occurring? Again I'm not advocating for it, just saying that this is clearly a hugely complex issue that people need to be exploring in depth, rather than jumping off one side of the pier or the other.

"Just let 'em compete!"

or

"No that's stupid. Tough luck for them! I'll hear no more about it!"

...neither are the realistic or sensible conclusions, here.

[Tom4784]

India spoke a lot of sense, even taking hormones out of the equation, MtF athletes will have advantages over female athletes. It's just a fact and I don't think it's transphobic at all to point that out.

[Livia]

Me agreeing with Dezzy....!

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

India spoke a lot of sense, even taking hormones out of the equation, MtF athletes will have advantages over female athletes. It's just a fact and I don't think it's transphobic at all to point that out.

Right but I see a lot of people agreeing about the problem, with very little willingness to talk about any potential solution to that problem. Which is odd and why I often come away from these topics feeling like it's just a flood of dogma.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Right but I see a lot of people agreeing about the problem, with very little willingness to talk about any potential solution to that problem. Which is odd and why I often come away from these topics feeling like it's just a flood of dogma.

The solution is that no one should be able to compete in women's competitions unless they have the x chromosome.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

The solution is that no one should be able to compete in women's competitions unless they have the x chromosome.

That is, at best, a partial solution.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Genuine question on that one though;

Would it be fair to put a female to male transexual in the boxing ring with a female opponent?

Do we just accept that there needs to be a "trans category" in sports? Or do we simply say that it's not appropriate for trans people to engage in professional sport at all? Isn't that a massive discrimination?

These are honest questions though; it's a hugely complex issue and I really don't know the answer. Despite my trolling above I've always been clear that I don't think it's particularly fair to have Male to Female transpeople in female branches of sport, because yes, there are clear physical advantages.

I don't see why this couldn't be an option, it's the fairest thing for everyone

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Right but I see a lot of people agreeing about the problem, with very little willingness to talk about any potential solution to that problem. Which is odd and why I often come away from these topics feeling like it's just a flood of dogma.

A transgender section, with MtF and FtM categories, yes there is the issue that it might be a small category, but so be it?

I don't know what the solution is to team sports but we have to start somewhere

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That is, at best, a partial solution.

What is it about women-only events you don't understand, TS?

If women allow this to happen we might as well go back to the 1950s and all you boys can direct our lives again... this time forever.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I don't see why this couldn't be an option, it's the fairest thing for everyone

Originally Posted by Cherie

A transgender section, with MtF and FtM categories, yes there is the issue that it might be a small category, but so be it?

It's a very strong statement that "trans people" are a third separate gender that is neither male nor female. I know that a lot of people think that way; but I would hazard a guess that very few trans individuals think that way and I think the suggestion that they should just accept that as the "simple" solution with no further discussion is highly dismissive of the issues in a way that I just don't understand.

I understand it not being feasible for (especially) MtF transexuals to compete in female sports competitions but I don't understand, at all, the resistance to anyone properly exploring and discussing what is possible. |There's a lot of "NO! NEVER! We'll just do THIS and that's fine and they'll just have to accept that, end of." and again, always with these discussions I'm left wondering ... why? Why does it have to be "as simple as ..."? Why are we not saying "Yeah this doesn't really work, it would probably be a good idea if the various sporting organisations set up focus groups to figure out how to make each sport inclusive and fair at the same time". Like... the idea that we've explored all of the possibilities properly and thoroughly is just not true... but there seems to be a real (dare I say it) revulsion at the idea of even doing that and that it isn't a case of "No just no".

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

What is it about women-only events you don't understand, TS?

If women allow this to happen we might as well go back to the 1950s and all you boys can direct our lives again... this time forever.

I've said repeatedly that it shouldn't happen but here I'll do it again if it helps;

It shouldn't happen.


What I meant was, "not allowing MtF transexuals in female sports" is a solution to the problem of unfairness in women's sports, but it's only a partial overall solution because it doesn't address the other part of the problem. I understand that this is the part you couldn't give a stuff about, and that's your prerogative, but you can't insist that other people shouldn't?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's a very strong statement that "trans people" are a third separate gender that is neither male nor female. I know that a lot of people think that way; but I would hazard a guess that very few trans individuals think that way and I think the suggestion that they should just accept that as the "simple" solution with no further discussion is highly dismissive of the issues in a way that I just don't understand.

I understand it not being feasible for (especially) MtF transexuals to compete in female sports competitions but I don't understand, at all, the resistance to anyone properly exploring and discussing what is possible. |There's a lot of "NO! NEVER! We'll just do THIS and that's fine and they'll just have to accept that, end of." and again, always with these discussions I'm left wondering ... why? Why does it have to be "as simple as ..."? Why are we not saying "Yeah this doesn't really work, it would probably be a good idea if the various sporting organisations set up focus groups to figure out how to make each sport inclusive and fair at the same time". Like... the idea that we've explored all of the possibilities properly and thoroughly is just not true... but there seems to be a real (dare I say it) revulsion at the idea of even doing that and that it isn't a case of "No just no".

I mean, that's all well and good TS but here you are berating women for just suggesting that trans women should have their own category with "no discussions allowed" when the reality is the actual opposite, that trans women have just been allowed to compete against women with no discussion or "focus" groups about it and women are the ones being told to deal with it and shut the **** up about it or you're a transphobe. You keep accusing women of doing the **** that transwomen are actually doing

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I mean, that's all well and good TS but here you are berating women for just suggesting that trans women should have their own category with "no discussions allowed" when the reality is the actual opposite, that trans women have just been allowed to compete against women with no discussion or "focus" groups about it and women are the ones being told to deal with it and shut the **** up about it or you're a transphobe. You keep accusing women of doing the **** that transwomen are actually doing

It doesn't have to be one way OR the other that's the right thing to do. It doesn't have to be shut down from either side. I'm not saying it IS currently being handled well or properly, I'm saying that being reasonable the goal should be to do that and not just backlash vs backlash vs backlash.

I'm also aware that this is rarely how the world actually works but we can always dare to dream. Maybe there's a better solution that suits everyone or at least mostly everyone. Don't know if you don't try, and all that.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I mean, that's all well and good TS but here you are berating women for just suggesting that trans women should have their own category with "no discussions allowed" when the reality is the actual opposite, that trans women have just been allowed to compete against women with no discussion or "focus" groups about it and women are the ones being told to deal with it and shut the **** up about it or you're a transphobe. You keep accusing women of doing the **** that transwomen are actually doing

I find it's always men who have the most to say about transwomen being included with born women, and that we're radical feminists if we disagree. I have no issue with transwomen... but they are different from me. And trans athletes... well, I can hardly believe that grown ups are suggesting transwomen compete with born women.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It doesn't have to be one way OR the other that's the right thing to do. It doesn't have to be shut down from either side. I'm not saying it IS currently being handled well or properly, I'm saying that being reasonable the goal should be to do that and not just backlash vs backlash vs backlash.

I'm also aware that this is rarely how the world actually works but we can always dare to dream. Maybe there's a better solution that suits everyone or at least mostly everyone. Don't know if you don't try, and all that.

No but it seems like we're not allowed speak about or discuss it. It seems like the Trans "side" are far more reluctant to debate the issue than women are. Women are being told either agree or shut up...... that is what's happening right now. Sport was changed without discussing it with women. Martina Navratolova was vilified for daring to raise concerns.

[Vienna]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It doesn't have to be one way OR the other that's the right thing to do. It doesn't have to be shut down from either side. I'm not saying it IS currently being handled well or properly, I'm saying that being reasonable the goal should be to do that and not just backlash vs backlash vs backlash.

I'm also aware that this is rarely how the world actually works but we can always dare to dream. Maybe there's a better solution that suits everyone or at least mostly everyone. Don't know if you don't try, and all that.

Well as women hugely outnumber transwomen I think a transgender section would suit mostly everyone. Case closed.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vienna

Well as women hugely outnumber transwomen I think a transgender section would suit mostly everyone. Case closed.

LOL... if only.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

No but it seems like we're not allowed speak about or discuss it. It seems like the Trans "side" are far more reluctant to debate the issue than women are. Women are being told either agree or shut up...... that is what's happening right now. Sport was changed without discussing it with women. Martina Navratolova was vilified for daring to raise concerns.

I just don't know that "they can just have a trans league" is really discussing the issue though? It feels dismissive to me, as admittedly an outside observer who isn't affected by either "side" of this. I'm not for a second arguing that plenty of trans activists aren't equally dismissive of women's concerns, but one doesn't excuse the other.

It seems like there should be plenty of scope for level-headed, reasonable discussion of the actual issues but no one seems willing to engage, and I doubt anyone is going to be happy until something changes.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Vienna

Well as women hugely outnumber transwomen I think a transgender section would suit mostly everyone. Case closed.

Go away Brillo.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I just don't know that "they can just have a trans league" is really discussing the issue though? It feels dismissive to me, as admittedly an outside observer who isn't affected by either "side" of this. I'm not for a second arguing that plenty of trans activists aren't equally dismissive of women's concerns, but one doesn't excuse the other.

It seems like there should be plenty of scope for level-headed, reasonable discussion of the actual issues but no one seems willing to engage, and I doubt anyone is going to be happy until something changes.

How can you have a discussion without someone to discuss it with though....this is the issue.

BIB - Totally wrong, transwomen in sport are unwilling to engage unless you agree with them on it. Rachel McKinnon for example (the trans cyclist who Martina Navratoliva had the initial back and forth with) refused to debate the issue on her recent radio appearance so the radio station canceled the opposing debater

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm sure if you think about that though Marsh you can see the problems there. People who transition do so to transition to the opposite gender... not to "become a trans". It's not supposed to be a third gender... that's sort of the point. I mean surely you realise that comparing it to a disability is (to use one of my most hated words) problematic?

I dunno. Like I said I can't figure out a working solution to this one that doesn't involve significant "othering". i.e. "I have to sign up for the Trans events because I'm not a man / woman, I am just a Trans".

And then, do you have a M2F category and a F2M category? Or do you just lump 'em all together and hope that it all hormonally and physically evens out?

Erm... I didn't compare them to a disability. I simply used an example of a section of our society who would otherwise be excluded from elite sports being able to still compete without an unfair advantage/disadvantage.

Don't put words in my mouth by making out I called transpeople disabled. You're better than that.

Yeah, it's not supposed to be a third gender. But this isn't about gender, it's about sex and their physical makeup.

It's no more "othering" than having male and female categories. It's pretty simple but people are just fearful of causing offence when really there's nothing offensive about it.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Erm... I didn't compare them to a disability. I simply used an example of a section of our society who would otherwise be excluded from elite sports being able to still compete without an unfair advantage/disadvantage.

Don't put words in my mouth.

Yeah, it's not supposed to be a third gender. But this isn't about gender, it's about sex and their physical makeup.

It's no more "othering" than having male and female categories. It's pretty simple but people are just fearful of causing offence when really there's nothing offensive about it.

Exactly.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Right but I see a lot of people agreeing about the problem, with very little willingness to talk about any potential solution to that problem. Which is odd and why I often come away from these topics feeling like it's just a flood of dogma.

Unless there's enough trans athletes to justify their own events then there's little to be done until there is.

It's not fair for MtF trans people to compete with cis women, you can't edge out female athletes out of their sport and career for not being born a male.