[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Go away Brillo.

[Northern Monkey]

Well i mean other than it being ridiculously unfair the main concern i think should be safety.Safety should trump hurty feelz.
Womens safety is put at risk in team sports and combat sports(i can’t even believe mtf were allowed to get in the ring with biological females ever).

It can’t just carry on until a woman is seriously injured or killed.

The only possible solution imo is seperate categories.I can’t possibly think of a better solution.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Well i mean other than it being ridiculously unfair the main concern i think should be safety.Safety should trump hurty feelz.
Womens safety is put at risk in team sports and combat sports(i can’t even believe mtf were allowed to get in the ring with biological females ever).

It can’t just carry on until a woman is seriously injured or killed.

The only possible solution imo is seperate categories.I can’t possibly think of a better solution.

Monkey's arrived with all the sense. x

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

BIB - Totally wrong, transwomen in sport are unwilling to engage unless you agree with them on it. Rachel McKinnon for example (the trans cyclist who Martina Navratoliva had the initial back and forth with) refused to debate the issue on her recent radio appearance so the radio station canceled the opposing debater

OK well when I say "no one" seems willing, I should clarify that I mean it seems (to me) that very few people on either "side" seem willing, not that literally no one has tried.

Originally Posted by Marsh.

It's no more "othering" than having male and female categories. It's pretty simple but people are just fearful of causing offence when really there's nothing offensive about it.

Hmmmm OK but being honest, I still can't get my head around this being anything other than "Male / Female / Miscellaneous" categorisation and when it comes to gender issues that seems like the very crux of "othering". I'm not trans though so I can't claim to know, I'm only trying my best to empathise with both sides, in stating that no... MtF transexuals probably shouldn't be allowed to compete with women but I uderstand why that sucks for them and serves as a constant reminder that they are "other".

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's not fair for MtF trans people to compete with cis women, you can't edge out female athletes out of their sport and career for not being born a male.

I mean I don't know how many times I can realistically repeat that I agree with this, I'm starting to worry that I'm in a fugue state and haven't literally said it 10+ times.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

The only possible solution imo is seperate categories. I can’t possibly think of a better solution.

"I think we should set up a multi-year focus group to look into this issue and think about the best way forward and possible inclusive solutions."

"Oh wait, there's no point because someone on TiBB couldn't think of a better solution in the time it took to read the SD thread about it."


Come on Monkey. You can't possibly be suggesting that because you can't ponder out another solution in 5 minutes, there definitely isn't one.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

"I think we should set up a multi-year focus group to look into this issue and think about the best way forward and possible inclusive solutions."

"Oh wait, there's no point because someone on TiBB couldn't think of a better solution in the time it took to read the SD thread about it."


Come on Monkey. You can't possibly be suggesting that because you can't ponder out another solution in 5 minutes, there definitely isn't one.

True i’m no expert on this topic(or any).All i have is my opinion and that is it.

The focus group is a good idea and most likely similar to what will happen.
Hopefully with many knowledgeable experts.

I still don’t think they will come up with a better solution.
I mean what is there other than handicapping(which will still have the effect of ‘othering’) or future medical advances.
It may be a case of separate categories in the short term until some kind of technology is invented.
In combat sports with regard handicapping what could possibly be done now to even the playing field of a person who has gone through male puberty punching a biological woman repeatedly in the head?Maybe tie one arm behind their back?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

OK well when I say "no one" seems willing, I should clarify that I mean it seems (to me) that very few people on either "side" seem willing, not that literally no one has tried.



Hmmmm OK but being honest, I still can't get my head around this being anything other than "Male / Female / Miscellaneous" categorisation and when it comes to gender issues that seems like the very crux of "othering". I'm not trans though so I can't claim to know, I'm only trying my best to empathise with both sides, in stating that no... MtF transexuals probably shouldn't be allowed to compete with women but I uderstand why that sucks for them and serves as a constant reminder that they are "other".



I mean I don't know how many times I can realistically repeat that I agree with this, I'm starting to worry that I'm in a fugue state and haven't literally said it 10+ times.

It does suck for them unfortunately. Hopefully not forever.

But a difference must be made between someone being discriminated against and being excluded from sport because of it. And the very nature of their transition creating an unfair advantage or disadvantage.

I mean, apparently they even have events for people who have had transplants. That's not discrimination either.

The fact is competitive sports is all about the physical similarities and differences and giving everyone the equal playing field to compete. To act like this is the sports clubs just refusing to include transpeople is ridiculous. People are split into all manner of categories and events to make the competition fair. Transpeople shouldn't be exempt.

They ARE and do become their preferred gender, but physically they ARE and always will be different to those who were born that gender. It's just a fact. One India Willoughby points out herself.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

True i’m no expert on this topic(or any).All i have is my opinion and that is it.

The focus group is a good idea and most likely similar to what will happen.
Hopefully with many knowledgeable experts.

I still don’t think they will come up with a better solution.
I mean what is there other than handicapping(which will still have the effect of ‘othering’) or future medical advances.
It may be a case of separate categories in the short term until some kind of technology is invented.
In combat sports with regard handicapping what could possibly be done now to even the playing field of a person who has gone through male puberty punching a biological woman repeatedly in the head?Maybe tie one arm behind their back?

Allow drugs and bionic enhancements for all, completely negate the physical advantage of being male because everyone has synthetic muscle mass or hydraulic limbs anyway. Completely unethical but wildly entertaining?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Allow drugs and bionic enhancements for all, completely negate the physical advantage of being male because everyone has synthetic muscle mass or hydraulic limbs anyway. Completely unethical but wildly entertaining?

Seems like 90% of athletes do that nowadays anyway, atleast it would make it fair for those poor ones who don't

Speaking of which I rewatched Dodgeball the other day, Lance Armstrongs camio and preachy script is so funny to watch now the truth has come out about him

[Alf]

Let me be your fantasy! (woman)

Can't wait for the boxing.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's a very strong statement that "trans people" are a third separate gender that is neither male nor female. I know that a lot of people think that way; but I would hazard a guess that very few trans individuals think that way and I think the suggestion that they should just accept that as the "simple" solution with no further discussion is highly dismissive of the issues in a way that I just don't understand.

I understand it not being feasible for (especially) MtF transexuals to compete in female sports competitions but I don't understand, at all, the resistance to anyone properly exploring and discussing what is possible. |There's a lot of "NO! NEVER! We'll just do THIS and that's fine and they'll just have to accept that, end of." and again, always with these discussions I'm left wondering ... why? Why does it have to be "as simple as ..."? Why are we not saying "Yeah this doesn't really work, it would probably be a good idea if the various sporting organisations set up focus groups to figure out how to make each sport inclusive and fair at the same time". Like... the idea that we've explored all of the possibilities properly and thoroughly is just not true... but there seems to be a real (dare I say it) revulsion at the idea of even doing that and that it isn't a case of "No just no".

That is not what I am saying at all and you know it I am not talking about gender, I am talking about categories in sport as you well know, of which there are many already, so this would be just creating another CATEGORY, not another gender entirely

[Vicky.]

Sport is segregated by sex for good reason. People should compete with those of their own sex really. And no, this does not mean transmen will have to compete with female people because basically, if they are on testosterone they are doping. If they are not doping, then there is no issue with them competing with females...but honestly they can compete with men if they want as the advantage is not there the other way.

I actually think a fairly decent solution is to have female sport, and 'other'. Transwomen, nor transmen will have a natural advantage over men. Can't see that going down very well though.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Sport is segregated by sex for good reason. People should compete with those of their own sex really. And no, this does not mean transmen will have to compete with female people because basically, if they are on testosterone they are doping. If they are not doping, then there is no issue with them competing with females...but honestly they can compete with men if they want as the advantage is not there the other way.

I actually think a fairly decent solution is to have female sport, and 'other'. Transwomen, nor transmen will have a natural advantage over men. Can't see that going down very well though.

Well one thing I thought was that the categories could just be... like... "Everyone", and then separate leagues for JUST biological women, but does that not seem a bit... patronising?

By which I mean, literally anyone could try compete in the "main" league (including any female who wants to), and then a separate league for those who don't feel able to compete in the main league. I don't know how to make this sound good TBF.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well one thing I thought was that the categories could just be... like... "Everyone", and then separate leagues for JUST biological women, but does that not seem a bit... patronising?

By which I mean, literally anyone could try compete in the "main" league (including any female who wants to), and then a separate league for those who don't feel able to compete in the main league. I don't know how to make this sound good TBF.

Its awkward to talk about for sure, but I think my 'solution' is pretty much the same as yours

The only thing I am sure of in this is that its pretty undeniable males have an advantage over females, and allowing males into female sport basically destroys female sport...so some solution needs to be brought up fast!

A female league for females who want to compete on an even level...but females could also enter the 'other' if they chose...I can't see any woman ever winning in that section though because, biology. But the choice is there, and it does not disadvantage blokes. Win win, surely?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

A female league for females who want to compete on an even level...but females could also enter the 'other' if they chose...I can't see any woman ever winning in that section though because, biology. But the choice is there, and it does not disadvantage blokes. Win win, surely?

Depends on the sport, surely... e.g. I've never really understood why there are male and female events for things like precision shooting at the olympics . Same with darts, snooker, I think even chess championships are divided by gender? Can't really figure out why when it comes to those.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Depends on the sport, surely... e.g. I've never really understood why there are male and female events for things like precision shooting at the olympics . Same with darts, snooker, I think even chess championships are divided by gender? Can't really figure out why when it comes to those.

Some stuff doesn't need to be segregated. I *think* also extreme long distance running is about the only physical thing women would beat men at physically. Not sure on that though, just something in my head for some reason and have not checked.

Never really understood why darts and shooting and stuff is sex segregated. But anything thats basically pure power/strength, the blokes tend to have it Yet saying this is controversial apparently.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Depends on the sport, surely... e.g. I've never really understood why there are male and female events for things like precision shooting at the olympics . Same with darts, snooker, I think even chess championships are divided by gender? Can't really figure out why when it comes to those.

Women do play darts with men, they were in the PDC World championships in December for the first time.

The best female player in the world, Lisa Ashton was knocked out by average male player Jan Decker in the first round, the other female in it, Dobromislova, also knocked out in the first round by an average male player.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

Women do play darts with men, they were in the PDC World championships in December for the first time.



The best female player in the world, Lisa Ashton was knocked out by average male player Jan Decker in the first round, the other female in it, Dobromislova, also knocked out in the first round by an average male player.

To be fair I've heard the same of Chess when there are mixed competitions, and the same tends to apply to e-sports though the reason for that is more obvious as the male:female ratio is still huge (though decreasing). It may just be because of history though, and we'll see more females rising to the top over time.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well one thing I thought was that the categories could just be... like... "Everyone", and then separate leagues for JUST biological women, but does that not seem a bit... patronising?

By which I mean, literally anyone could try compete in the "main" league (including any female who wants to), and then a separate league for those who don't feel able to compete in the main league. I don't know how to make this sound good TBF.

Erm... yeah, the ten tonne bodybuilder versus the skinny woman with a missing leg. The "everyone" category really works.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Erm... yeah, the ten tonne bodybuilder versus the skinny woman with a missing leg. The "everyone" category really works.

Well why not

[Alf]

Russia would do anything to win medals, this is right up their street.

[Cherie]

I don't know why anyone would have an issue with a male and female trans category

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I don't know why anyone would have an issue with a male and female trans category

Because athletics is boring enough

[chuff me dizzy]

Of course they have a massive advantage !they are men when you peel away with surgery

[Ant.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Why not get a trans-athlete?

Or at least someone other than the twat that is India Willoughby speaking on behalf of transpeople in every god damn TV segment.

Caitlyn Jenner is an ex-athlete who is trans so let's not go there

/misses the point