[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...surely it’s not a thing about reasonable or not reasonable ....but medical facts..which medical sections are saying that children would probably die without a vaccine and indicating child abuse...?...

Not the medical professionals Ammi, the social media / forum "vaccination champions"

The point is that it SHOULD be about weighing up actual medical facts, but the debate descends into this tabloid comment section nonsense pretty much instantly and you get accused of all sorts for saying anything other than "vaccines stop illness and never cause any harm".

[Ammi]

...I mean vaccinations are parental choice ...both here and I presume in the US...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Not the medical professionals Ammi, the social media / forum "vaccination champions"

...I still don’t understand why this is an issue though in terms of any type of ‘society pressure’...is that what’s being inferred...?...judgemental parents on social media is surely all it is...if it wasn’t this it would be that or that or that etc, type thing...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I mean vaccinations are parental choice ...both here and I presume in the US...

Not for long in a number of US states, worryingly.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I still don’t understand why this is an issue though in terms of any type of ‘society pressure’...is that what’s being inferred...?...judgemental parents on social media is surely all it is...if it wasn’t this it would be that or that or that etc, type thing...

Societal pressure hampers rational debate and also often influences policy.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Not for long in a number of US states, worryingly.

...okay, sorry I’m behind the times with some current world issues.../...I didn’t realise it was going to be made compulsory in the US so I understand the strength of your feeling now, TS....yeah the world is in reverse gear atm I fear...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Societal pressure hampers rational debate and also often influences policy.

...Lord you sound as though you’re writing part of a thesis there......very formal and stiff...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...Lord you sound as though you’re writing part of a thesis there......very formal and stiff...

I'm always formal and stiff in the mornings Ammi

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Fever and seizures are the most common which don't usually have lasting effects but can obviously have the same lasting effect as any fever or seizure if there are complications. The other major one (less common) is anaphylaxis which is obviously much more severe and can result in death. Most other side effects are mild and temporary.

Yes, a friend of mine..her kid ended up with brain damage because of a jab. The autism thing is clearly ridiculous and Wakefield should probably be locked up for spreading mass panic, but there ARE side effects, sometimes serious ones so not sure I would be comfortable with forcing people to go through with it. Now, what happened was a huge allergic reaction, which wasn't dealt with that well by the nurse who fannied about so he ended up going a while without oxygen to his brain...so it was a few failures at once, but it did make me quite..releuctant. I knew it had to be done mind and that it would help them (and other kids) in the long run but when I got Skyes I was ****ing terrified. I also think that they should spread them out a bit more than they do, from memory there were many many different illnesses all going into her tiny body over the space of like 3 months, and she was only a few weeks old when she got the first one too! I was a bit more chilled at James', but still quite scared tbh. Also with James I was told the truth, and told there was very small (but existant) a chance of very serious consequences and that, wih Skye...I wasn't and was basically given the whole 'some people are scared of vaccinations for their kids, and theres absolutely no reason for that!' stuff which made me rage quite a lot and I ended up arguing with the nurse and they threatened to remove me from the doctors list for not being compliant enough and agreeing weith what I knew was bull****. So..not telling parents the truth doesn't help matters really, and does leave the door wide open for people to 'research' theirself..which tends to mean a 5 min google followed by lots of 'omg autism!' horror.

I tend to stay out of these conversations as I know that even bringing this up will get me labelled an 'anti-vaxxer' as say anything at all against them and..you are as bad as a flat earther. So yeah, the autism link is nonsense, and can be proven to be nonsense, but some go on as if injections are totally harmless, which is (as with near everything in life really) not the case at all. And having someone I know who had horrendous side effects from them..it makes me rage a little bit when reading all the 'people who don't vax should have their kids taken' stuff tbh.

[AnnieK]

What I don't like to see is people dictating to others. People become horrified that states are outlawing abortion as it is the woman's body and rightly should be her decision but when they are making their decisions about their children they shouldn't have that right or face losing their children?? Should we wait till kids can make their own informed choices whether to vaccinate themselves? Or should we allow the parents to choose?

[arista]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yes, a friend of mine..her kid ended up with brain damage because of a jab. The autism thing is clearly ridiculous and Wakefield should probably be locked up for spreading mass panic, but there ARE side effects, sometimes serious ones so not sure I would be comfortable with forcing people to go through with it. Now, what happened was a huge allergic reaction, which wasn't dealt with that well by the nurse who fannied about so he ended up going a while without oxygen to his brain...so it was a few failures at once, but it did make me quite..releuctant. I knew it had to be done mind and that it would help them (and other kids) in the long run but when I got Skyes I was ****ing terrified. I also think that they should spread them out a bit more than they do, from memory there were many many different illnesses all going into her tiny body over the space of like 3 months, and she was only a few weeks old when she got the first one too! I was a bit more chilled at James', but still quite scared tbh. Also with James I was told the truth, and told there was very small (but existant) a chance of very serious consequences and that, wih Skye...I wasn't and was basically given the whole 'some people are scared of vaccinations for their kids, and theres absolutely no reason for that!' stuff which made me rage quite a lot and I ended up arguing with the nurse and they threatened to remove me from the doctors list for not being compliant enough and agreeing weith what I knew was bull****. So..not telling parents the truth doesn't help matters really, and does leave the door wide open for people to 'research' theirself..which tends to mean a 5 min google followed by lots of 'omg autism!' horror.

I tend to stay out of these conversations as I know that even bringing this up will get me labelled an 'anti-vaxxer' as say anything at all against them and..you are as bad as a flat earther. So yeah, the autism link is nonsense, and can be proven to be nonsense, but some go on as if injections are totally harmless, which is (as with near everything in life really) not the case at all. And having someone I know who had horrendous side effects from them..it makes me rage a little bit when reading all the 'people who don't vax should have their kids taken' stuff tbh.

Brain Damage
can just happen at the same time, though
I would think.
"Coincidence"

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by arista

Brain Damage
can just happen at the same time, though
I would think.
"Coincidence"

Erm, well no it was not coincidence as the allergic reaction was directly caused by the injection..the brain damage did not 'just happen', it was caused by the reaction to the jab given to the kid.

Of course its true that near anything can cause such a reaction though. If that was a bit of a hamfisted way of saying that.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm always formal and stiff in the mornings Ammi

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

What I don't like to see is people dictating to others. People become horrified that states are outlawing abortion as it is the woman's body and rightly should be her decision but when they are making their decisions about their children they shouldn't have that right or face losing their children?? Should we wait till kids can make their own informed choices whether to vaccinate themselves? Or should we allow the parents to choose?

Exactly Annie, I see it as the same thing, my body, my choice, kids bodies parents choice, that said my are vaccinated for everything they can be vaccinated for, I had measles as a kid and its not pleasant

[arista]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Erm, well no it was not coincidence as the allergic reaction was directly caused by the injection..the brain damage did not 'just happen', it was caused by the reaction to the jab given to the kid.

Of course its true that near anything can cause such a reaction though. If that was a bit of a hamfisted way of saying that.

Well a Rare sad occurrence

[RileyH]

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I sound anti-vaxx because I don't want to play into the patronising lie that vaccinations are risk free, despite clearly explaining that I have vaccinated my children, advocate vaccination of children, and clearly have laid out that the risks that exist are smaller than the risks of not vaccinating? OK champ.

I think I'll avoid your explanations since your comprehension here is based in typical tabloid style "outrage nonsense". Not one iota of substance. Meh.

I thought you were better than this tbh, how disappointing.

Vaccinations hold far less risk than the illnesses they protect against and by doing what you're doing, you're giving anti-vaxxers an inch so they can take a mile. It doesn't matter if you vaccinated your kids if you are giving these people ammunition to spread their ignorance.

We shouldn't encourage people's igorance, TS.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

What I don't like to see is people dictating to others. People become horrified that states are outlawing abortion as it is the woman's body and rightly should be her decision but when they are making their decisions about their children they shouldn't have that right or face losing their children?? Should we wait till kids can make their own informed choices whether to vaccinate themselves? Or should we allow the parents to choose?

Completely different things.

Banning abortions is basically restricting a woman's right to make decisions about her own body, an abortion isn't a health risk to anyone other than the woman in question. By not vaccinating a child, the parent is making a choice that can harm that child as well as younger children around them who are too young to be vaccinated. Why should someone else's child who is too young to be vaccinated get sick because of another parent's ignorance?

Anti-Vaxxer beliefs are unfounded, it was all based on the lies of a doctor who has since been struck off the register. Are vaccinations completely risk free? Nope, but are they typically more dangerous to children than the illnesses they vaccinate against? Certainly not.

Anti-vaxxers are dumb ***** that don't deserve to be parents.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Anti-Vaxxer beliefs are unfounded, it was all based on the lies of a doctor who has since been struck off the register. Are vaccinations completely risk free? Nope, but are they typically more dangerous to children than the illnesses they vaccinate against? Certainly not.

Not enough IMO. His lies will affect people for many years to come.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Completely different things.

Banning abortions is basically restricting a woman's right to make decisions about her own body, an abortion isn't a health risk to anyone other than the woman in question. By not vaccinating a child, the parent is making a choice that can harm that child as well as younger children around them who are too young to be vaccinated. Why should someone else's child who is too young to be vaccinated get sick because of another parent's ignorance?

Anti-Vaxxer beliefs are unfounded, it was all based on the lies of a doctor who has since been struck off the register. Are vaccinations completely risk free? Nope, but are they typically more dangerous to children than the illnesses they vaccinate against? Certainly not.

Anti-vaxxers are dumb ***** that don't deserve to be parents.

and people who get the flu can potentially infect and kill other people with underlying conditions or elderly people etc but we don't all rush out and get the flu jab now do we?

[bitontheslide]

You play the %'s game with vaccines. You have to weigh up the chances of an issue with taking a vaccine versus chances of infection if you don't get it. In all cases that I am aware, a vaccine is far preferable to the consequences of infection. **** happens for sure, and some are badly affected by vaccines, but if i'm playing the numbers game, i prefer to go for the best odds

[Ammi]

....with measles in young children there is a high risk of complications I believe and some of those complications are life threatening...it’s not the same high risk of any complications when contracting influenza though...which is why they’re not really compatible imo and also a flu vaccination doesn’t prevent a disease, its just some protection for the more vulnerable in some cases...

.....hmmm I also agree with Dezzy that this ‘choice’ doesn’t really compare to a pregnancy either because surely pro choice in pregnancy applies to before a birth becomes viable...in many things, parents sadly do not always make choices which are best for a child...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I thought you were better than this tbh, how disappointing.



Vaccinations hold far less risk than the illnesses they protect against

Yes I've said that several times.

and by doing what you're doing, you're giving anti-vaxxers an inch so they can take a mile. It doesn't matter if you vaccinated your kids if you are giving these people ammunition to spread their ignorance.

No. Lying about it is patronising, counter-productive, authoritarian and draconian. It does nothing but bolster the mistrust in the establishment and cause people to dig their heels in. Proper, open, truthful weighing up of the benefits and drawbacks are all that is required, and frankly all that is acceptable.

We shouldn't encourage people's igorance, TS.

No we shouldn't and that's why I'm completely unwilling to accept your orwellian stance that unvaccinated children from secure, loving homes should be stripped for their families and placed into care. Just horrendous ignorance is all that can be said for that.

[Twosugars]

Parents are usually not medically qualified to make such decisions. My default position would be to listen to medical professionals

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

and people who get the flu can potentially infect and kill other people with underlying conditions or elderly people etc but we don't all rush out and get the flu jab now do we?

That's a really silly comparison tbh mainly because the people at risk from the flu are usually the first to be offered the flu jab.

It also doesn't really contradict what I'm saying at all. People don't get the flu jab so it's okay for illnesses that can be vaccinated againt to spread among children? Weird argument but k.