FAQ |
Members List |
Calendar |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Serious Debates & News Debate and discussion about political, moral, philosophical, celebrity and news topics. |
Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
26-05-2019, 02:43 PM | #76 | ||
|
|||
-
|
|
||
Reply With Quote |
26-05-2019, 02:44 PM | #77 | ||
|
|||
-
|
|
||
Reply With Quote |
26-05-2019, 02:48 PM | #78 | ||
|
|||
Stiff Member
|
|
||
Reply With Quote |
26-05-2019, 02:50 PM | #79 | |||
|
||||
Quand il pleut, il pleut
|
...it is a very difficult one though because if people in large numbers chose to ignore medical opinion and didn’t have their children inoculated...?...then deadly infant diseases would grow more and more common in the western world...and that’s also going backwards in time surely..?...to me that would be the by far worse scenario...
|
|||
Reply With Quote |
26-05-2019, 02:53 PM | #80 | |||
|
||||
Quand il pleut, il pleut
|
...and yet you have been a user of it on several occasions TS, you know you have...enough now with the personal silliness...you both just have polar opposite opinions with this is all and both feel equally strongly about it...
|
|||
Reply With Quote |
26-05-2019, 03:09 PM | #81 | ||
|
|||
Banned
|
There's a lot of 'look over here instead of at the issue' going on here.
The current outbreaks in the US are down to the rise of anti-Vaxxers that believe what they find to be convenient over scientific fact. They disregard reality in favour of conspiracy. Vaccines can have side effects but it's down to vaccines that many terrible diseases have been eradicated and it's because of moronic parents that care more about their facebook groups than their children that these illnesses could return. If you are willing to put your child in harm's way for your beliefs then that is child endangerment to me and should be treated as such. Even entertaining their ignorance for a second validates it in their eyes so I can't see TS' view as anything other than encouragement of the anti-vaxxer movement even if he says he disagrees with it. |
||
Reply With Quote |
26-05-2019, 03:14 PM | #82 | ||
|
|||
-
|
Quote:
I will never agree that the latter is the better option, and I think a "half way" choice with "exceptions" is naive. If you accept giving the authorities the right to make one medical decision for yourself and your family, you accept the path where the authorities make all medical decisions for all families. Vaccinating is the right choice but no one is ever going to convince me that the choice should be taken away. |
||
Reply With Quote |
26-05-2019, 03:24 PM | #83 | ||
|
|||
-
|
Quote:
So I can only stand by what I said. Legal intervention is wrong and conceptually terrifying, and scare tactics that involve flat out lies ("your children will die if you don't vaccinate!!") are ineffective at best and counterproductive at worst. Because it literally takes 5 seconds of googling to reveal that that is false, and thus, the whole argument collapses and becomes irrelevant. WHY would you expect people to listen to people after they have engaged in arguments that are scientifically verifiable lies? It's madness. Last edited by Toy Soldier; 26-05-2019 at 03:27 PM. |
||
Reply With Quote |
26-05-2019, 03:38 PM | #84 | |||
|
||||
Quand il pleut, il pleut
|
Quote:
...but then this ‘choice’ is not made about us as adults, TS...what if every parent or a majority of parents said...no!!...we won’t inoculate, it’s our child and our choice...the Western world regresses into many child deaths and we as parents felt it was our right to decide on the potential life or death of our child..?...I really do think it’s a complicated thing to consider tbh... |
|||
Reply With Quote |
26-05-2019, 03:46 PM | #85 | ||
|
|||
-
|
Quote:
|
||
Reply With Quote |
26-05-2019, 04:04 PM | #86 | |||
|
||||
Quand il pleut, il pleut
|
Quote:
|
|||
Reply With Quote |
26-05-2019, 04:23 PM | #87 | ||
|
|||
-
|
Quote:
The current vaccine schedule is reasonable and effective and everyone SHOULD adhere to it voluntarily. What if we give away our right to choose, and then in a year's time some government department decides to add in 10 new vaccines for relatively low risk illnesses, and some of the research puts a question mark over how safe or effective the new ones are? What if we THEN decide "Oh I'm not sure about all of these?". Well, tough **** you gave away the right to make that assessment, and your kids will be forcibly taken from you if you fail to comply. Its horrifying! I don't know how anyone can believe otherwise, unless they truly believe that giving away that right would be limited to the current vaccine schedule. Or even just vaccines. That's not how it works, and that's not how guardianship works. You sign away the right to make that decision and you sign away all of your medical decisions. You sign away your right to make that decision for your children and you sign away parental guardianship in favour of state guardianship. It's not a pick'n'mix. Last edited by Toy Soldier; 26-05-2019 at 04:24 PM. |
||
Reply With Quote |
26-05-2019, 04:55 PM | #88 | |||
|
||||
Quand il pleut, il pleut
|
Quote:
...with measles isn’t it something like a one in twenty ration of complications occurring in children under 5 yrs old..?...that isn’t a scare tactic TS, that’s a terrifying percentage to take a risk of a child contracting the disease through not being given an inoculation...of course, a complication won’t necessarily be life threatening, I understand that...but some of the complications like pneumonia are obviously life threatening ...and also these complications can lead to life long disabilities...I mean most parents do opt for the vaccination because the risks of not having it far outweigh the risks of having it and some there being a life endangering reaction... ...guardianship of our children surely works to safeguard them, to make decisions for them...(..until they of an age to make their own life decisions..)...which we feel will keep them safe, which will preserve and protect their lives as best we can...refusing a vaccination which counters those things...(...without very specific medical reasons, not just worries etc..).. is surely putting a child at risk... |
|||
Reply With Quote |
26-05-2019, 05:00 PM | #89 | |||
|
||||
Quand il pleut, il pleut
|
...and that’s horrifying to me...we don’t ‘own’ our children, we guard them ...we preserve and we protect them ...if all parents said NO because my choice etc then we’re participating in spreading disease which could fill hospitals/medical centres to capacities that could never be sustained...
|
|||
Reply With Quote |
26-05-2019, 05:15 PM | #90 | ||
|
|||
-
|
All or even most parents will never say no to the main vaccines though, it's not realistic, and you can either believe in the concept of a legal guardian or not I suppose. If you do, then you trust that the legal guardian is genuinely acting in what they sincerely believe is the best interests of their ward. That's what legal guardianship is. It's not a perfect system, but it's the best and least authoritarian system we have.
If you believe that the authorities should have the right to overrule then you don't believe in parental guardianship, you believe in universal state guardianship... And that requires a level of trust in the intentions and competence of the state that I will never agree is justified. We'll have to agree to disagree. |
||
Reply With Quote |
26-05-2019, 05:31 PM | #91 | |||
|
||||
Quand il pleut, il pleut
|
...yeah we’ll agree to disagree..(...although I did think I agreed until I thought about it more and how complicated it is )...because this seems to be the point where I came in...societal pressure../..social and media influences etc..it’s quite possible that many/far too many parents would say No and with no specific reasons other than fears or concerns ...yes I do believe that the majority of parents always try to act in the interest of their children but I also know that ‘the best interest’ will not be the same for every parent..and sometimes will go against best medical advice...
|
|||
Reply With Quote |
26-05-2019, 06:36 PM | #92 | ||
|
|||
-
|
Quote:
|
||
Reply With Quote |
26-05-2019, 07:29 PM | #93 | |||
|
||||
self-oscillating
|
education is the obvious solution. Teach people to have critical thinking
|
|||
Reply With Quote |
27-05-2019, 07:07 AM | #94 | ||
|
|||
-
|
Quote:
They're also at greater risk every time we strap 'em into a car but again, parents who are terrified of vaccines do that every day with a smile. But again IMO we don't help this poor risk perception with "scary myths" designed to force people to vaccinate, it just furthers the perception of the human body as unpredictable and fragile, and that actually is part of what puts people off vaccines in the first place, ironically. |
||
Reply With Quote |
27-05-2019, 09:32 AM | #95 | |||
|
||||
0_o
|
Quote:
Quote:
I used to argue with anti-vaxxers all the time and honestly, its like arguing with a religious zealot. They utterly refuse to listen to any reason, think you are actively trying to hurt their kids..and honestly it reminds me a bit of a cult at times. I don't waste my time anymore, but quite how..stuck in it they are is quite scary. As I said, Wakefield has a ****ing hell of a lot to answer for and really should be in prison..though what charge, I don't really know! Being struck off really isn't enouh for someone like him, a gastroenterologist who is suddenly an expert on vaccines and spreads dangerous myths that will remain forever...
__________________
Quote:
Last edited by Vicky.; 27-05-2019 at 09:33 AM. |
|||
Reply With Quote |
Reply |
|
|