[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

More attempts at validating the anti-vaxx movement while not dealing with the utter hypocrisy how you approach the different sides. You're just being the Abby Huntsman of anti-vaxx.

If pretending that I'm an anti-vax shill helps you to get your head around advocating distasteful levels of government authoritarianism, then by all means continue. I'm not and have presented numerous rguments for vaccination throughout this thread. Just... you know... real ones, instead of imaginary ones.

At the end of the day we are seeing a rise of infection rates of illnesses that were almost non-existent before, that's purely because of the anti-vaxx movement and their stupidity is putting people who genuinely have valid reasons to not be vaccinated at risk. You can jump through as many hoops as you like but thousands of kids get immunised every day without incident and everything that anti-vaxxers preach is basically bull**** regurgitated from a conman doctor that was struck off the register.

I don't disagree with any of that (unless you're trying to claim that vaccine injury rate is zero?), it's just not enough to convince me that the best way to address it is through lies and misquoted statistics, or that it justifies the tacit removal of bodily autonomy by government. Never, ever will.

Even if this bill goes through, it's not gonna force parents to immunise their children, it just means that if their insane beliefs are more important to them then the well being of their child, they'll have to homeschool them instead.

Consent under duress is not consent. This is a concept that already applies to medical procedure consent. This stuff is far more vital to a well-functioning world than vaccination rates. Maybe you don't agree, and that's fine too.

[Ramsay]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yeah agree with all this too tbh,

I don't quite understand why some are willing to overlook everything else, and cling on to one study by Wakefield..

Dunning Kruger Effect. Usually parents that never did well academically who now want to appear smarter than they are.

[arista]

From The Conservative Conference in Manchester
The Health Secretary has said he consulting
with the NHS Specialists on how to do a ban...........................

[arista]

[Ammi]

...the compulsory vaccinations for school children is something being considered, something that’s being discussed as a possible proposal...but it very much has complications also..if and when it’s ever ‘confirmed’...which is what the thread title suggests, that the Health Secretary has confirmed the ban...?...very lazy posting, sir...

[arista]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...the compulsory vaccinations for school children is something being considered, something that’s being discussed as a possible proposal...but it very much has complications also..if and when it’s ever ‘confirmed’...which is what the thread title suggests, that the Health Secretary has confirmed the ban...?...very lazy posting, sir...

Corrected
Confirms - removed.

Until it is.

[arista]

LBC Live
With James
has Banned any non- vaccinated kid Parent
from Phoning his Live debate on it.
30mins left /

Good On Him.

Ammi it may be hard to enforce
but its now got the whole nation Backing this Ban.

[arista]

One Caller on LBC
who has Leukemia and if he gets near one of these kids
Unvaccinated, it will Kill him.

[Niamh.]

I'm a bit torn on this one, I'm very pro vax generally and I do think it's irresponsible not to vaccinate your child but If you make it compulsory, where does it stop? My kids have had all their normal vaccinations but a few years back they were offered a vaccine in school for either Swine flu or Ebola (I think it was Swine flu) which i refused after getting some advise from a friend of my mothers who's a Doctor (he said he wouldn't be giving it to his kids, not enough testing etc, too rushed out) but then again all the normal one measles/mumps/rubella etc have been extensively tested and proven to be successful and people are just filling themselves up with social media "facts" and anecdotal issues with the vaccines so I don't know where to stand with it tbh. Someone mentioned bodily autonomy back along (maybe TS?) but the child has no bodily autonomy either way here, it's either their parents deciding what's best for them or the state, it seems like the parents deciding against is putting that child at a greater risk

[AnnieK]

Having thought about it, I can almost get on board with it being compulsory but what worries me is its the kids who will suffer when their parents have made the choice. There will always need to be parental consent to actually get the vax and so little Billy who wants to go to school with his mates and learn will not be allowed to do so because his parent's haven't given consent.

[arista]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Having thought about it, I can almost get on board with it being compulsory but what worries me is its the kids who will suffer when their parents have made the choice. There will always need to be parental consent to actually get the vax and so little Billy who wants to go to school with his mates and learn will not be allowed to do so because his parent's haven't given consent.

Yes I am Glad LBC
spent a hour on this.
And Great James, Presenter
banned the Cocky Parent
who has not vaccinated his kid.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

From The Conservative Conference in Manchester
The Health Secretary has said he consulting
with the NHS Specialists on how to do a ban...........................

I think a ban on a child going to school is wrong myself.

However I still would bow to the views of Parents.
Reading the posts here are really interesting.

Plus, I commend Matt Hancock for seeming to do a proper consultation process.
It will be interesting too, to hear his conclusions.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I think a ban on a child going to school is wrong myself.

I don't really understand how its legal. Given its a legal requirement for children to have an education..

[Marsh.]

The crocodile's dilemma.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't really understand how its legal. Given its a legal requirement for children to have an education..

Vicky, in the post brexit world I'm not sure what's going to be legal anymore.

However, I haven't children so I think Parents are the key on all child matters.
I agree if a child has to educated then I don't see a present legal way round this myself.

I mean also, how many children are likely not vaccinated anyway?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I mean also, how many children are likely not vaccinated anyway?

I would think the vast majority of kids are vaccinated.

I think theres a significant minority that aren't though, and given online presence is growing, and with it the group of people who seem to get their news from social media and the likes (part of the reason for the brexit vote I think, given you mentioned it ) the amount of people who chose not to vaccinate based on internet scare stories will be growing too.

I think most parents will fall inbetween the 'you are literally killing thousands of people by not vaccinating!!!!!1' and 'vaccinating my child will cause instant death, I read it on facebook so its gospel' types. And luckily, I reckon the middle ground group will mainly all go for vaccinating based on rational risk analysis..but it is quite worrying that the social media news group is growing.

Probably makes me fall a litte closer to 'omg, murderer' type group for even talking about other parents in this..dismissive way. It doesn't really help and will never convince others to go for vaccination if they do believe all the scare stories. Mind, I honestly don't think that any rational speech would affect them or make them stop catastrophizing to be quite honest.

I don't know what the answer is really. But...this does not do it for me, for the main reason of..you cannot say education is a legal requirement, but then ban groups of children from recieving an education. Or shouldn't..IMO. But I can see where its coming from..at the same time. Odd topic for me, one of those where I half have splinters in my arse from the fencesitting!

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I would think the vast majority of kids are vaccinated.

I think theres a significant minority that aren't though, and given online presence is growing, and with it the group of people who seem to get their news from social media and the likes (part of the reason for the brexit vote I think, given you mentioned it ) the amount of people who chose not to vaccinate based on internet scare stories will be growing too.

I think most parents will fall inbetween the 'you are literally killing thousands of people by not vaccinating!!!!!1' and 'vaccinating my child will cause instant death, I read it on facebook so its gospel' types. And luckily, I reckon the middle ground group will mainly all go for vaccinating based on rational risk analysis..but it is quite worrying that the social media news group is growing.

Probably makes me fall a litte closer to 'omg, murderer' type group for even talking about other parents in this..dismissive way. It doesn't really help and will never convince others to go for vaccination if they do believe all the scare stories. Mind, I honestly don't think that any rational speech would affect them or make them stop catastrophizing to be quite honest.

I don't know what the answer is really. But...this does not do it for me, for the main reason of..you cannot say education is a legal requirement, but then ban groups of children from recieving an education. Or shouldn't..IMO. But I can see where its coming from..at the same time. Odd topic for me, one of those where I half have splinters in my arse from the fencesitting!

Nothing wrong in being cautious Vicky.

Thank you for all that insight to your thinking.
As a Parent you will know what you want and is best for you.

Thanks again.

[Twosugars]

In this day and age experts and science are unpopular.

Second middle ages coming?

[Ammi]

...a spokesperson from the Conservative party ... “We’re not at the stage of refusing admission. Our priority is on increasing vaccination numbers, and I’ve set out some of the things that we’re doing.”

...I still can’t see how the ban could be implemented when it’s a legal requirement for a child to attend school...it’s also been this government’s aim to ensure all state schools become academies, which many are now...so what state schools will there be anyway, to look at non-vaccination bans...it just all feels like a distraction to me...’oh, look at the anti-vaxxers..!!!...let’s talk about that...’...a little focus away from our lack of dedication to the NHS ...maybe ban the anti-NHS people from parliament, would be more the thing...

[arista]

"I still can’t see how the ban could be implemented when it’s a legal requirement for a child to attend school."

Except a Child that has Not been Vaccinated.


They will change it

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by arista

"I still can’t see how the ban could be implemented when it’s a legal requirement for a child to attend school."

Except a Child that has Not been Vaccinated.


They will change it

That's a potential health AND education minefield though because - as I think someone said earlier in the thread - if a parent doesn't want to bother with their child's education, simply refusing to vaccinate will mean they have an "attendance loophole". So you have the kids falling through the cracks in terms of vaccination AND education.

My view on this (I'm sure you'll all be surprised to hear) remains unchanged; consent under duress is not consent, and government being handed the power to make health interventions mandatory is just another step towards a really chilling political future.

I sincerely HOPE that when Hancock starts asking medical experts about "how this would be implemented", a decent number of the doctors do talk to him about informed consent and just how ****ing important it is. This debate (not just here, everywhere) has demonstrated to me that Joe Public really has no idea how important it is, but I hold out a slight (probably naive) hope that doctors do know.

[Cherie]

I worked in a school for special needs for 8 years, we were routinely offered the flu jab each year, I always declined but some co-workers were worried they would be penalised if they declined and then got sick, obviously this wouldn't have been an issue but they felt obliged to take it, some people reacted badly to it, I can only imagine the worry if you were a parent and your first child had an allergic reaction to the jabs given and you were the forced to vaccinate subsequent children. It should be parental choice, most parents look at the pros and cons and take it up because no one wants to see their children get illnesses needlessly, I think the uptake in the UK is 90 per cent, down from 91, obviously if it continues to fall then I think an advertising campaign in the first instance might do the trick, banning kids from school etc is like taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut

[Ammi]

...interesting that there are already vaccination shortages../...indefinite delays to some scheduled vaccinations...so this is something that this government is prioritising...?....while giving no thought/..application to the availability... crazzzy people...