[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Alf

Give me the rock solid proof of that and I'll agree with you. Otherwise, your opinion doesn't trump their freedom.

If the word of leading scientists around the world telling you the same thing isn't enough to convince you, then nothing will.

[Alf]

I understand your points, and I know it's a fearful time for us all, in our different ways. But people have got to do what they've got to do.

These protesters arne:t there because they want to be, they're there because they have great concern.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

If the word of leading scientists around the world telling you the same thing isn't enough to convince you, then nothing will.

Dezzy, there are loads of leading scientists around the World saying differently too. Are they enough to convince you? Well ditto.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Alf

Dezzy, there are loads of leading scientists around the World saying differently too. Are they enough to convince you? Well ditto.

Except, I'm talking about actual scientists that, you know, exist? Not hypothetical ones to bolster an insane anti-science argument. My guess is that any scientists you're referring to are works of fiction or hacks that are appealing to the conspiracy loons' gullibility.

Pretty much every scientific mind worth their salt has said the same thing, you're ignoring the majority to focus on a non-existent example because the idea of it is more appealing.

You are free to do that, but I prefer to live in the real world.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Except, I'm talking about actual scientists that, you know, exist? Not hypothetical ones to bolster an insane anti-science argument. My guess is that any scientists you're referring to are works of fiction or hacks that are appealing to the conspiracy loons' gullibility.

Pretty much every scientific mind worth their salt has said the same thing, you're ignoring the majority to focus on a non-existent example because the idea of it is more appealing.

You are free to do that, but I prefer to live in the real world.

Then it comes down to who people put their trust in. I don't remember you last December, campaigning for Boris, and telling us how trustworthy he is. But 11 months later you're willing to give up your freedom on the word of him and his team.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Alf

Then it comes down to who people put their trust in. I don't remember you last December, campaigning for Boris, and telling us how trustworthy he is. But 11 months later you're willing to give up your freedom on the word of him and his team.

people arent adhering to guidelines because of Boris, they are doing it because they want to stay safe and well and also have consideration for those around them

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Alf

Dezzy, there are loads of leading scientists around the World saying differently too. Are they enough to convince you? Well ditto.

Who, do you have some links?

[Alf]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

people arent adhering to guidelines because of Boris, they are doing it because they want to stay safe and well and also have consideration for those around them

I don't see you showing much consideration for those who's livelihoods are being destroyed. Or those people commiting suicide from depression,. Or those who can't see their loved ones and can't send them off at a funeral. It does look more like you are the one who only cares about the self and your safety.

The generations that came before us, sacrificed their lives for freedom. This generation is sacrificing its freedom on the hope it saves lives.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Who, do you have some links?

There's lots out there Oliver, have a research. I can't be bothered at the moment. But I will when I can be bothered, maybe tomorrow, if you haven't found anything. I've had a couple of beers and I'm not in the mood for searching for it.

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Alf

I don't see you showing much consideration for those who's livelihoods are being destroyed. Or those people commuting suicide from depression,. Or those who can't see their loved ones and can't send them off at a funeral. It does look more like you are the one who only cares about the self and your safety.

The generations that came before us, sacrificed their lives for freedom. This generation is sacrificing its freedom on the hope it saves lives.

So people can die as long as other people can go out?

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Glenn.

So people can die as long as other people can go out?

I don't know what you mean? but I don't believe that's what I said.

[Elliot]

I’m screaming there’s no debate being had within science the consensus is there. Choosing not to believe it is of your own ignorant volition..

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Elliot

I’m screaming there’s no debate being had within science the consensus is there. Choosing not to believe it is of your own ignorant volition..

You're entitled to that opinion, and other people are entitled to their's. What can you do?

[Alf]

Can anyone confirm that the survival rate from being infected with Covid is 99%. That's just a number I've seen, I don't know how accurate that is. But if it is accurate, then is crashing the economy and prohibiting people of their freedom the correct action?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Alf

Can anyone confirm that the survival rate from being infected with Covid is 99%. That's just a number I've seen, I don't know how accurate that is. But if it is accurate, then is crashing the economy and prohibiting people of their freedom the correct action?

It’s around that but the survival rate isn’t the issue, if you let it rip through the population unchecked, hospitals just won’t be able to cope, ICU will be full of Covids on ventilators and if you or you Ma needs ICU care you can kiss goodbye to that

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

Can anyone confirm that the survival rate from being infected with Covid is 99%. That's just a number I've seen, I don't know how accurate that is. But if it is accurate, then is crashing the economy and prohibiting people of their freedom the correct action?

Like Cherie says above its a bit more complicated than that because the strain on health services will cost lives (not just Covid deaths; deaths from all causes).

Also 1% is overall and you have to remember that under 25 the death rate is effectively 0% (not zero deaths but a miniscule proportion) and goes up with age; its probably 5%+ in 60 year olds and if you go up to 80 year olds it's as high as 20%.

So it's not as simple as saying "you have a 99% chance of survival" - it's not random, it depends on your age and health. If you're a fit 20 year old you have a 99.99% chance of survival. If you're a fat 70 year old you're probably in trouble.

A lot of the people protesting look to be in their 50's and have nowhere near 99% survival rate.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Alf

Then it comes down to who people put their trust in. I don't remember you last December, campaigning for Boris, and telling us how trustworthy he is. But 11 months later you're willing to give up your freedom on the word of him and his team.

Who gives a **** about Boris? This is about science and facts and nothing more. Both of which laugh in the face of these maskless morons.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Alf

I don't see you showing much consideration for those who's livelihoods are being destroyed. Or those people commiting suicide from depression,. Or those who can't see their loved ones and can't send them off at a funeral. It does look more like you are the one who only cares about the self and your safety.

The generations that came before us, sacrificed their lives for freedom. This generation is sacrificing its freedom on the hope it saves lives.

Trying to use people who sacrificed their lives to defend our rights and freedoms to argue for people having the right to infect others is just as disgusting as the first time you tried that argument.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Trying to use people who sacrificed their lives to defend our rights and freedoms to argue for people having the right to infect others is just as disgusting as the first time you tried that argument.

I'm disgusting, but you're the one who called those protesters with genuine concerns for
their future as nothing more than "Gammon"

You've got no arguments, your arguments is just insulting people, always. Telling everybody how horrible people are, and how better you are than them.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Who gives a **** about Boris? This is about science and facts and nothing more. Both of which laugh in the face of these maskless morons.

See?

"Maskless morons"

All your arguments are just insults of people.

[Elliot]

You are a moron if you don’t wear masks. You’re putting people more vulnerable than yourself at a great risk for literally no reason

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Elliot

You are a moron if you don’t wear masks. You’re putting people more vulnerable than yourself at a great risk for literally no reason

Why, what do masks do?

[Alf]

Youtube video

[Toy Soldier]

Again I think it's about the scale of the freedoms I guess.

Do we need the freedom to pack into stadiums when there's a virus around? No. Do we need the freedom to choose to not wear a mask? No (the argument is ridiculous; we've accepted clothing requirements for hundreds if not thousands of years)

Most other things I'm fine with as a firm suggestion but I start getting a bit uncomfortable with them being enforceable law. E.g. 2m social distancing - everyone should be doing it and conscious of it but do I think the police should cuff anyone who wanders too close to each other in Tesco? No. And again, the restriction of movement within the country is a huge one for me. The SUGGESTION that people try to stay in their own council area and use common sense I am perfectly fine with. The government-mandated legal ban on crossing county borders "except for reasons they say is OK"? Not so much. I find it a stretch too far. Its also simply ludicrous where I live because its a "commuter county" - probably 3/4 people who live here work in Glasgow, Edinburgh or other neighbouring counties which means most people cross county lines on a daily basis anyway - but not for groceries? Other things too, e.g. I live near the edge of a county which means we actually have to travel FURTHER to the nearest supermarket. Also can't take the dog up the coast to a big deserted beach where you don't come within 100m of another human... But instead have to walk the local dog walking routes, passing countless people. A lot of it is arbitrary authoritarianism with no real common sense or science behind it, yet mandated by law. Worrying.

[Elliot]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Again I think it's about the scale of the freedoms I guess.

Do we need the freedom to pack into stadiums when there's a virus around? No. Do we need the freedom to choose to not wear a mask? No (the argument is ridiculous; we've accepted clothing requirements for hundreds if not thousands of years)

Most other things I'm fine with as a firm suggestion but I start getting a bit uncomfortable with them being enforceable law. E.g. 2m social distancing - everyone should be doing it and conscious of it but do I think the police should cuff anyone who wanders too close to each other in Tesco? No. And again, the restriction of movement within the country is a huge one for me. The SUGGESTION that people try to stay in their own council area and use common sense I am perfectly fine with. The government-mandated legal ban on crossing county borders "except for reasons they say is OK"? Not so much. I find it a stretch too far. Its also simply ludicrous where I live because its a "commuter county" - probably 3/4 people who live here work in Glasgow, Edinburgh or other neighbouring counties which means most people cross county lines on a daily basis anyway - but not for groceries? Other things too, e.g. I live near the edge of a county which means we actually have to travel FURTHER to the nearest supermarket. Also can't take the dog up the coast to a big deserted beach where you don't come within 100m of another human... But instead have to walk the local dog walking routes, passing countless people. A lot of it is arbitrary authoritarianism with no real common sense or science behind it, yet mandated by law. Worrying.

Yes this is exactly how I feel. I have pretty bad asthma and I have zero issues wearing masks. It’s so insensitive, irresponsible and entitled to see people be so contrary to something so harmless when there’s other aspects about lockdown that are actually setting a worrying precedent