[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Horrible, but let’s keep it in perspective, it’s a 12 year old, so maybe let’s wait and see what the story is before we hang him out to dry

Originally Posted by Cherie

I wasn’t ‘fine’ with it at all ...I just wasn’t having a hysterical reaction, same here

Btw I don’t have an issue with him being arrested, however in the previous case, you thought the police were heavy handed, even though someone was stabbed, now an arrest is perfectly fine? I will wait for the full story before. I fully judge him, he could have special needs or be easily influenced by others or he could be a horrible twat from a horrible family we don’t know enough yet

Have you considered they may have arrested the wrong family member Girth?

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Its not plain at all. Hence my confusion.

Please tell me which parts of those two posts you struggled with

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Please tell me which parts of those two posts you struggled with

Its not just one thread.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Its not just one thread.

oh please! we are talking about this specific thread, don't move the goalposts, I see you have no issue understanding Niamh's or TS's posts who are essentially making the same point I did earlier...farce!

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Cherie

oh please! we are talking about this specific thread, don't move the goalposts, I see you have no issue with Niamh or TS who are essentially making the same point I did earlier...farce!

And as usual you bring others into it. Not today Cherie.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

And as usual you bring others into it. Not today Cherie.

You can't answer the question Girth, my posts have been clear, so looks like you like a bit of trolling?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Lots of comments regarding re-education. Would that be for just the child or the whole family, as we seem to have a consensus that this child may not be fully responsible. If the attitudes are so ingrained in the child then how would that help if they are still growing up in a toxic environment?

Because it shows them an alternative viewpoint at an early stage so that when they are old enough to start forming their own thoughts and opinions rather than just parroting their parents, they're more likely to actually give these things some thought and diverge from their parents attitudes. Plenty of people who were raised in families with shocking beliefs grow up not sharing, and even vocally rejecting, those beliefs. That's usually because they've had SOME alternate input in those formative years that has gotten at least a foothold (friends, parents of friends, an aunt or uncle who is very different to their parents, etc.). The spark of a different way of thinking can be enough when it comes to those introspective years. Even if they still largely mirror their parents attitudes when they're young.

Punishing, persecuting and shaming on the other hand results in bitterness and rejection of those alternate views and just makes it more likely that they'll be carbon-copies as adults.

Originally Posted by GiRTh

for this incident we must talk about more than re-education

Why? You've yet to give one reason at all, let alone a good one.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

And my point is re-education for the whole family will never happen or be met with a great deal of resistance. Cant see his family saying 'Yeah we're horribly racist but we're gonna stop now we've been caught.

The child has a few decisions to make in the next few years so good luck to him but for this incident we must talk about more than re-education

I know, I know. It's a really horrible situation and really saddening when you see a child that age come out with such ugly words and such disrespect for another person who absolutely doesn't deserve it. I just think at that age parents should be held accountable as well as the child

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Because it shows them an alternative viewpoint at an early stage so that when they are old enough to start forming their own thoughts and opinions rather than just parroting their parents, they're more likely to actually give these things some thought and diverge from their parents attitudes. Plenty of people who were raised in families with shocking beliefs grow up not sharing, and even vocally rejecting, those beliefs. That's usually because they've had SOME alternate input in those formative years that has gotten at least a foothold (friends, parents of friends, an aunt or uncle who is very different to their parents, etc.). The spark of a different way of thinking can be enough when it comes to those introspective years. Even if they still largely mirror their parents attitudes when they're young.

Punishing, persecuting and shaming on the other hand results in bitterness and rejection of those alternate views and just makes it more likely that they'll be carbon-copies as adults.



Why? You've yet to give one reason at all, let alone a good one.

We must talk about more than re-education because the resources are just not there for someone so young and who appears to be so far ingrained. Also, if the motivation for this re-education comes due to this incident then I doubt it’ll work. The most racist person I ever met was not a crusty old geezer but a teenager who genuinely had abhorrent thoughts about minorities that he’d heard from just one family member all his life., The other members of his family were fine but he was strangely drawn to his sick uncle who hated everyone. What do we do in that case? Who do we educate? That guy was 15 BTW. Last I heard he was in prison.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I know, I know. It's a really horrible situation and really saddening when you see a child that age come out with such ugly words and such disrespect for another person who absolutely doesn't deserve it. I just think at that age parents should be held accountable as well as the child

Totally agree.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Cherie

You can't answer the question Girth, my posts have been clear, so looks like you like a bit of trolling?

I pointed out an inconsistency with a point you made about another teenager. Theres no trolling you have been inconsistent.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

We must talk about more than re-education because the resources are just not there for someone so young and who appears to be so far ingrained. Also, if the motivation for this re-education comes due to this incident then I doubt it’ll work. The most racist person I ever met was not a crusty old geezer but a teenager who genuinely had abhorrent thoughts about minorities that he’d heard from just one family member all his life., The other members of his family were fine but he was strangely drawn to his sick uncle who hated everyone. What do we do in that case? Who do we educate? That guy was 15 BTW. Last I heard he was in prison.

I see what you're saying to an extent although I sort of disagree with the excample; if the other family members were allowing a child to spend enough time with a hateful family member to pick up and copy his hatefulness, then they were not "fine" at all, they were complicit. They might not have expressed or shared the views, but they clearly didn't care enough to keep him away from it.

I think it's also worth pointing out that most of the worst racism I've heard came from teenagers too - mostly trying to be controversial, mostly attention-seeking - and the vast majority didn't grow up to be racist adults in the slightest.

I've also sadly encountered through 10 years in a bookies, a whole host of adult racists, ranging from the throwaway-casual to the deep rooted and hateful. It's different.

Anyway - I'm still at a loss as to what you're suggesting. You have two options really - attempt at compassionate education, or punishment. Education MIGHT not work but has a decent chance of at least mitigating the worst of it, for many kids. Punishment simply will not work. People don't stop holding racist views because of the threat of punishment or shaming. Some MIGHT stop airing those views, at least publicly. Most not even that. The worst case scenario is that it compounds it and generates sympathy for racist attitudes - we surely have AMPLE evidence that that is the case, at this point.

If you have an option #3 other than education or punishment, then that would be worth discussing. I'm just not convinced that "someone somewhere has to come up with something better!" is really much of an argument.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

I pointed out an inconsistency with a point you made about another teenager. Theres no trolling you have been inconsistent.

No I haven't I have explained myself very clearly, where is the inconsistency if I agree with both arrests?

[GiRTh]

The carrot or the stick is a difficult decision for any child.

In the case I mentioned the family shut the racist uncle down when he talked but the kid was drawn to him. Other than cutting him off from the uncle he loved not much they could have done. Not much can be done so maybe a spell inside a bit earlier might have done him good. Who knows? Obviously everyone is different but to just say ‘Lets re-educate’ sounds like a lot of nothing to me.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

The carrot or the stick is a difficult decision for any child.

Only if you know absolutely nothing about child psychology.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Cherie

No I haven't I have explained myself very clearly, where is the inconsistency if I agree with both arrests?

And now you want a tit for tat back and forth. Not today Cherie. You werent talking about 'perspectve' in the other thread.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

And now you want a tit for tat back and forth. Not today Cherie. You werent talking about 'perspectve' in the other thread.

Both were arrested, there was no need for it on the other thread, as it was quickly sorted out that the kid was not involved.....has there been a statement on this yet Girth? No.... so maybe not so clearcut...but keep digging

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

In the case I mentioned the family shut the racist uncle down when he talked but the kid was drawn to him. Other than cutting him off from the uncle he loved not much they could have done.

In my opinion, if an influence on a child is THAT toxic then absolutely yes he should have been taken out of frequent contact with that family member long before it became an issue or he developed an attachment.

maybe a spell inside a bit earlier might have done him good. Who knows?

Literally every study of child incarceration shows that the result is a child (and then adult) who is significantly MORE likely to re-offend and have their views and attitudes compounded by being locked up with, and inevitably making friends with, like-minded people. It's really not a "who knows". This stuff is well studied, but I know it's more fashionable to go with gut feelings than established academic observations. Again... after all... it's 2020.

There are examples of youths being incarcerated and coming out of it for the better. That would be when the incarceration involves large amounts of therapy, training and education and is not punitive.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Only if you know absolutely nothing about child psychology.

Well, it depends what I meant by stick but don’t query that just make a snarky point eh?

Point taken so tell us all, how we ‘re-educate’ a whole family or a family with one racist or an extended family of racists or family who are just told not to mix with other races. Its much more than just saying ‘Lets re-educate’. Re-educate How?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Well, it depends what I meant by stick but don’t query that just make a snarky point eh?

Point taken so tell us all, how we ‘re-educate’ a whole family or a family with one racist or an extended family of racists or family who are just told not to mix with other races. It's much more than just saying ‘Lets re-educate’. Re-educate How?

I don't know what else you could have meant by stick... the "carrot or stick" metaphor is an allegory for "reward or punishment". "Use the stick" means punish, there isn't an alternative meaning.

Also I've been quite clear that it's not about educating the entire family, it's about introducing concepts to the child early to increase the likelihood that they'll have different thoughts and feelings about the issue when they're old enough for real independent critical thought (not 12). We (for good reason) don't take action with "whole families" based on our assumptions about the actions of one family member. If one of those family members does something in future, or if it's shown that they were more involved in this case than they're admitting, then appropriate action should be taken against those family members. If they're adults that may well be completely different to the action you'd take with a 12 year old.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Both were arrested, there was no need for it on the other thread, as it was quickly sorted out that the kid was not involved.....has there been a statement on this yet Girth? No.... so maybe not so clearcut...but keep digging

You’re the one who keeps responding. I said bye bye ages ago. Is this finally bye? Catch up with you next time you comment on these issues.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't know what else you could have meant by stick... the "carrot or stick" metaphor is an allegory for "reward or punishment". "Use the stick" means punish, there isn't an alternative meaning.

Also I've been quite clear that it's not about educating the entire family, it's about introducing concepts to the child early to increase the likelihood that they'll have different thoughts and feelings about the issue when they're old enough for real independent critical thought (not 12). We (for good reason) don't take action with "whole families" based on our assumptions about the actions of one family member. If one of those family members does something in future, or if it's shown that they were more involved in this case than they're admitting, then appropriate action should be taken against those family members. If they're adults that may well be completely different to the action you'd take with a 12 year old.

What if you get a teenager who insists on hanging out with his racist uncle. How do you stop him? Still on the same case BTW. How do you tell someone that their beloved uncle is a wrong un? You make it sound easy trust me it aint. Particularly when you meet someone who thinks the racist uncle isn’t all that bad, considering al things etc and is basically twisting themselves into knots to justify his behaviour and language. Is it as easy as you make it sound? Not in my expereince
Your ideas are sound in theory but suggestion in some of the people I’ve seen simply wont do it all. And I’m not talking about 30 years old either. Teenagers and mid twenties

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

You’re the one who keeps responding. I said bye bye ages ago. Is this finally bye? Catch up with you next time you comment on these issues.

oh you said goodbye so we are done? little lady can go hush now, you are finished with her...I don't think so

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

What if you get a teenager who insists on hanging out with his racist uncle. How do you stop him? Still on the same case BTW. How do you tell someone that their beloved uncle is a wrong un? You make it sound easy trust me it aint. Particularly when you meet someone who thinks the racist uncle isn’t all that bad, considering al things etc and is basically twisting themselves into knots to justify his behaviour and language. Is it as easy as you make it sound? Not in my expereince
Your ideas are sound in theory but suggestion in some of the people I’ve seen simply wont do it all. And I’m not talking about 30 years old either. Teenagers and mid twenties

I didn't intend to make it sound easy, parenting (well) isn't easy at all, and I'm very aware that an awful lot of people don't have the inclination (or sometimes the energy) to do it. That's really a separate and MUCH more involved debate, but I doubt it's one that would end with me thinking that the answer is punishing the children involved.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Cherie

oh you said goodbye so we are done? little lady can go hush now, you are finished with her...I don't think so

Read whatever you want into it. Made my point which is – You showed an inconsistency with how another teenager was treated. As I pointed out you weren’t talking about perspective in the other thread. This will without doubt be my last reply as I’ve said I aint getting into a silly back and forth. You can even insult me in your inevitable reply to this post but I won’t reply. See ya next time.

[Cherie]

I have seen what was written now and it looks like something a 12 year old would write rather than an adult

His message comes after Zaha was the subject of vile racist messages before his game with Villa on Sunday.

In two messages, Zaha was told 'you better not score tomorrow you black *******' before the poster added 'or I'll come to your house dressed as a ghost.'

The poster, who later posted an apology to Zaha in a caption of a photo of Aston Villa players taking a knee, also sent an picture of a Ku Klux Klan gathering, to underline the threat, and another displaying an edited version of a box of cornflakes, instead carrying the words '*******flakes' and displaying a man with his face blacked up.

West Midlands Police confirmed a 12-year-old from Solihull has been arrested as part of their investigation.

The Premier League are looking into the incident as part of their discriminatory abuse system.

In response to the arrest, the PFA said: 'The posts sent to @wilfriedzaha ahead of today's game were sickening and abhorrent. Players continue to be the target of relentless abuse online.