[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

So she must grow up and learn to get over herself and be courteous of others but the transwomen mustn't be triggered because their life experiences are more important?

No.

It looks like women have had it too good, it's time we sat down and shut up

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Cherie

It looks like women have had it too good, it's time we sat down and shut up

Women don't even deserve a name, they're simply referred to by their biological functions, apparently!

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Women don't even deserve a name, they're simply referred to by their biological functions, apparently!

yes! Gilead has nothing on this!

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Cherie

yes! Gilead has nothing on this!

I wonder if people trying to tell women what to call themselves and to allow males into their spaces consider themselves feminists

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

So an entire gender have to avoid using words that refer to the reality of their biological sex because a small minority of people wish to ignore reality?

If it’s specific to things that involves women and transmen, it would save a hell of a lot of time to use a word or phrase that includes them both

Off the top of my head I can’t think of any other time this would be needed

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Oh right, so now my whole generation is somehow less tolerant? And this generation will have a 'realisation' that their needs have to come secondary? And they're perfectly fine with that. Ok

Well obviously as a whole, generations are becoming more tolerant? That’s not new. This has been going on for hundreds of years and will continue for a couple hundred more.

[Jessica.]

I'd prefer to erase the word "woman" entirely than to erase transgender identities. Not everyone who menstruates is a woman and it can hurt to see branding make it seem like they don't exist. Call me a person and not a woman if it makes life easier for an already marginalised community.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

I'd prefer to erase the word "woman" entirely than to erase transgender identities. Not everyone who menstruates is a woman and it can hurt to see branding make it seem like they don't exist. Call me a person and not a woman if it makes life easier for an already marginalised community.

Good idea.

The population can be made up of men and everyone else in the "other" category.

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Good idea.



The population can be made up of men and everyone else in the "other" category.

Or just "people" duh

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

Or just "people" duh

Doesn't really help.

Is the answer to racism just to remove all indications of difference between skin colours, language and culture? No, because you'd be invalidating people's identity.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

Or just "people" duh

No one would be in the wrong body then? they would just be a person, and couldn't transition to be another person

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

No one would be in the wrong body then? they would just be a person, and couldn't transition to be another person

Yep by erasing individual identity and all the markers of those individuals you completely invalidate the trans journey, which is counter productive.

Fake progress.

[Liam-]

And what’s progressive about certain women clearly not wanting transgender people to be recognised as who they are and want the rights they already have to be stripped away, to suit them and their feelings?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

Or just "people" duh

This is a broken circular logic; if it's "just people" then there is no such thing as a trans man. If there are no men or women, just people, then the entire concept of transgenderism is meaningless and there is no marginalized community to protect. A marginalised community of... who? Transmen and transwomen? How can you be a trans-version of something that doesn't exist? How can someone argue that they were born biologically male but "knowing instinctually" that they were in fact a woman, whilst simultaneously arguing that there is no such thing?

Frankly this is why the entire concept of transgenderism is in SERIOUS need of some proper, robust, academic sociological/anthropological study. It's currently a bizarre, illogical mess of contradictions... and yet, there's also a huge pushback around anyone being allowed to have those desperately needed conversations. So it's not going to get any better. If anything it's an area that's continuously fragmenting into ever-smaller subcultures of "lived experience" nonsense.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

And what’s progressive about certain women clearly not wanting transgender people to be recognised as who they are and want the rights they already have to be stripped away, to suit them and their feelings?

You're passing judgement on a group (women) who have only had vague rights of their own for a generation or two and telling them to sit down, calm down and "everything will be fine". Also - to be frank - the VAST majority of the people I see doing it are either cis-men or trans-women (people born biologically male). 21st century flavours of the same ol' 19th century story. If you can't see how that's problematic then I don't think you really have much scope in telling others what is and isn't.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You're passing judgement on a group (women) who have only had vague rights of their own for a generation or two and telling them to sit down, calm down and "everything will be fine". Also - to be frank - the VAST majority of the people I see doing it are either cis-men or trans-women (people born biologically male). 21st century flavours of the same ol' 19th century story. If you can't see how that's problematic then I don't think you really have much scope in telling others what is and isn't.

I’m not telling anyone to sit down and shut up actually, what’s the point in a debate if it’s obvious that people don’t feel that their opinions can be challenged because it’s coming from women? That’s not how life works, speaking as a gay man who’s demographic is also still facing rights based challenges, you’re doing exactly what you’ve just accused me of doing,

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

And what’s progressive about certain women clearly not wanting transgender people to be recognised as who they are and want the rights they already have to be stripped away, to suit them and their feelings?

Nope. Wanting women to retain words that describe them is not wanting to "strip rights" away from anyone.

It's a ridiculous changing of the goalposts used by extreme trans activists.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Nope. Wanting women to retain words that describe them is not wanting to "strip rights" away from anyone.

It's a ridiculous changing of the goalposts used by extreme trans activists.

There are women out there that are taking it further than wanting to ‘protect their pronoun’, they want to strip transpeople of their rights to use the same bathrooms as them for example, a right they already have, you mention the ‘extreme trans activists’ a lot, but there are people out there actively wanting to discriminate against the trans community

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

There are women out there that are taking it further than wanting to ‘protect their pronoun’, they want to strip transpeople of their rights to use the same bathrooms as them for example, a right they already have, you mention the ‘extreme trans activists’ a lot, but there are people out there actively wanting to discriminate against the trans community

I do mention extreme trans activists who are hijacking genuine trans causes and taking them to the point where it helps no one, least of all trans people. Like I said, it's fake progress.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Liam-

There are women out there that are taking it further than wanting to ‘protect their pronoun’, they want to strip transpeople of their rights to use the same bathrooms as them for example, a right they already have, you mention the ‘extreme trans activists’ a lot, but there are people out there actively wanting to discriminate against the trans community

Whether or not it's "reasonable", it's not extreme for women to want their single-sex spaces to be maintained.

[Liam-]

Just think of the uproar if straight men turned around and demanded gay men use seperate public toilets because they ‘felt uncomfortable’ or white people demanded white only spaces because they’re scared of being attacked by black people, I don’t see this situation as any different to either of those scenarios.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

I'd prefer to erase the word "woman" entirely than to erase transgender identities. Not everyone who menstruates is a woman and it can hurt to see branding make it seem like they don't exist. Call me a person and not a woman if it makes life easier for an already marginalised community.

So you don't think transgendered people consider themselves men or women?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Withano

Well obviously as a whole, generations are becoming more tolerant? That’s not new. This has been going on for hundreds of years and will continue for a couple hundred more.

You don't seem very tolerant of my views...what generation are you?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I’m not telling anyone to sit down and shut up actually, what’s the point in a debate if it’s obvious that people don’t feel that their opinions can be challenged because it’s coming from women? That’s not how life works, speaking as a gay man who’s demographic is also still facing rights based challenges, you’re doing exactly what you’ve just accused me of doing,

No, because I'm not telling women how they should or shouldn't feel about the erosion of their rights and identity (either perceived or real, doesn't really matter) I'm just listening to and accepting/understanding how many women feel about this issue, and noting that a lot of those who are calling them out (and calling them names) for that are people who were born male; be they now cis males of whichever sexuality or transwomen.

I suspect however that, as a member of a group that has some very recent hard-fought rights and as you say, you would perhaps be a little less comfortable with it if you felt like any of those right or any aspects of that identity - which were a LONG time coming, just as they were for women - were the ones that were being asked to "make space". I don't know, ai can't speak for you there.

Other than that I have no idea how you being a gay cis male means you have more agency in talking about this than I do as a straight male? I mean if we're going to get right down to splitting hairs, as a gay male this is an issue that really has nothing AT ALL to do with you, you have far fewer chips on the table when it comes to how it affects women, whereas as someone with a female partner and two female children, how these things affect women actually have a fairly direct affect on things that are very close to home. Thus your focus is heavily biased towards "ally-related-thinking" which is fairly evident as you have a heavy focus on talking about marginalised groups and minorities. I feel that women get less sympathy on this issue than they should because they aren't one.

Originally Posted by Liam-

There are women out there that are taking it further than wanting to ‘protect their pronoun’, they want to strip transpeople of their rights to use the same bathrooms as them for example, a right they already have, you mention the ‘extreme trans activists’ a lot, but there are people out there actively wanting to discriminate against the trans community

"Woman"/"Women" isn't a pronoun, it's a non-specific noun (singular/plural), and has nothing to do with pronouns, nor the preferred pronoun debate.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Just think of the uproar if straight men turned around and demanded gay men use seperate public toilets because they ‘felt uncomfortable’ or white people demanded white only spaces because they’re scared of being attacked by black people, I don’t see this situation as any different to either of those scenarios.

Look at you parading a succession of straw men around, none of those things bear any relevance whatsoever to this discussion.