[Cherie]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

"Not as catastrophic as it could have been" doesn't work quite as well on the side of a bus. The greatest con ever pulled on the nation, that will cost us for decades to come until we rejoin..

Honestly as a remainer I think we just need to move on now, it’s done and can probably be undone in a few years, feels pretty pointless to argue about it, the grass was greener for 52% and I am sure for some it will be, there will be winners and losers in this brave be world

Bojo is off to India in the NY I would say free movement of people might be on the cards in any trade deal

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Honestly as a remainer I think we just need to move on now, it’s done and can probably be undone in a few years, feels pretty pointless to argue about it, the grass was greener for 52% and I am sure for some it will be, there will be winners and losers in this brave be world

Bojo is off to India in the NY I would say free movement of people might be on the cards in any trade deal

Just pointing out the actual facts, not the made up ones. Promised the world, and delivered less than catastrophe. Also a lot of revisionism in here about the fact Boris tried to illegally shut down parliament last year to force us out on a no deal. Ironically, I think covid and the mess our economy is in from that, is the only reason why we even have this deal at all. I didn't start this thread, but I can address the misinformation.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

"Not as catastrophic as it could have been" doesn't work quite as well on the side of a bus. The greatest con ever pulled on the nation, that will cost us for decades to come until we rejoin..

since the 1970's it's been pretty much a 50/50 split with the common market onward, so it's anything but a con, people just got the opportunity to express what they wanted. It has never been any different. Like I said, i wanted to remain, but i'm not unhappy with the deal as it is now

[Rob!]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

"Not as catastrophic as it could have been" doesn't work quite as well on the side of a bus. The greatest con ever pulled on the nation, that will cost us for decades to come until we rejoin..

Best not mention buses in a thread about Brexit.

[Tom4784]

It's not much different from May's deal by all accounts, everything since then has been pageantry and bluster to appeal to the gullible and easily pleased.

It's a mediocre outcome but better than the one Boris wanted. When it comes to Boris Johnson, mediocrity is the best outcome we can hope for considering how much he's screwed the pooch on everything else. It won't stop Tory supporters from blindly acting like he's the second coming though. It's all quite sad.

[DouglasS]

Looks like the hardcore left cannot even be happy and forget about parties when government have done a great job keeping all parties happy

You know Boris has done a great job though when they say he’s done “mediocre”, that means absolutely fantastic if some people are saying that who will never have anything positive to say. Well done Boris!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by DouglasS

Looks like the hardcore left cannot even be happy and forget about parties when government have done a great job keeping all parties happy

You know Boris has done a great job though when they say he’s done “mediocre”, that means absolutely fantastic if some people are saying that who will never have anything positive to say. Well done Boris!

You may be easily pleased with mediocrity as long as it's coming from your beloved tories, but I expect better from the leadership.

Making excuses for poor leadership is just sad and undignified. A government is supposed to work for the betterment of it's citizens, citizens aren't meant to bend over backwards and lick the boots of those in charge yet tory supporters regularly engage in hero worship of people like Boris when it should be the opposite way around.

It's such a shame that so much of this country is so easily led, so gullible, so foolish. You can't see the forest for the trees, and you never will.

[The Slim Reaper]

In what universe is making us poorer and with fewer rights, a "great deal?"

This deal actually makes sure this is never really over, and the same fights over sovereignty and fish will be fought every couple of years.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by DouglasS

Looks like the hardcore left cannot even be happy and forget about parties when government have done a great job keeping all parties happy

You know Boris has done a great job though when they say he’s done “mediocre”, that means absolutely fantastic if some people are saying that who will never have anything positive to say. Well done Boris!

He’s done absolute ****e

What aspect of life in Britain is better post-brexit than beforehand?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DouglasS

Looks like the hardcore left cannot even be happy and forget about parties when government have done a great job keeping all parties happy

You know Boris has done a great job though when they say he’s done “mediocre”, that means absolutely fantastic if some people are saying that who will never have anything positive to say. Well done Boris!

I say well done to to the EU it's down to them we weren't chowing down to chlorinated turkey!!

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Honestly as a remainer I think we just need to move on now, it’s done and can probably be undone in a few years, feels pretty pointless to argue about it, the grass was greener for 52% and I am sure for some it will be, there will be winners and losers in this brave be world

Bojo is off to India in the NY I would say free movement of people might be on the cards in any trade deal

I seem to remember saying this in 2015..

We're going back to our colonialist roots, bring people here to work with limited rights and when they've served their purpose back they go.

That was how Windrush was meant to go if it weren't for the pesky rights of children. They'll be none of those now.

[DouglasS]

Originally Posted by Withano

He’s done absolute ****e

What aspect of life in Britain is better post-brexit than beforehand?

It was the public who voted brexit.. you can’t blame him for fulfilling democracy.

He has got a deal where we are not stuck to obligations, yet are still able to trade freely. Therefore the fact we still have fantastic trade links and deals with Europe speaks for how much better he has done, preventing a no deal that so many were scared of/ the left were saying was going to happen and how bad it’d be. Now he’s proved the left wrong people have gone back to blaming ‘Brexit’

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by DouglasS

It was the public who voted brexit.. you can’t blame him for fulfilling democracy.

He has got a deal where we are not stuck to obligations, yet are still able to trade freely. Therefore the fact we still have fantastic trade links and deals with Europe speaks for how much better he has done, preventing a no deal that so many were scared of/ the left were saying was going to happen and how bad it’d be. Now he’s proved the left wrong people have gone back to blaming ‘Brexit’

I welcome the no deal scenario gone out the window now but I do believe that Johnson was happy to appease his more hard-line brexiteers with no deal if he could have got away with it.

However I think events have made it that even he has realised, the no deal dream had to be averted.
I personally think that was down to 2 things in the main.

This pandemic and it's effects in the UK and on his own trust level.
Plus the defeat of Trump in the States.
Where Biden was not of the brexit supporting side.

So that and this now worrying uncertain second wave of the virus has made it that a major push had to be done in the end to secure some deal.

I would and do support any deal over no deal.
Johnson and his harder line brexiteers would have been happy with that outcome of no deal.
My view on him and that hasn't changed at all.

His hand was forced again, however proving there was a deal to be done.
Which should never have taken to this last almost minute of time.
Plus for me, no deal should never have ever been talked of, never mind nearly allowed to happen.

So on this u turn by him, I do congratulate him.
He hasn't pleased his harder line brexiteers, so I congratulate him on that too.
So for me this deal needs to be supported and implemented.

There's a lot of wording in it and scrutinising it won't be easy in the time left.
However for me again too, the EU are happy with it and for my sins, I trust the EU more than our own UK government.

I have many other reasons and personal ones too for neither liking or trusting Johnson and his Ministers.

At last on brexit however, he has secured and agreed a deal with the EU.
For which I do congratulate the government and the EU on.
Because for me, no deal was one of the worst, and most ugly wording and threat to come out of the whole brexit scenario.

So I'm glad those harder line Con MP who were
supporters of that, and the hard line former Labour MPs like Gisela Stuart, haven't and now are never going to get their no deal hope realised.

So yes, I hope this deal is passed with a massive majority which I think it will.
With a strong majority of Labour MPs backing it too.
Rightly so too when the only alternative to this would be a disastrous no deal.

[Tom4784]

Yeah, it was the public that were gullible enough to ignore the facts because some people fed them lies in order to get better tax deals for the rich and to likely, in time, erode worker's rights and health rights.

But seriously, it's the fault of the Tories for not getting a good deal and the public for being dumb enough to set this nightmare into motion and then choosing the worst candidates to handle brexit in the elections that followed.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

At last on brexit however, he has secured and agreed a deal with the EU.
For which I do congratulate the government and the EU on.
Because for me, no deal was one of the worst, and most ugly wording and threat to come out of the whole brexit scenario.

So I'm glad those harder line Con MP who were
supporters of that, and the hard line former Labour MPs like Gisela Stuart, haven't and now are never going to get their no deal hope realised.

So yes, I hope this deal is passed with a massive majority which I think it will.
With a strong majority of Labour MPs backing it too.
Rightly so too when the only alternative to this would be a disastrous no deal.

This is really short sighted, Joey. Firstly, a deal is obviously better than no-deal, but this deal only delays that outcome. There is a 4yr review built into this, so we will have 4 years of hard right campaigning against it. It's a pretty bad deal from our perspective, so it will actually provide the ammunition for that to be a successful long term strategy.

Because it's such a bad deal, any honest opposition shouldn't be anywhere near this. Only folks happy to accept the consequences of this trash should rubber stamp it, and it's another example of starmer having no clue about what he is doing, lurching from pandering to more pandering. The votes to pass this already exist, so why put your fingerprints on a deal that fails the 6 tests for a brexit deal set out by labour?

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by DouglasS

It was the public who voted brexit.. you can’t blame him for fulfilling democracy.

He has got a deal where we are not stuck to obligations, yet are still able to trade freely. Therefore the fact we still have fantastic trade links and deals with Europe speaks for how much better he has done, preventing a no deal that so many were scared of/ the left were saying was going to happen and how bad it’d be. Now he’s proved the left wrong people have gone back to blaming ‘Brexit’

Tbf just because there's a sigh of relief at a no deal Brexit, doesn't mean that people have to still be happy that Brexit has gone ahead.

I mean look at America at the moment, we've a man and his supporters moaning about a result that was far larger in defeat than the neck and neck EU Referendum that was only meant to be advisory initially.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

This is really short sighted, Joey. Firstly, a deal is obviously better than no-deal, but this deal only delays that outcome. There is a 4yr review built into this, so we will have 4 years of hard right campaigning against it. It's a pretty bad deal from our perspective, so it will actually provide the ammunition for that to be a successful long term strategy.

Because it's such a bad deal, any honest opposition shouldn't be anywhere near this. Only folks happy to accept the consequences of this trash should rubber stamp it, and it's another example of starmer having no clue about what he is doing, lurching from pandering to more pandering. The votes to pass this already exist, so why put your fingerprints on a deal that fails the 6 tests for a brexit deal set out by labour?

I agree with you really.

I just feared a no deal scenario.

I'm sure some did but of those I know who voted leave not one was voting for or wanting a no deal scenario

I think it was Cherie who said this could be likely revisited in the future and I do think it will.
As the make up of the voting public changes in all UK Nations

I'm not yet of the view in 2024 that another Party winning a majority in parliament is likely.
However equally, now brexit is settled for a period, I don't believe Johnson and the Cons will get a majority next time either.

So the prospect of no deal is unlikely even in 2025.

With the Pandemic crisis and all that is likely to surface against Johnson, his Ministers and government, I REALLY can't see him being more than the largest party in 2024 at best.

So the review may open up new demands from the electorate too.
Maybe I'm putting too much optimism in play here.
However, brexit, this deal on trade in place now, the issue quietened more if not eradicated.
Then the chaos of the pandemic, I'm not convinced Johnson will even want to be around to fight the 2024 election.

It's not the deal Starmer wanted, or Labour however to just oppose it leaving the chance of no deal being the scenario would leave Labour and Starmer really isolated in my view.
Even to voters with absolutely no credibility.

Everyone I've spoken to who supported Labour last year.
Never wanted no deal.
To see the leader and party voting this deal down then leaving only no deal left in place.

I wouldn't like to think what those supporters would think at that.
Myself too Slim, I'd have been stunned had Starmer decided to vote against this deal and left us with no deal.
Starmer isn't my idea of the best leader for Labour.
However I can't see that he could or should do anything else rather than vote this bill through.

Longer term this leaves a way back which no deal wouldn't likely have as to closer ties again.

I'd rather not have left at all definitely.
I still hope for the opportunity to arise to return too.

[bitontheslide]

most people won't give a crap about the trade deal. When the supermarket prices remain the same, when the price on amazon remains the same, when goods are in ready supply and demand, people will be quite happy. The only noticeable difference will be having to queue in the non EU section of the airport. Most political parties understand that the relationship with the EU is a toxic subject, they wont touch it with a barge pole, not after the last 4 years. If labour have any sense at all they will leave any discussion of the EU firmly behind them at the next election

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I agree with you really.

I just feared a no deal scenario.

I'm sure some did but of those I know who voted leave not one was voting for or wanting a no deal scenario

I think it was Cherie who said this could be likely revisited in the future and I do think it will.
As the make up of the voting public changes in all UK Nations

I'm not yet of the view in 2024 that another Party winning a majority in parliament is likely.
However equally, now brexit is settled for a period, I don't believe Johnson and the Cons will get a majority next time either.

So the prospect of no deal is unlikely even in 2025.

With the Pandemic crisis and all that is likely to surface against Johnson, his Ministers and government, I REALLY can't see him being more than the largest party in 2024 at best.

So the review may open up new demands from the electorate too.
Maybe I'm putting too much optimism in play here.
However, brexit, this deal on trade in place now, the issue quietened more if not eradicated.
Then the chaos of the pandemic, I'm not convinced Johnson will even want to be around to fight the 2024 election.

It's not the deal Starmer wanted, or Labour however to just oppose it leaving the chance of no deal being the scenario would leave Labour and Starmer really isolated in my view.
Even to voters with absolutely no credibility.

Everyone I've spoken to who supported Labour last year.
Never wanted no deal.
To see the leader and party voting this deal down then leaving only no deal left in place.

I wouldn't like to think what those supporters would think at that.
Myself too Slim, I'd have been stunned had Starmer decided to vote against this deal and left us with no deal.
Starmer isn't my idea of the best leader for Labour.
However I can't see that he could or should do anything else rather than vote this bill through.

Longer term this leaves a way back which no deal wouldn't likely have as to closer ties again.

I'd rather not have left at all definitely.
I still hope for the opportunity to arise to return too.

It's not voting for a no-deal though, it would be taking a principled stand (something Starmer knows absolutely nothing about) against a really bad deal. This doesn't need labour vote to pass, so offering them up voluntarily for this really bad piece of legislation is ridiculous, and will remove any opportunity to criticise this government and it's fake victory proclamations surrounding the deal.

Joint ownership of something bad, doesn't make you responsible, it makes you stupid.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

most people won't give a crap about the trade deal. When the supermarket prices remain the same, when the price on amazon remains the same, when goods are in ready supply and demand, people will be quite happy. The only noticeable difference will be having to queue in the non EU section of the airport. Most political parties understand that the relationship with the EU is a toxic subject, they wont touch it with a barge pole, not after the last 4 years. If labour have any sense at all they will leave any discussion of the EU firmly behind them at the next election

If you think this deal won't have any repercussions and consequences beyond a few people queing in an airport, then you're in for a rough ride.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Boris said he would get it done and he did. The GBP like a politician who does what he says.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

If you think this deal won't have any repercussions and consequences beyond a few people queing in an airport, then you're in for a rough ride.

unlike you, i remember life before we joined the EU and everything was perfectly fine. You have a bee in your bonnet about things completely unrelated to trade, and i'm afraid you are just going to have to get used to it or you are going to have a miserable time of it. We are out of the EU, and now is the time we take responsibility for ourselves

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

unlike you, i remember life before we joined the EU and everything was perfectly fine. You have a bee in your bonnet about things completely unrelated to trade, and i'm afraid you are just going to have to get used to it or you are going to have a miserable time of it. We are out of the EU, and now is the time we take responsibility for ourselves

Remembering life before the EU makes you an expert, but someone who looks at the details has a bee in their bonnet? I'm used to it, because I've known all along it's a sham. We've given up and away so much for next to nothing. There is no metric on anything relevant that suggests we will be better off under this deal, which was the main promise.

As an example, we've given up access to the EU crime database which our forces use over a million times each day. Companies and jobs will still leave the island, but of course, it's all about a bee. Absolutely ridiculous post from you bots.

Remain and leave are no more, we're all governed by the same consequences and lies, and to not examine those consequences is how we got here in the first place.

[Toy Soldier]

Comparing "life before the EU" to now is meaningless because globalisation and neoliberalism came post-eu. We could argue until the EU beef comes home about what role the EU plays in that, of course, but it doesn't really matter much - the important thing to point out is that the global economy, and even moreso the British economy, doesn't function in an even remotely similar way today as it did pre-80's so "how stuff was before" is totally irrelevant.

[Toy Soldier]

That said I think it is an important part of Brexit psychology - an idea that leaving the EU means "going back" to how things were before we entered the EU... a complete misconception...