[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Let's not be naive here, there will be some that will exploit any system, that's not saying all will exploit it, just like these catering companies, there are many that followed the rule to the letter but that doesn't stop us from criticising those that haven't, many parents will do the same and there are sadly some that won't, burying that is not helpful to the children involved.

It's not naivety Cherie. Of course some will do that, but plenty of wealthy people have ruined themselves and their families with addictions, too.

It's the hypothetical nature of this discussion that is the most offensive; the inference that they can't be trusted. You're talking about criticising those that haven't followed the rules, but it's all in the abstract and innuendo, not fact.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Let's not be naive here, there will be some that will exploit any system, that's not saying all will exploit it, just like these catering companies, there are many that followed the rule to the letter but that doesn't stop us from criticising those that haven't, many parents will do the same and there are sadly some that won't, burying that is not helpful to the children involved.

The point isn't spending the specific meal money specifically on meals, it's easing the financial burden on already stretched families. Those who are feeding their kids properly will feed their kids properly, those who are not will continue not to, but that is a COMPLETELY separate issue.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

It's not naivety Cherie. Of course some will do that, but plenty of wealthy people have ruined themselves and their families with addictions, too.

It's the hypothetical nature of this discussion that is the most offensive; the inference that they can't be trusted. You're talking about criticising those that haven't followed the rules, but it's all in the abstract and innuendo, not fact.

Alcoholism is rife in the middle-and-upper classes... it's just seen as more socially acceptable to wreck your liver with Merlot than with Smirnoff.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Better we look down in case we start looking up eh?

Exactly. We are one of the most corrupt countries in the world for tax avoidance, and no one is talking about this, instead the government are reducing universal credit and other benefits. Society is really upside down, and when folks in the middle go all out to defend the folks at top rather than those in need of help, then something is seriously wrong.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Exactly. We are one of the most corrupt countries in the world for tax avoidance, and no one is talking about this, instead the government are reducing universal credit and other benefits. Society is really upside down, and when folks in the middle go all out to defend the folks at top rather than those in need of help, then something is seriously wrong.

We're a nation easily led by media, it's why the tabloids have so much power over opinion. When you have the Daily Mail telling you to treat the poor, with disdain when every other C5 documentary is telling you how people on benefits are gaming the system, the gullible will believe it.

Plus we like to think we're better than others, we're an arrogant country so we'll value feeling superior to helping those in need, unless we can feel superior doing so.

[Novo]

not saying the government isn't accountable and they are doing enough because they clearly are not but playing devil's advocate for a minute here - maybe Elite footballers or elite sports stars in general maybe should be doing more in times like this (along with the government doing more) and i say that because not much has changed for them during this, they are still on the same wages, they still get to live their dream whilst the average Joe is abiding by strict laws to stay indoors (which is taking a hit on mental health) and paying more money to watch them on subscription services because they aren't allowed into grounds, you have teams who are travelling across europe to play competitions and even going for breaks in Dubai, (Qualifying for the Australian open tennis tournament is even taking place in dubai right now) and then they get to jet off to Australia and earn 6 and 7 figure sums and of course they are pampered and taken good care off, your average supermarket worker or delivery driver on the other hand not to much.


i have heard so many stories about elite footballers breaking rules in recent months and getting a slap on the wrist for it, could name countless ones in top divisions who have clearly took the luxury they have for granted tbf and i say that as a huge football fan but they take the piss

[arista]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I can’t imagine what’s in those sausages but I doubt they would provide much sustenance for a child...

Pork

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Exactly. We are one of the most corrupt countries in the world for tax avoidance, and no one is talking about this, instead the government are reducing universal credit and other benefits. Society is really upside down, and when folks in the middle go all out to defend the folks at top rather than those in need of help, then something is seriously wrong.

We just have the same issue as America really; people indoctrinated to the cult of individualistic neo-liberal capitalism. Essentially... people like to imagine that one day sometime they will be the ones earning more, and if/when it's them, they don't want to have to give too much back in taxes. It's an age-old con but a very effective one... playing on hope and optimism whilst at the same time keeping people exactly where they are.

[Ammi]

...I think the truth is ....that there is some valid reasoning with some families, to not give vouchers but provide the food parcels instead so that it’s a way to keep vital contact with a family...but it’s ensuring that the whole budget for the food goes to the family and that private companies aren’t profiting hugely, which it would seem they are...it’s a system that needs to be monitored but the important thing is the children and how best to provide what’s more necessary atm...

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

We just have the same issue as America really; people indoctrinated to the cult of individualistic neo-liberal capitalism. Essentially... people like to imagine that one day sometime they will be the ones earning more, and if/when it's them, they don't want to have to give too much back in taxes. It's an age-old con but a very effective one... playing on hope and optimism whilst at the same time keeping people exactly where they are.

I agree, but I think there is a difference between here and the US. Over there, I agree it's the "this will be me one day" syndrome tied in with american exceptionalism and the american dream. Over here, I think it's not as optimistic. I believe over here it's more about branding and aligning with the projected image of successful tories, and also geared to us being prepared to accept worse for ourselves, as long as we still have people who are worse off still. It's the brow-beating us into believing that a better society just isn't possible.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Novo

not saying the government isn't accountable and they are doing enough because they clearly are not but playing devil's advocate for a minute here - maybe Elite footballers or elite sports stars in general maybe should be doing more in times like this (along with the government doing more) and i say that because not much has changed for them during this, they are still on the same wages, they still get to live their dream whilst the average Joe is abiding by strict laws to stay indoors (which is taking a hit on mental health) and paying more money to watch them on subscription services because they aren't allowed into grounds, you have teams who are travelling across europe to play competitions and even going for breaks in Dubai, (Qualifying for the Australian open tennis tournament is even taking place in dubai right now) and then they get to jet off to Australia and earn 6 and 7 figure sums and of course they are pampered and taken good care off, your average supermarket worker or delivery driver on the other hand not to much.


i have heard so many stories about elite footballers breaking rules in recent months and getting a slap on the wrist for it, could name countless ones in top divisions who have clearly took the luxury they have for granted tbf and i say that as a huge football fan but they take the piss

We shouldn't need to make sports stars feed our kids; we need to collect taxes so that we can. Billions wasted on contracts for tory donors during this pandemic.

[Novo]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

We shouldn't need to make sports stars feed our kids; we need to collect taxes so that we can. Billions wasted on contracts for tory donors during this pandemic.

well if they don't follow the same rules as we do then we should be making them feed the kids and making donations, a lot of them clearly abuse the privileges they have as seen by recent events and the suspension of lower leagues, and even apart from that the simple fact they are allowed to travel across the country and still do their dream job whilst others can not is morally questionable imo

they are suppose to set an example at times like this not be drinking beers on the beach in dubai or bringing girls in from across the country to shag, i think a lot of them don't realise how easy they have had it compared to most people during all this tbf

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Novo

well if they don't follow the same rules as we do then we should be making them feed the kids and making donations, a lot of them clearly abuse the privileges they have as seen by recent events and the suspension of lower leagues, and even apart from that the simple fact they are allowed to travel across the country and still do their dream job whilst others can not is morally questionable imo

they are suppose to set an example at times like this not be drinking beers on the beach in dubai or bringing girls in from across the country to shag, i think a lot of them don't realise how easy they have had it compared to most people during all this tbf

Not really. It was only a few months ago, that Jordan Henderson and Harry Maguire got together to coordinate footie players giving more. What you're advocating for there is communism, and whilst I would welcome you as our new Stalin, I doubt the rest of the country would be that open to it!

Why are footballers supposed to set examples and not the people actually running the country?


Good to see you back, by the way.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Novo

not saying the government isn't accountable and they are doing enough because they clearly are not but playing devil's advocate for a minute here - maybe Elite footballers or elite sports stars in general maybe should be doing more in times like this (along with the government doing more) and i say that because not much has changed for them during this, they are still on the same wages, they still get to live their dream whilst the average Joe is abiding by strict laws to stay indoors (which is taking a hit on mental health) and paying more money to watch them on subscription services because they aren't allowed into grounds, you have teams who are travelling across europe to play competitions and even going for breaks in Dubai, (Qualifying for the Australian open tennis tournament is even taking place in dubai right now) and then they get to jet off to Australia and earn 6 and 7 figure sums and of course they are pampered and taken good care off, your average supermarket worker or delivery driver on the other hand not to much.


i have heard so many stories about elite footballers breaking rules in recent months and getting a slap on the wrist for it, could name countless ones in top divisions who have clearly took the luxury they have for granted tbf and i say that as a huge football fan but they take the piss

Yeah, can't argue with any of that really but I think it's more reason why Marus Rashford shouldn't be getting berated when at least he's doing a lot more than most

[Novo]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Not really. It was only a few months ago, that Jordan Henderson and Harry Maguire got together to coordinate footie players giving more. What you're advocating for there is communism, and whilst I would welcome you as our new Stalin, I doubt the rest of the country would be that open to it!

Why are footballers supposed to set examples and not the people actually running the country?


Good to see you back, by the way.

2 footballers players get together to talk about giving more and that solves it? lol, doesn't really wash with me tbf, football fans pay these guys wages ffs they are the ones keeping them in the job year in and year out without the fans the clubs don't exist and the fans are the ones who are suffering the most right now so i can't give a **** about them being all talk and no action whilst being paid 150,000 a week, any rule breaks from them (and lets be fair its happened to much with them) and they should be forced to give up wages to donate, they have the luxury to do that whilst still be able to live the dream

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Novo

2 footballers players get together to talk about giving more and that solves it? lol, doesn't really wash with me tbf, football fans pay these guys wages ffs they are the ones keeping them in the job year in and year out without the fans the clubs don't exist and the fans are the ones who are suffering the most right now so i can't give a **** about them being all talk and no action whilst being paid 150,000 a week, any rule breaks from them (and lets be fair its happened to much with them) and they should be forced to give up wages to donate, they have the luxury to do that whilst still be able to live the dream

No, that's not what I said. Firstly, it shouldn't ever be the responsibility of footballers or any other sports stars to feed our kids. Jacob Rees-Mogg has his company based in a tax haven so he doesn't have to pay taxes here (which feed our kids), and he's part of government. Crack down on tax avoiders, increase tax rates on the uber wealthy and we'll suddenly be in a lot better position. I agree there needs to be some kind of Kyle Walker rule that puts fines into some kind of pandemic pot, but that's nowhere near enough.


Bankers who caused the 2008 financial crisis were never asked to pay for it, instead we're still dealing with the austerity that followed, and yet footballers are supposed to pay for a pandemic?


They did a bit more than talk about it

https://talksport.com/football/69276...uire-nhs-fund/

Premier League stars including Jordan Henderson, Harry Kane and Harry Maguire announce launch of fund to raise millions for NHS during coronavirus pandemic

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I agree, but I think there is a difference between here and the US. Over there, I agree it's the "this will be me one day" syndrome tied in with american exceptionalism and the american dream. Over here, I think it's not as optimistic. I believe over here it's more about branding and aligning with the projected image of successful tories, and also geared to us being prepared to accept worse for ourselves, as long as we still have people who are worse off still. It's the brow-beating us into believing that a better society just isn't possible.

True... I think the UK has always had this huge issue with "working class pride", almost like a twisted form of Stoicism, where working all the hours under the sun to squeak by is actually some sort of moral stance.

An element of "work hard and know your damn place" in contrast to the US's "work hard and anything is possible".

...and I do think the continuation of the monarchy - even as a figurehead - subtly plays into that to a massive extent. The whole core set-up of the UK class hierarchy is that you literally CANNOT reach the top, you're born there or you're not.

[Oliver_W]

I don't have the "it'll be me someday" syndrome -SEN support in public education isn't exactly lucrative!- but I'd sooner see a lot of the fat trimmed from public expenses before tax rises. I don't know how much of the things https://www.promotionalcodes.org.uk/frugal-blog/12468/20-disgusting-wasteful-examples-of-spending-by-the-uk-government/]here still apply, but all this coupled with clamping down on cronyism? That money could go a long way.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I don't have the "it'll be me someday" syndrome -SEN support in public education isn't exactly lucrative!- but I'd sooner see a lot of the fat trimmed from public expenses before tax rises. I don't know how much of the things https://www.promotionalcodes.org.uk/frugal-blog/12468/20-disgusting-wasteful-examples-of-spending-by-the-uk-government/]here still apply, but all this coupled with clamping down on cronyism? That money could go a long way.

I think there are areas that are obviously wasteful - so long as that's in good faith and the cuts are in the vein of increasing efficiency WITHOUT cutting services (You can cut fuel costs for garbage collection? GREAT! You're doing it by cutting the number of collections to one a month? **** off.)

I also think tax doesn't need raising in the "achievable range" and if anything could be cut in a certain range. I'd place that range at the £70k - £120k range which I think IS realistically achievable for many people and I think in an ideal world both the 0% tax range would be extended up to £20k, and the tax bands beyond that would be cut by 5 - 10% per tier up to £120k.

However I'd have that hand-in-hand with a MASSIVE crackdown on tax avoidance in the very-high-income range and on large companies. People on £100k are still, at the end of the day, consumers and that's the vital point. There are areas where money is pooling/stockpiling with a tiny number of individuals and it's just not sustainable.

[Novo]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

No, that's not what I said. Firstly, it shouldn't ever be the responsibility of footballers or any other sports stars to feed our kids. Jacob Rees-Mogg has his company based in a tax haven so he doesn't have to pay taxes here (which feed our kids), and he's part of government. Crack down on tax avoiders, increase tax rates on the uber wealthy and we'll suddenly be in a lot better position. I agree there needs to be some kind of Kyle Walker rule that puts fines into some kind of pandemic pot, but that's nowhere near enough.


Bankers who caused the 2008 financial crisis were never asked to pay for it, instead we're still dealing with the austerity that followed, and yet footballers are supposed to pay for a pandemic?


They did a bit more than talk about it

https://talksport.com/football/69276...uire-nhs-fund/

Premier League stars including Jordan Henderson, Harry Kane and Harry Maguire announce launch of fund to raise millions for NHS during coronavirus pandemic

i never said it should be their responsibility if you read my first post i said the government aren't doing anywhere near enough, however the fans pay the wages of footballlers they keep the clubs ticking so the footballers have a duty to respect the fans and not take the piss and abide by the rules that dear old karen does from #4, they are living the dream and getting paid to do it whilst grasssroots football is called off and people who don't get paid but love playing are suffering, i dunno i'm just really disillusioned with them at the minute maybe i'm being to harsh but i really think they are lucky right now to still be out there, i actually agree 100% with what mark warburton said on the matter


and the same harry maquire who should be in prison for assault? any normal person would be right now for assault but because he is who he is he got let off with a suspended sentence, thats exactly what i mean by the luxuries they have

[rusticgal]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It's a shame that people who are struggling have to listen to attitudes like this all the time

Because there are always a few that spoil it for the rest and abuse the system...

[rusticgal]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's easier to look down on the less fortunate then to admit that most of us are just a few bad days away from being them.

Who is looking down on them

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by rusticgal

Because there are always a few that spoil it for the rest and abuse the system...

A few people abusing the system should not spoil it for the rest, though. Making life harder on 99% out of spite for 1% getting a few £ more than they should be is just unbearably pathetic.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Novo

i never said it should be their responsibility if you read my first post i said the government aren't doing anywhere near enough, however the fans pay the wages of footballlers they keep the clubs ticking so the footballers have a duty to respect the fans and not take the piss and abide by the rules that dear old karen does from #4, they are living the dream and getting paid to do it whilst grasssroots football is called off and people who don't get paid but love playing are suffering, i dunno i'm just really disillusioned with them at the minute maybe i'm being to harsh but i really think they are lucky right now to still be out there, i actually agree 100% with what mark warburton said on the matter


and the same harry maquire who should be in prison for assault? any normal person would be right now for assault but because he is who he is he got let off with a suspended sentence, thats exactly what i mean by the luxuries they have

Loads of people are living the dream on our dime. We're paying for the government to reward their friends that gave them money. There isn't a more fcuked up scenario during this whole pandemic. Contracts worth billions handed out without tender, because someone gave Boris a few hundred grand, or happened to pour Matt Hancock a pint.

Brad Pitt doesn't have a requirement to feed kids either and more people watch his movies than pay Mo salah' wages. I understand the disillusionment and where you're coming from, 100%, I just think it's directed at the wrong people, unless of course all footballers are tax dodgers.

[Novo]

Originally Posted by rusticgal

Because there are always a few that spoil it for the rest and abuse the system...

i wouldn't even say a few i'd say a lot that can get by but abuse it like with food banks and it further punishes the very poor