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Old 19-01-2021, 09:16 AM #51
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Italy is doing well at the moment.
I'm confident I can go on holiday this year.
But I will definitely have the vaccine.
Things will improve here, it will just take time.
no, since even if you are vaccinated, you can still spread the virus onto others
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Old 19-01-2021, 09:19 AM #52
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no, since even if you are vaccinated, you can still spread the virus onto others
I'll get tested if I have to. No worries.
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Old 19-01-2021, 09:19 AM #53
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Italy is doing well at the moment.
I'm confident I can go on holiday this year.
But I will definitely have the vaccine.
Things will improve here, it will just take time.
Oh I agree Vanessa that things will improve over here, but it will be thanks to the Scientists and Doctors more than anything the Tories have done.

And I'm glad that Italy is doing better because they were the first victims outside of China to handle Covid head on.
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Old 19-01-2021, 09:22 AM #54
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no, since even if you are vaccinated, you can still spread the virus onto others
Are you sure that's not some weird anti-Vaccer nonsense Nicky?
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Old 19-01-2021, 09:24 AM #55
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Are you sure that's not some weird anti-Vaccer nonsense Nicky?
no

vaccinating makes yourself immune, but you can still carry the virus and spread it onto others

which is why it is important everyone gets the vaccine (otherwise covid-19 will never really go away)
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Old 19-01-2021, 09:25 AM #56
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Are you sure that's not some weird anti-Vaccer nonsense Nicky?
No that is correct Mock, you can still carry the virus even if vaccinated

the point of vaccination is that you don't develop the disease in a serious way or enough to be hospitalised
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Old 19-01-2021, 09:28 AM #57
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No that is correct Mock, you can still carry the virus even if vaccinated

the point of vaccination is that you don't develop the disease in a serious way or enough to be hospitalised
I was wondering if it would be weak enough to actually not spread to someone else if you got vaccinated.

Thank god I'm not a Scientist.
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Old 19-01-2021, 09:28 AM #58
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Not really because as Dezzy's already said on the thread, first or fifth is an atrocious showing for the UK, especially considering the four countries above us have way bigger populations than us so we may as well be number one on the overall death list.



I'm sorry but either way Toy Soldier's argument doesn't really hold up in this scenario.
I wasn't even arguing that the UK has done well/badly/whatever I just don't like dodgy graphic and stats that are of limited use . I don't think a tiered list that shows a small snapshot of time is particularly useful for knowing how well things have been handled; too easy to manipulate. If the same graph had been posted in August it would have looked like The UK had done amazingly because our deaths per million per day were way down.

I agree that the UK's overall deaths per capita are an obvious indication that we have been hammered hard, especially if you adjust for scale. I think anyone being totally honest knows there are multiple reasons for that - London's status as an international travel hub and the overall density of population in the UK are two big and uncontrollable factors - but I'm not going to say that it's been handled well or that the numbers wouldn't very possibly be lower if it had been. The government struggled to "pick a lane" so they flipped and flopped between telling people to stay home, and encouraging people to get back out... Things like "eat out to help out" and the heavy push to get consumers back onto the high street was in hindsight disastrous.

My argument is ONLY that taking a short span of time and graphing "who was worst in that small snapshot" is not a particularly useful metric.
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Old 19-01-2021, 09:30 AM #59
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No that is correct Mock, you can still carry the virus even if vaccinated

the point of vaccination is that you don't develop the disease in a serious way or enough to be hospitalised
i heard this from my country's ICU chief Diederik Gommers, whom is educating the youth on corona, why lockdowns are important, why vaccinating is important here, using social media
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Old 19-01-2021, 09:31 AM #60
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Not really because as Dezzy's already said on the thread, first or fifth is an atrocious showing for the UK, especially considering the four countries above us have way bigger populations than us so we may as well be number one on the overall death list.

I'm sorry but either way Toy Soldier's argument doesn't really hold up in this scenario.

I totally agree with you Mock.

Also as to your other post of this being an even nastier, cruel( that's my addition to your words), Con party under Johnson.

I actually, liked Michael Howard as Con Leader.
I think the rot started to set in again more forcefully as to deceit under Cameron.
It was actually Theresa May who stated he party was being seen as the nasty party.

Cameron caved in to the anti EU extremist side of the party, which John Major had fought to sideline particularly on the EU.

Theresa May had little control and things just got worse and nastier under her farcical leadership.

However Johnson has taken deceit, heartlessness and blatant cruelty to a new low in the Con party.
Particularly on the handling of both brexit and covid.
.

His refusal to even meet with bereaved families is and should be a national scandal as should be our death rates.
There was kind of lauding of the government when Italy stepped ahead of us on official deaths from covid.
Now we are heading to near 15,000 more deaths again than Italy.

It is shocking, and largely caused by the failure to prepare and protect properly and for longer by this government.
Their procrastination in vital decision making also adding to the problem of unnecessary deaths of loved ones.

I can't wait for the proper inquiry into this which I hope all other Parties insist on..
Despite Johnson trying to hold back on that.
When all those bereaved families, and other groups who know all that's been done wrong can present all to the said inquiry, when it eventually comes.
Which it will and I can't wait.

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Old 19-01-2021, 09:43 AM #61
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I wasn't even arguing that the UK has done well/badly/whatever I just don't like dodgy graphic and stats that are of limited use . I don't think a tiered list that shows a small snapshot of time is particularly useful for knowing how well things have been handled; too easy to manipulate. If the same graph had been posted in August it would have looked like The UK had done amazingly because our deaths per million per day were way down.

I agree that the UK's overall deaths per capita are an obvious indication that we have been hammered hard, especially if you adjust for scale. I think anyone being totally honest knows there are multiple reasons for that - London's status as an international travel hub and the overall density of population in the UK are two big and uncontrollable factors - but I'm not going to say that it's been handled well or that the numbers wouldn't very possibly be lower if it had been. The government struggled to "pick a lane" so they flipped and flopped between telling people to stay home, and encouraging people to get back out... Things like "eat out to help out" and the heavy push to get consumers back onto the high street was in hindsight disastrous.

My argument is ONLY that taking a short span of time and graphing "who was worst in that small snapshot" is not a particularly useful metric.
I get what you're saying, but to me the fact that we do badly in every type of death rate chart throughout most of the Pandemic does have to be taken seriously, even if the method of how the one on this thread has been counted is questionable.

To me if it was just a dodgy graphic or whatever I would be way less critical of the Tories handling of the disease, but sadly a lot of other graphics always show us high up on the death rates too.
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Old 19-01-2021, 09:44 AM #62
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i heard this from my country's ICU chief Diederik Gommers, whom is educating the youth on corona, why lockdowns are important, why vaccinating is important here, using social media
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Old 19-01-2021, 09:46 AM #63
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I totally agree with you Mock.

Also as to your other post of this being an even nastier, cruel( that's my addition to your words), Con party under Johnson.

I actually, liked Michael Howard as Con Leader.
I think the rot started to set in again more forcefully as to deceit under Cameron.
It was actually Theresa May who stated he party was being seen as the nasty party.

Cameron caved in to the anti EU extremist side of the party, which John Major had fought to sideline particularly on the EU.

Theresa May had little control and things just hot worse and nastier under her farcical leadership.

However Johnson has taken deceit, heartlessness and blatant cruelty to a new low in the Con party.
Particularly on the handling of both brexit and covid.
.

His refusal to even meet with bereaved families is and should be a national scandal as should be our death rates.
There was kind of lauding of the government when Italy stepped ahead of us on official deaths from covid.
Now we are heading to near 15,000 more deaths again than Italy.

It is shocking, and largely caused by the failure to prepare and protect properly and for longer by this government.
Their procrastination in vital decision making also adding to the problem of unnecessary deaths of loved ones.

I can't wait for the proper inquiry into this which I hope all other Parties insist on..
Despite Johnson trying to hold back on that.
When all those bereaved families, and other groups who know all that's been done wrong can present all to the said inquiry, when it eventually comes.
Which it will and I can't wait.
I liked Michael Howard too (and John Major when I've heard him speak) but sadly they're seen as too soft by some of the public because they don't want to be inhumane psychopaths who have a fetish of playing the buffoon.

And I'm interested in the inquiry too Joey.
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Old 19-01-2021, 09:48 AM #64
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I get what you're saying, but to me the fact that we do badly in every type of death rate chart throughout most of the Pandemic does have to be taken seriously, even if the method of how the one on this thread has been counted is questionable.

To me if it was just a dodgy graphic or whatever I would be way less critical of the Tories handling of the disease, but sadly a lot of other graphics always show us high up on the death rates too.
Again I don't disagree but I would argue that if one has better stats and graphics that can be used to illustrate an argument, those are the ones that should be used, instead of cherry picking figures to create more graphs. It's a common media tactic but really all it does is create weak points in the argument that can easily be picked apart by a critic.

In short, you don't bolster existing robust statistics by including weaker contrived statistics... You actually knock the legs out from under them by introducing the element of doubt.

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Old 19-01-2021, 11:43 AM #65
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No that is correct Mock, you can still carry the virus even if vaccinated

the point of vaccination is that you don't develop the disease in a serious way or enough to be hospitalised
I thought this was just the pfizer one? Sure I read the oxford one actually stops catching/transmisson. Which is why I find it a bit baffling that the pfizer one is the one being pushed really. Its awkward to store, and seems to not actually help the spread or anything. Meanwhile, the oxford one can just be stored in a bog standard fridge for 3 days..it seems the pfizer one is still the key, according to the government, but I cannot see how. It was a good stopgap until others came, but unless I have understood it all wrong (which is entirely possible!) the oxford one should be the main one used..

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(otherwise covid-19 will never really go away)
This bit though, is very optomistic. I wish I could believe it will 'go away' but I cannot see it. Much more likely to behave like other coronaviruses, and become a kind of..seasonal illness. That might need a vaccine topup every now and again (possibly alongside the flu jab, as the high risk people for both seem to overlap a lot). There would be a LOT more work involved in totally eradicating it, and I am sure we only ever managed that with smallpox..and that was due to everyone working together and a very very aggressive fight, and a crapload of money because of the sheer numbers dying everywhere. Which I cannot see covid being deemed 'serious enough' for all that effort. Especially if it keeps mutating. My friend who works in virology swears blind that the huge majority of mutations are the virus becoming naturally less deadly..as a virus that kills its host is a crappy virus, in virus terms, its meant to spread easily person to person but not kill them. Or something along those lines. If this follows the same route, in time it will become more and more like..well a cold really (not saying it is this now, bu its the logical endpoint to me). I have found nothing to contradict what she said either..seems it is largely correct in that viruses do tend to get less deadly over time, rather than more.

While it sounds horrendous, 2m people over the whole world dying in a year..I cannot see being deemed serious enough for a smallpox type reaction from leaders.
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Old 19-01-2021, 11:53 AM #66
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I thought this was just the pfizer one? Sure I read the oxford one actually stops catching/transmisson. Which is why I find it a bit baffling that the pfizer one is the one being pushed really. Its awkward to store, and seems to not actually help the spread or anything. Meanwhile, the oxford one can just be stored in a bog standard fridge for 3 days..it seems the pfizer one is still the key, according to the government, but I cannot see how. It was a good stopgap until others came, but unless I have understood it all wrong (which is entirely possible!) the oxford one should be the main one used..
It's unknown for both; the trials have all been a simple "vaccines to number of cases" measure of effectiveness, there has been little to no testing at all on whether vaccinated people are totally immune or can still be asymptomatic carriers... figuring that out takes far longer. There's also no reason to assume that one vaccine is better/worse than another at this point when it comes to this.

However, either way, it's worth remembering that vaccinated or not, people can still transmit the virus to others on their hands/clothes/posessions etc. if there's a short enough time between contamination and contact.
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Old 19-01-2021, 12:01 PM #67
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It's unknown for both; the trials have all been a simple "vaccines to number of cases" measure of effectiveness, there has been little to no testing at all on whether vaccinated people are totally immune or can still be asymptomatic carriers... figuring that out takes far longer. There's also no reason to assume that one vaccine is better/worse than another at this point when it comes to this.

However, either way, it's worth remembering that vaccinated or not, people can still transmit the virus to others on their hands/clothes/posessions etc. if there's a short enough time between contamination and contact.
This bit is very interesting to me actually..as am now wondering if this is the case for other vaccines or not? Like, could you still spread chickenpox like this, if you had the vaccine? Honestly (and maybe naively too) I kind of assumed that 'the norm' for vaccinations was..that you cannot get it, nor pass it to anyone high risk who cannot have the vaccine for whatever reason.
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Old 19-01-2021, 12:04 PM #68
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This bit is very interesting to me actually..as am now wondering if this is the case for other vaccines or not? Like, could you still spread chickenpox like this, if you had the vaccine? Honestly (and maybe naively too) I kind of assumed that 'the norm' for vaccinations was..that you cannot get it, nor pass it to anyone high risk who cannot have the vaccine for whatever reason.
i'm pretty sure there are vaccines that don't stop you getting the particular virus, but stop you spreading it, so there are a few variations around that theme
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Old 19-01-2021, 12:15 PM #69
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This bit is very interesting to me actually..as am now wondering if this is the case for other vaccines or not? Like, could you still spread chickenpox like this, if you had the vaccine? Honestly (and maybe naively too) I kind of assumed that 'the norm' for vaccinations was..that you cannot get it, nor pass it to anyone high risk who cannot have the vaccine for whatever reason.
It depends on the virus - some can survive without a host (on objects) for a prolonged time, some die within minutes or even seconds outside of a host so can only spread directly from person to person. Also the "amount of exposure" needed to infect varies so for example some could spread just with that's transferred on someone's hands... some would need there to be an actual gob of spit or something (bleh...) so you could catch it from, say, someone's used tissues but not from someone's coat.

I can't say I know the answer specifically for chicken pox . It does seem to be surprisingly still quite unknown for MANY regular vaccines, and I cas see lots of studies that suggest large reductions but not "complete" halting e.g. a vaccine giving 95% individual protection in a population but only stopping spread by about 70%... which would suggest that 70% of people gain full immunity, and then a further 25% gain a level of immunity that stops them developing symptoms but the virus is still replicating asymptomatically in them.

In theory... it SHOULDN'T be a problem so long as all of the vulnerable categories are vaccinated, and assuming that the vaccine effects are long-term... as it should mean that even if it continues to spread, anything more than mild cases will become very rare.

I do agree with you above though; the scale of spread at this point means it's a complete fantasy that we'll ever live in a 100% covid-free world, viruses like this that are "out of the bag" so to speak can't just be eradicated... if they could, we would have eradicated chicken pox, measles, glandular fever etc. years ago but they still go around.

Covid will HOPEFULLY be rendered "not really a problem" by vaccination and then life can go back to normal. People get seriously ill and die of viruses all the time and always have, we carry on. The key is in bringing the scale of them problem WAY down so that we can treat it as we do those viruses. And I agree that it will most likely be a "minor ailment of the future", one of a multitude of minor viruses that circulate, but we're likely talking a century or more for that to happen really. Essentially, it's possible or even likely that the existing circulating coronaviruses were pretty nasty in humans when they first appeared... but they've been around for a LONG time.
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Old 19-01-2021, 12:33 PM #71
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the answer to that is simple Arista, people like Morgan ignore the restrictions
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Old 19-01-2021, 12:48 PM #72
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Well yeah, vulnerable categories safeguarded against severe infection would definitely help a lot, especially NHS/other health system wise. A few mornings ago I was watching bbc news (something I have avoided for months actually..) and they were saying they were expecting to have everyone over 18 vaccinated by june. Which seems a bit..wasteful to me. Can't see that happening, maybe they are saying that to calm the younger people who are panicking and it will all be a bit 'ok, we have done it' once the vulnerable are sorted..I do think it will be a requirement for foreign travel though for most places..which is not that different to needing malaria jabs and stuff.

I would think that the 'actual plan' IS just to do the vunerable, as really, you cannot avoid a small amount of death completely, nor should we try to eradicate death IMO which some seem to be expecting. The issue is the NHS. If we can get it all to a level where the health system can function, that will be 'good enough'. What we have currently is loads dying of stuff that wouldn't usually kill them, because all resources are taken by covid patients. So now things that were not deadly before, can be.

The june thing..sounded fantasy for the whole country though, and just an hour later this was changed to 'all over 18s by september'

There was also a bit of attitude towards Israel and the implication they are not doing well with their vaccine rollout, yet..they have 25/100 people done apparently, while we are on much lower ..obviously we have a higher population, but it did come across very..sneering which seemed daft.

I seemingly cannot convince my mother in law that she should get the vaccine. She has declined so far, partly because of hearsay around her street. One of the women had it a week or so back, and said she was told 'if you feel a bit spaced out for a few days, dont worry, thats normal'. I am 100% positive she misheard/misremembered this, but it seems to have worried the people round there, which are mainly elderly/ill as its basically a form of sheltered housing the place she lives. Things like that certainly do not help matters, though I doubt she did it on purpose. Result of her spreading that about, seems to be half the street dropping out :S

That said though, my mother in law was not too keen on the idea to start with (though she gets the flu jab every year..) as she had covid ages back now and didn't even know she had it, despite being one of those that..to look at you would think would at least be hospitalised. She remains convinced, regardless of how many scientists say a vaccine is still needed, that natural imunity will be good enough. Her neighbour telling her to expect weird side effects cemented it in her. I have said that while it does appear getting it again is extremely rare, its clearly possible. Also it looks like usually a second infection..is not as bad as the first, but the potential is there for her to get it badly a second time, even if unlikely. I now feel I am just lecturing a nearly 70 year old woman..so just leaving her to it. But I do wnder how many 'vulnerable' are actually taking it up. The same bbc news thing, they had some health guy on and he was asked how good the takeup rate was. He gave a politicians answer, and it was something like 'shielding people who have not seen their families since march are very grateful for the advances' or something..which made me worry takeup is NOT very good, as if it was, he would have just said that surely?!

I guess time will tell. It will be 'interesting' to read all the studies and such in 30 years time, thats for sure!
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Old 19-01-2021, 12:52 PM #73
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the answer to that is simple Arista, people like Morgan ignore the restrictions
I am so annoyed that he got away with swanning off at Christmas even if 'technically' it was within the rules, it certainly wasn't in the spirit of lockdown, he is shameless
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Old 19-01-2021, 12:52 PM #74
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Good god, that was an essay and a half. And a lot of irrelevant waffle too really

I thik am storing it all up for when I come on forums, as I dare not post any statuses to do with it, as its divided the country even more than brexit did, and anyone who posts anything, be it that they are a lockdown fan, or think things are to strict, gets jumped on immediately.

Am awaiting a pile on actually, as saying that I did post what I think is my first covid related status this morning. After reading about people kicking off that some shops are still selling clothes. As clothes are not a necessity apparently. like, try having yung children who grow at a ridiculous rate, or speaking to the likes of NHS staff who are working so long/hard that their uniforms are hanging on by threads. Yeah, theres the amazn option, however..my experience of clothes buying on amazon, or online in general really..has been you order a size 14, and it comes 3 weeks later and says 14 but is either a 6 or a 20

I cannot begin to even try working out how its been deemed clothes are not essential, yet takeaway coffee and mcdonalds and such is..
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Old 19-01-2021, 01:01 PM #75
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My impression is that the take up has been pretty good so far. I think as they go through the categories to those less vulnerable, the take up will reduce dramatically. The idea that we will get herd immunity through vaccination is fatally flawed I think, for all sorts of reasons, so I wish they would stop projecting it as the big solution.
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