[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

And I couldn't have said it any better than you have.

It seems that lately it's always the threads about sexuality and gender that trigger the most heated conversations and obvious ignorance.

Some people really feel fragile and threatened when it comes to how others live their lives. Just move on and accept others for what they are, it really is not hard. Nobody is attacking or threatening you, just relax and love it.

Exactly, thank you!

[bitontheslide]

refusing to listen to the thoughts of one side of any debate and even worse accusing them falsely of hate crimes and spreading misinformation for having concerns, is a mirror of what Trump tried to achieve in America. Thought for the day.

[Captain.Remy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

If someone thinks their rights are at risk, and you think otherwise, you need to explain why their fears are misplaced... carefully, in detail, and respecting those worries. "Lol no you are wrong, be quiet and relax" is dismissive at very best and yes I agree with Marsh, straight-up misogyny at worst. Massive conotations.

Again, in what way was it misogyny though?
What I meant is that trans people are not threatening anybody, they're being themselves. How is that against women?
I also agreed with Jessica that calling a transwoman a man is transphobia. Because it is. I'm not the one saying it because I decided so, it's the people that are concerned about it that express that.

Back to the topic, I think that more educating surrounding the toilets or locker rooms can do a long way so that fears are not only misplaced but gone. We hear many stories and feedbacks that unisex toilets have not increased violence for example.
Education is for the better, I believe. Both women rights and trans rights don't have to be put against each other.

[Novo]

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

And I couldn't have said it any better than you have.

It seems that lately it's always the threads about sexuality and gender that trigger the most heated conversations and obvious ignorance.

Some people really feel fragile and threatened when it comes to how others live their lives. Just move on and accept others for what they are, it really is not hard. Nobody is attacking or threatening you, just relax and love it.

people do care about things like that though and its a huge topic because sports is a big deal to so many people around the world its not about being fragile its about giving women equal opportunity to compete with other biological women, why does that make anyone fragile or threatened in anyway? their are differences that you have to accept when it comes to things like that, no good turning a blind eye to it.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

I wasn't specifically talking about that issue in particular, but more so about the general feel I get lately on this forum that there's a lot of heated debates around that and how we still have a long way to go before completely accepting people for their genders and sexualities without judging them or making assumptions about who is who and who loves who and what. What I said is that it really can't be that hard to accept people for who they are. I mean, why the hatred ans refusal to get educated on this topic. That's the feel I got lately and I get it that not everybody shares that and I'm OK with that.

That's basically all I said and I wish everybody would be more open-minded and accepting of people that are marginalized and discriminated on.

I've literally never seen anyone on this forum do what you've said in the bit in bold there; any and all concerns I see are about how it affects single-sex spaces and sex segregated sports, and general concerns about how trans issues interact with already existing gender equality debates.

Valid and important debate issues and attempting to shut them down by accusing people who are interested in these issues of being transphobic, judgemental or uneducated is an extremebly dubious stance, and in my opinion, a quite deliberate shaming tactic or strawman. There's just no place for it in an actually educated debate, or anywhere outside outrage-culture.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

Again, in what way was it misogyny though?

In short? Because flippantly poo-pooing away women's concerns as silly, unfounded, illogical or uneducated instead of actually allowing them to be aired and discussed is misogyny as old as the hills... and it's exactly what you're trying to do, repeatedly. You have barely offered up ANY discussion of why the concerns are unfounded, beyond "that's just silly they are unfounded just sit down and accept it".

[Captain.Remy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I've literally never seen anyone on this forum do what you've said in the bit in bold there; any and all concerns I see are about how it affects single-sex spaces and sex segregated sports, and general concerns about how trans issues interact with already existing gender equality debates.

Valid and important debate issues and attempting to shut them down by accusing people who are interested in these issues of being transphobic, judgemental or uneducated is an extremebly dubious stance, and in my opinion, a quite deliberate shaming tactic or strawman. There's just no place for it in an actually educated debate, or anywhere outside outrage-culture.

Not in this thread particularly. You can read some past ones, it's pretty alarming. To me at least.
As for the rest, I think I was pretty clear. I agreed with Jessica and that was it. And again, I was advocating for people to more open-minded and know more about transgender people so that this kind of fears and discrimination can finally be put to rest and live together in a more accepting society.

But you can take it out on me if you want, when I was just saying that trans rights and womens rights don't have to be against each other. In the end it's social justice.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

It's always been proven that Trans rights are women’s rights too, one doesn't put at risk the others

Transwomen being allowed into female spaces negates women's rights to have single sex spaces, so yeah, in that case their rights are in conflict.

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The irony really is in how naive and ignorant this post is .



"Shut up women, your rights are not being attacked or threatened, just relax and love it".



Massively problematic.

Exactly this.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

Stop pretending that you care about fairness in sports when that is one of the least relevant parts of the conversation. If that was the only problem people had with trans women then there wouldn't be the same transphobia over and over on the forum. Yes, calling a transwoman a man is transphobia.

I literally have a female boxer as my avatar but I don't care about sports. How about you don't tell me what I do and do not care about because you clearly have no idea.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

Stop pretending that you care about fairness in sports when that is one of the least relevant parts of the conversation. If that was the only problem people had with trans women then there wouldn't be the same transphobia over and over on the forum. Yes, calling a transwoman a man is transphobia.

Sports is actually a prime example, apart from 'winning' there are lucrative sponsorship deals that come from being top in your field

also in the USA and TiBB loves the US, Scholarships are handed out to top atheletes

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Transwomen being allowed into female spaces negates women's rights to have single sex spaces, so yeah, in that case their rights are in conflict.

No it doesn't, trans women are women, it's their right to use the same spaces as the rest of us, lots of cis women don't have typical genitalia either, does that mean they are not women? No it doesn't, obviously. Your only issue is that they were assigned male at birth which doesn't affect how much of a woman they are whatsoever.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

I was just saying that trans rights and womens rights don't have to be against each other. In the end it's social justice.

We agree on that but to me it's pretty clear that to find a way forward that respects everyone's rights as much as possible is the ability to have open, honest, frank and thus very difficult discussions about those rights, where they match up, where they clash, and what can be done to work around those clashes.

There's no part of that that involves sweeping the conversation under the carpet because it's a hard one to have, and there's no way for it to start on a platform that insists one point of view has it all figured out and the other is "uneducated".

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

refusing to listen to the thoughts of one side of any debate and even worse accusing them falsely of hate crimes and spreading misinformation for having concerns, is a mirror of what Trump tried to achieve in America. Thought for the day.

.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

Stop pretending that you care about fairness in sports when that is one of the least relevant parts of the conversation. If that was the only problem people had with trans women then there wouldn't be the same transphobia over and over on the forum. Yes, calling a transwoman a man is transphobia.

Yeah but that person needs to realise that there are people out there who when meeting her for the first time may think she is a man. Once told people wont continue to refer to her as him.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

No it doesn't, trans women are women, it's their right to use the same spaces as the rest of us, lots of cis women don't have typical genitalia either, does that mean they are not women? No it doesn't, obviously. Your only issue is that they were assigned male at birth which doesn't affect how much of a woman they are whatsoever.

How can you reduce the issue of single sex spaces to genitalia without reducing the difference between the sexes entirely to genitalia - thus nullifying the entire concept of gender and thus, in effect, arguing that transgender can't exist? Are you aware that your own thought process is full of incompatible ideas here?

[Novo]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I literally have a female boxer as my avatar but I don't care about sports. How about you don't tell me what I do and do not care about because you clearly have no idea.

ah yes that awful FENIAN boxer isn't it




just kidding x

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

How can you reduce the issue of single sex spaces to genitalia without reducing the difference between the sexes entirely to genitalia - thus nullifying the entire concept of gender and thus, in effect, arguing that transgender can't exist? Are you aware that your own thought process is full of incompatible ideas here?

Gender is not completely related to genitalia, that's what I am saying.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

Gender is not completely related to genitalia, that's what I am saying.

But you were the only one who brought genitalia into it...

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

When it comes to public toilets I am PERSONALLY still a massive advocate of unisex single-cubicles. More and more places have them and I think it's absolutely the way forward. In all honesty, I don't particularly like sharing bathroom space with ANYONE so I'm quite biased here.

Also, as the male parent of a female child with additional needs, they are a godsend. It wasn't so much of an issue when she was really little, but she's 8 now so I don't really want to troop her in past the grubby blokes at the urinals to a cubicle in a men's toilets... and I can't just wander on into the ladies with her... so if there isn't an available disabled toilet it becomes an issue. A few nearby shopping complexes/malls just have rows of individual locking bathrooms now and I love it. In the 21st century... I just can't see many good arguments to not make this "the norm" for toilets/changing areas/etc. Solves a multitude of very basic problems.

Tbh I never understood why there had to be public urinals, if I was a man I'd hate having to use them as there's literally no personal space . Cubicles are atleast more private . But urinals are too exposed.

[Toy Soldier]

I have to wonder - do people who are all for abandoning single-sex spaces aware of what the actual fear is? It's not a fear that genuine transwomen are going to start attacking people at random... it's a fear that men will use it as a loophole to access those spaces disingenuously and with nefarious intent.

As for the argument that "that won't happen" - all I can really say there is that anyone who genuinely believes it won't happen doesn't know the half of this world and probably doesn't want to. It's not a "maybe"... it -will- happen. That's not a judgment on genuine transwomen at all, it's a judgement on men, and an acceptance that there are a seriously sickening number of men out there who will absolutely exploit an opportunity to abuse and harm women. Hard realities but there it is.

[Novo]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Tbh I never understood why there had to be public urinals, if I was a man I'd hate having to use them as there's literally no personal space . Cubicles are atleast more private . But urinals are too exposed.

all you are doing is having a slash, if another guy is having a slash right next you who cares, just relieved to get it out the system aren't you

[LeatherTrumpet]

SO so far if you disagree I will call you a name (tick)

if you disagree you are transphobic (tick)

if you disagree you are the problem (tick)


and you wonder why this is oft described as toxic?

[Captain.Remy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

We agree on that but to me it's pretty clear that to find a way forward that respects everyone's rights as much as possible is the ability to have open, honest, frank and thus very difficult discussions about those rights, where they match up, where they clash, and what can be done to work around those clashes.

There's no part of that that involves sweeping the conversation under the carpet because it's a hard one to have, and there's no way for it to start on a platform that insists one point of view has it all figured out and the other is "uneducated".

Again, what I meant was not "women must shut up", to be clear.

I meant, in a more general way, that the feeling on TIBB lately when it comes to transgender people and sexuality topics was more intense than usual and, in a more general way, we should all try to love and accept each other for who they are.
I sometimes struggle with the idea that people can say transpeople are not valid or men or women etc. Just let people be and love each other

Also, and to refer to Jessica's comment, a lot of time transgender people face the "but you're not born a man/woman" which nobody denies (though hormones is a tricky topic also), and a lot of people hide their transphobia behind issues like sports, unisex toilets or locker rooms. Hence the frustration.
It is an education issue also when people who have those fears didn't take the chance to at least talk with the right people (ie transgender people in this case). And before anybody jumps on that, I'm NOT saying TIBB members are transphobic or uneducated, just so we're clear.

I hope it cleared that up for whoever thought I was telling women to act or feel a certain way, because I was not and would never. My comment was targeting transphobic people. Good night to all!

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

No it doesn't, trans women are women, it's their right to use the same spaces as the rest of us, lots of cis women don't have typical genitalia either, does that mean they are not women? No it doesn't, obviously. Your only issue is that they were assigned male at birth which doesn't affect how much of a woman they are whatsoever.

Transwomen are male, women are female - "even" women with intersex conditions, funnily enough.

Sex isn't assigned at birth; it's acknowledged or recorded at birth, but biological realities can't be assigned.