[Alf]

Flat racing is more dangerous than jump racing, because they're running at a much faster speed. That's why on average flat track horses will retire before they reach the age of 5 years old, many before that age. Grand national horses range from about 7 year old to 15 year old.

The fences are much safer these days and they're always looking to improve the safety of both the horses and the Jockeys, but sadly, accidents do sometimes happen in life.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Alf

Flat racing is more dangerous than jump racing, because they're running at a much faster speed. That's why on average flat track horses will retire before they reach the age of 5 years old, many before that age. Grand national horses range from about 7 year old to 15 year old.

The fences are much safer these days and they're always looking to improve the safety of both the horses and the Jockeys, but sadly, accidents do sometimes happen in life.

Horses don’t jump hedges in the wild


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Alf]

I do admire your tenacious fighting spirit on this subject, Kaz, and I'm not totally shut off to what you propose, however, the impact of just totally stopping horse racing could be devastating for both the horses and the people involved. That also has to be taken into consideration.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

horses like to run, so there is nothing inherently wrong with that. Whipping them to go faster and forcing them to jump fences that could easily be made "horse safe" for very little effort is cruel

Bit of a myth; they love to run, but they much prefer to run without someone on their back.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

If they are not bred then the amount will decrease , besides I am sure the ones we have could live out their lives at their owners expense afterall they are SUPPOSED to love their horses .

Hmm, on reflection yes, I think you've made a very strong point there.

Yeah, you're right.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

Flat racing is more dangerous than jump racing, because they're running at a much faster speed. That's why on average flat track horses will retire before they reach the age of 5 years old, many before that age. Grand national horses range from about 7 year old to 15 year old.

This has nothing to do with how safe it is; it's because pure speed is important on the flat whereas experience comes into play with the jumps. Younger horses are faster on the flat, thus they get retired from flat racing earlier when they become too slow to compete. Jumps are (quite obviously) much more dangerous for both horse and rider.

[Alf]

Think of how many people your putting out of work, probably, tens of thousands or millions of people, that will be devastating. So you need to have something in place to deal with this.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

Think of how many people your putting out of work, probably, tens of thousands or millions of people, that will be devastating.

where on earth are you getting those numbers.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This has nothing to do with how safe it is; it's because pure speed is important on the flat whereas experience comes into play with the jumps. Younger horses are faster on the flat, thus they get retired from flat racing earlier when they become too slow to compete. Jumps are (quite obviously) much more dangerous for both horse and rider.

Much more pulled muscles and lame horses on the flat, because they're going at a much faster speed, and they run on harder ground during the Summer.

Yes! You're back off the ignore list. You're on probation.

[LaLaLand]

The jumps and fences in the GN are just ridiculous. I can’t watch anything about it because it makes me ill.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

Much more pulled muscles and lame horses on the flat, because they're going at a much faster speed, and they run on harder ground during the Summer.

Yes! You're back off the ignore list. You're on probation.

A pulled muscle is not a fatal injury so it's only more dangerous if you consider the animal's worth to be purely in what it can offer as a competitive runner... and that's a huge part of the problem with the whole industry. Competitive horses are indeed some of the best-treated animals in the world... because of their financial value... not because of any care about their welfare. They're just a commodity.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

where on earth are you getting those numbers.

Bookies, trainers, grooms, stable boys and girl and all the other staff involved. Then there's the race track, caterers, stewards and all other staff. Then there's media, television, magazines, reporters. Multiply that all over the UK and I think that's a good estimate.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

Bookies, trainers, grooms, stable boys and girl and all the other staff involved. Then there's the race track, caterers, stewards and all other staff. Then there's media, television, magazines, reporters. Multiply that all over the UK and I think that's a good estimate.

The gambling industry hasn't been reliant on racing for well over a decade, there's much more money in football and other "human sports" these days and of course those damned slots machines. It's also fairly well known in the betting industry that revenue isn't based on betting selection... it's based on what punters have in their pocket to punt. In other words, if someone comes in to put £50 on a horse and there's no horse racing, he's not going to walk out the door - he's going to bet that £50 on something else... football that night, big Tennis match, who he thinks is going to win Britain's Got Talent, whatever. That's the gambling mindset. If someone walks in with money to bet, they're going to spend it. .

The rest is a fair point, the total number employed by the industry is easily in the tens of thousands but certainly not millions or anywhere close - I doubt it comes close to 100,000 if you take gambling industry out of the equation.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The gambling industry hasn't been reliant on racing for well over a decade, there's much more money in football and other "human sports" these days and of course those damned slots machines. It's also fairly well known in the betting industry that revenue isn't based on betting selection... it's based on what punters have in their pocket to punt. In other words, if someone comes in to put £50 on a horse and there's no horse racing, he's not going to walk out the door - he's going to bet that £50 on something else... football that night, big Tennis match, who he thinks is going to win Britain's Got Talent, whatever. That's the gambling mindset. If someone walks in with money to bet, they're going to spend it. .

The rest is a fair point, the total number employed by the industry is easily in the tens of thousands but certainly not millions or anywhere close - I doubt it comes close to 100,000 if you take gambling industry out of the equation.

Don't forget you want Greyhound racing gone too, because you said it's worse.

You honestly believe Bookies would survive how it is today without horse racing or greyhound racing?

What happens in summer, when football is in the off season and there's no games to bet on?

[parmnion]

Yes it is cruel, and there are many cruel characters involved in the sport.

But I love it, nothing better than a day at the races with the lads.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Loads of people keep horses Alf, why is that an unusual concept to you?

My brother in law has 3...and keeps whining on that he is in a high paid job and cannot afford a foreign holiday, where we have a MUCH lower income and can afford 2 a year at a push. He doesn't seem to connect the dots, that without the horses he could most likely buy a bloody place abroad..must cost him a mint.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It is a black and white issue... private owners mistreating their horses has absolutely nothing to do with competitive horse breeding and racing? I don't really understand your logic. "It's complicated because private horse owners also sometimes treat horses badly, so that somehow makes it OK that the horse racing industry treats horses badly."

Shut down both

So you're saying shut down private horse ownership?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by MTVN

So you're saying shut down private horse ownership?

I said that there being shoddy owners outside of racing has absolutely nothing to do with the racing industry - the idea seemed to be that the existence of bad private owners somehow muddied the waters around whether or not the racing industry is moral. It doesn’t logically follow. It’s like saying “Umm well, the morality of testing cosmetics on cats is actually a grey area, because some cat owners are abusive anyway”.

I wasn’t saying “stop all horse ownership” I was saying you can tackle both the issue of the exploitative racing industry, and the problem of neglectful private owners. They are completely separate and the existence of the latter doesn’t somehow excuse the former .

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

Don't forget you want Greyhound racing gone too, because you said it's worse.

You honestly believe Bookies would survive how it is today without horse racing or greyhound racing?

What happens in summer, when football is in the off season and there's no games to bet on?

The vast majority of over-the-counter betting shops are not reliant on racing of either variety to survive, both have been in steady decline for many years, and you’re underestimating how much shop revenue is tied to the slots machines. The majority of shops could not survive without their machines revenue, and there are plenty of places where it makes up well over 50% of total revenue.

Also, large bets (over £300) on dogs and horses are relatively uncommon, whereas £1000+ bets on football, boxing, golf, other sports, and niche sports markets (American football is a big one) are much more common for the “big” punters.

Grand National revenue has been falling year on year for over a decade.

Horses and dogs are a dying industry in the UK no matter which way you slice it, it’s a matter of “when” not “if” in my opinion.

[arista]

[Kazanne]

Just because a woman won makes no difference,its still cruel ,and the old chestnut that keeps being rolled out that they are very well cared for is not true,but people want to believe that as it eases their conscience

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I said that there being shoddy owners outside of racing has absolutely nothing to do with the racing industry - the idea seemed to be that the existence of bad private owners somehow muddied the waters around whether or not the racing industry is moral. It doesn’t logically follow. It’s like saying “Umm well, the morality of testing cosmetics on cats is actually a grey area, because some cat owners are abusive anyway”.

I wasn’t saying “stop all horse ownership” I was saying you can tackle both the issue of the exploitative racing industry, and the problem of neglectful private owners. They are completely separate and the existence of the latter doesn’t somehow excuse the former .

Yeah but it's worth considering whether horses on average might be better treated in the racing industry than they are in private ownership and also the unintended consequence of banning horse racing might be a surge in private ownership which causes more problems than there were before. If that's the case then an outright ban on racing might not benefit horse welfare at all and instead the focus should be on clamping down on abuse within the industry and finding ways to make it safer

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Just because a woman won makes no difference,its still cruel ,and the old chestnut that keeps being rolled out that they are very well cared for is not true,but people want to believe that as it eases their conscience

Of Course.


But to many Bets are still being done
Unless the bet's stop
it is not going anyplace

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by arista

Of Course.


But to many Bets are still being done
Unless the bet's stop
it is not going anyplace

Exactly a prime example of human greed over animal welfare.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Exactly a prime example of human greed over animal welfare.

Yes Greed
will never go away