[Smithy]

I think the point Shaun was making is that people of every age demographic and sexuality use only fans but you only seem to be focused on young girls, I have friends who make a fortune off of it and this effects their livelihoods

[Swan]

So twitch is trying to be like only fans (without the porn aspect, even though anyone who knows twitch well knows these boundaries are pushed daily) and only fans is trying to be more like twitch. Weird.

[The Slim Reaper]

I think there are a few issues at play here, but first and foremost this genie isn't going back in the bottle, so for me it's about how best to manage it and provide assistance.

Also, I think it's also important to at least acknowledge that sex work is legitimate; not for everyone obviously, but if people of a legal age are choosing to do this, then it's none of my business.

That doesn't mean that they can't put rigorous background checks and support into it, such as forced unionisation based around protection, counselling, and mental health support.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Smithy

I think the point Shaun was making is that people of every age demographic and sexuality use only fans but you only seem to be focused on young girls, I have friends who make a fortune off of it and this effects their livelihoods

As a soon to be 48 year old straight man I’m see as some sort of pervert if I say it’s a persons choice if they want to do this and don’t see those that do it as vulnerable, they are doing what they want to do

It seems woman in general are viewed by some as not being able to make up there own minds

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Maybe so for now but knocking a big player off the board is usually an indication that a "tide is turning". Pornhub's crackdown on anonymous uploading and "who can post porn" did have a decent knock-on effect on these sites generally (they're still awful, but the "amateur violence" is decreasing).

Pornhub is still thriving though. And as JFF is purely for porn, I’m sure it will do fine.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Smithy

I think the point Shaun was making is that people of every age demographic and sexuality use only fans but you only seem to be focused on young girls, I have friends who make a fortune off of it and this effects their livelihoods

Your friends won't be able to make a fortune if action is taken to help prevent children and young people - mostly teenage girls - from being exploited and commoditised by the sex industry.

"Boo hoo hoo but how will I get to the diamonds if you won't let me send children into the mines any more. Sniffle."

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Also, I think it's also important to at least acknowledge that sex work is legitimate; not for everyone obviously, but if people of a legal age are choosing to do this, then it's none of my business.

Nothing quite like a good sprinkling of blinkered liberalism I guess.

Apparent consent does not negate the presence or possibility of exploitation, and condoning the objectification of women (to the point of their bodies being rented out as a consumer product) on the basis that "it's their choice tho" is a massive, massive over-simplification.

But hey the genie's out of the bottle,

it's the oldest profession,

it's not going to change,

etc. etc. so I guess we'll just pretend it's not a problem.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Nothing quite like a good sprinkling of blinkered liberalism I guess.

Apparent consent does not negate the presence or possibility of exploitation, and condoning the objectification of women (to the point of their bodies being rented out as a consumer product) on the basis that "it's their choice tho" is a massive, massive over-simplification.

But hey the genie's out of the bottle,

it's the oldest profession,

it's not going to change,

etc. etc. so I guess we'll just pretend it's not a problem.

It's not blinkered (or any other kind of) liberalism, it's pure realism. The main points I made were about the support structures we can put in place to both protect and support anyone doing it.

So what is your solution to prevent anyone doing this kind of work?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

It's not blinkered (or any other kind of) liberalism, it's pure realism. The main points I made were about the support structures we can put in place to both protect and support anyone doing it.

So what is your solution to prevent anyone doing this kind of work?

Pointing out that it's obviously not going to be something that's "stopped" is realism yes (see above, re: "the world is grim") but acknowledging that and wanting to seek ways to make sure that anyone who ends up in that world is safe, is completely different to declaring it "none of anyone else's business" / "legitimate so long as people are of legal age" and simply "just not for everyone, but fine otherwise" is not realism, it's liberalism, and legitimization of that form doesn't just protect people who have already taken that path or who would have anyway, it encourages larger numbers of young people to see it as a legitimate career choice when they otherwise would not have, because they are being told from all angles that it's normal or even desireable. It tells increasing generationf of young women that the most valuable legitimate asset they have is their naked body, and that there isn't a problem with the huge numbers of people who are queueing up to buy it.

The numbers who move over into this from things likee TikTok is utterly horrendous - bringing along "customers" who have been following them since they were 15. And they don't see a problem with it when they're 18, or 20, or 25, because there's a lot of money in it and people in general don't do a whole lot of introspection in their late teens and early 20's... but the damage later on is often catastrophic.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Pointing out that it's obviously not going to be something that's "stopped" is realism yes (see above, re: "the world is grim") but acknowledging that and wanting to seek ways to make sure that anyone who ends up in that world is safe, is completely different to declaring it "none of anyone else's business" / "legitimate so long as people are of legal age" and simply "just not for everyone, but fine otherwise" is not realism, it's liberalism, and legitimization of that form doesn't just protect people who have already taken that path or who would have anyway, it encourages larger numbers of young people to see it as a legitimate career choice when they otherwise would not have, because they are being told from all angles that it's normal or even desireable. It tells increasing generationf of young women that the most valuable legitimate asset they have is their naked body, and that there isn't a problem with the huge numbers of people who are queueing up to buy it.

The numbers who move over into this from things likee TikTok is utterly horrendous - bringing along "customers" who have been following them since they were 15. And they don't see a problem with it when they're 18, or 20, or 25, because there's a lot of money in it and people in general don't do a whole lot of introspection in their late teens and early 20's... but the damage later on is often catastrophic.

I put forward decent common sense suggestions for ways to address the issues you've raised, such as background checks (to prevent trafficking), and unionisation based around protection, support, and MH.

Which, unless we're going to not only allow, but promote full control over the body autonomy of adults, is the only sensible way to address the issue, and all the pretending you're the only person in this discussion to care, won't change that as a fundamental fact.

[Tom4784]

Deleted Post

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Smithy

I have friends who make a fortune off of it and this effects their livelihoods

They might have to start actual work

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The numbers who move over into this from things likee TikTok is utterly horrendous - bringing along "customers" who have been following them since they were 15. And they don't see a problem with it when they're 18, or 20, or 25, because there's a lot of money in it and people in general don't do a whole lot of introspection in their late teens and early 20's... but the damage later on is often catastrophic.

Parents who let their teenage children become TikTok "stars" with no supervision are up there with those who leave their sons to get radicalised online. Only difference is in the former case, it's "only" the daughter who ultimately suffers.

[Tom4784]

Deleted Post

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

They might have to start actual work
.

Sex workers aren’t real workers but I bet you watch porn

Hypocrite

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Sex workers aren’t real workers but I bet you watch porn

Hypocrite

I don't think clothing companies should be using what amounts to slave labour, but I still wear clothes.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I put forward decent common sense suggestions for ways to address the issues you've raised, such as background checks (to prevent trafficking), and unionization based around protection, support, and MH.

Which, unless we're going to not only allow, but promote full control over the body autonomy of adults, is the only sensible way to address the issue, and all the pretending you're the only person in this discussion to care, won't change that as a fundamental fact.

Again, you're overlooking a massive gulf between "banning and controlling" and "legitimising as a career choice". It's not just about direct harm to the individuals involved, the very core of the message - that naked bodies (especially young, especially female naked bodies) are a legitimate consumer product is harmful on a much wider level and shouldn't be normalised. Turning it into " a job like any other" - as many would see happen - is absolutely normalisation and that normalisation takes root very quickly in upcoming generations.

At no point have I said it should be made illegal or that body autonomy should be controlled, and pointing out the issues in normalising something and "making it mainstream" is not that.

To give a comparative example; casual low-level alcoholism and binge drinking is heavily normalised in the UK (and elsewhere) to the extent that regularly getting blind drunk is seen not only as "totally normal" but in fact as "a right of passage". That mindset is pretty much set in stone in this country at this point. It causes huge problems. Does that mean I think alcohol should be banned? Or that getting blind drunk should be illegal? No, but I'm also not going to sit here and pretend that drinking daily or throwing back 15 cans every Saturday "normal" or healthy life choice either.

[Tom4784]

Deleted Post

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think common sense is all that's required to make sure underaged people aren't abused or forced into sex work on these sites (if that's even a thing, I don't think I've heard of any cases personally). I don't know how OnlyFans works but obviously I think if anyone is gonna do sex work on there, their age must be checked and verified, but from what I understand, most people who do OnlyFans tend to be influencers and the like, people with some kind of a profile that makes it easy enough to check their ages.

I personally don't agree with judging thousands of adults for their own choices regarding their work, worse still, reducing the very serious issue of child abuse and trafficking to a stick to judge them with.

1) It has nothing to do with force or trafficking and no one has said that it does, so this is either a misunderstanding or a strawman. The discussion has quite clearly and explicitly been about the normalisation of sex work making it an attractive prospect to young people, no 3rd party has been mentioned, at any time.

2) Made clear several times that the biggest issue is teenage girls being followed on other platforms whilst they are underage and then being attracted to OnlyFans as soon as they turn 18.

3) I don't judge the people who are attracted to the profit-making potential of the platform at all and even said that if that sort of money had been a prospect for me at the same age I'd have been all over it. Again though I do absolutely, 100% and without question judge the sad pondlife who are paying the sub fees and facilitating the whole industry.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Again, you're overlooking a massive gulf between "banning and controlling" and "legitimising as a career choice". It's not just about direct harm to the individuals involved, the very core of the message - that naked bodies (especially young, especially female naked bodies) are a legitimate consumer product is harmful on a much wider level and shouldn't be normalised. Turning it into " a job like any other" - as many would see happen - is absolutely normalisation and that normalisation takes root very quickly in upcoming generations.

At no point have I said it should be made illegal or that body autonomy should be controlled, and pointing out the issues in normalising something and "making it mainstream" is not that.

To give a comparative example; casual low-level alcoholism and binge drinking is heavily normalised in the UK (and elsewhere) to the extent that regularly getting blind drunk is seen not only as "totally normal" but in fact as "a right of passage". That mindset is pretty much set in stone in this country at this point. It causes huge problems. Does that mean I think alcohol should be banned? Or that getting blind drunk should be illegal? No, but I'm also not going to sit here and pretend that drinking daily or throwing back 15 cans every Saturday "normal" or healthy life choice either.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The entire culture is toxic and the whole concept should be banned.

We have areas of complete agreement, but again, all I would ask is that you try and provide a way that this work/platform/add your own descriptor, that pretty much everyone is aware of, can now be delegitimised to young, impressionable, underage people, planning their legal age career moves?

It can't, so this is where we are. Not hypothetically, or for better or worse, but in absolute reality. The only way I can possibly think of would be some kind of minimum age requirement; but this is actually where my socialism kicks in, with the recognition that there is no way capitalism would allow that.

[Tom4784]

Deleted Post

[Swan]

This gonna be a massive blow to Amouranth's income. She earns a bomb on twitch, licking microphones etc, but i know her only fans was earning her a **** ton also.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Sex work is work no matter how hard you clutch your pearls. It's also a slippery judgy slope. Work is work, and as long as people are doing it of their own accord and no one is getting hurt, then it's no one else's business. Making out that you don't consider work work because you don't like it is just boomer-ish behaviour, what next. You're gonna judge fast food workers next?

Sex work is something that is becoming normalised whether we like it or not. The only thing we can do is safeguard the workers to prevent abuse and the like, and make sure that people are doing it for their own reasons and not at the behest of anyone else.

I think the examples you've brought up are gross of underage people turning to OnlyFans as soon as they are of legal age, but as someone else said, the genie is out of the bottle. At that point, we can only hope that sex work is legitimised further so that workers can be protected and unionised.

Shoving it back into the dark just makes it so the wrong people do what they'll do easier.

The commoditisation of women's bodies is harmful to all women, you not understanding why that is and insisting that "no one else is getting hurt so it's no one else's business" does not mean it isn't happening. I am raising a teenage daughter in a world that's telling her it's "normal" for young girls to get naked for men for money. That the most valuable thing women have to offer the world of work is their body. It's massively harmful.

[Tom4784]

Deleted Post

[Barry.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

For I believe the 4th time - I judge the people spending the money, not those who put themselves on the platform. I have sympathy for the many who end up regretting it.
:

So why am I getting judge my dear?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Barry.

So why am I getting judge my dear?

I'm assuming you mean for spending money on onlyfans? I don't think I can answer that without getting an infraction.