[arista]

Great Live Debate was on Ch5HD AM live

He had the Doctor on a Screen
who has said this.


In Italy those refusing the Free Jab
will have to pay for it.

[Alf]

[Toy Soldier]

They should just offer cash incentive. A huge chunk of that 5 million would probably just say "**** it" and get it done for a new bathroom.

[Liam-]

You can’t force people to do something they don’t want to do, if people choose not too take the vaccine, they’re idiots, but that’s their right, they just shouldn’t be allowed to have the benefits that people who have been vaccinated are allowed, you make a choice, you face the consequences

[Toy Soldier]

On the thread topic I am 100% still against mandatory vaccines, for the record. Flat no to mandatory medical procedures. It is the step too far. And 95% uptake should be MORE than enough.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

They should just offer cash incentive. A huge chunk of that 5 million would probably just say "**** it" and get it done for a new bathroom.

Yes that worked in the USA,
in some states

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

They should just offer cash incentive. A huge chunk of that 5 million would probably just say "**** it" and get it done for a new bathroom.

If I was unvaccinated, which I may or may not be, I would happily stay at home for the rest of my life for a living wage.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Alf

If I was unvaccinated, which I may or may not be, I would happily stay at home for the rest of my life for a living wage.

I think you are

[Alf]

Originally Posted by arista

I think you are

That's fine, you're entitled to think.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

You can’t force people to do something they don’t want to do, if people choose not too take the vaccine, they’re idiots, but that’s their right, they just shouldn’t be allowed to have the benefits that people who have been vaccinated are allowed, you make a choice, you face the consequences

Speaking of "benefits", I think if the UK does enforce it, this will be how they end up doing it. There won't be jackboots kicking in doors and pinning people down to stick a needle in their arm... ... ... they'll just put pressure on employers to make vaccine passports mandatory in the workplace, and also make Covid vaccination a requirement for receiving Universal Credit benefits. They can do that quite easily; if vaccines are mandatory in workplaces then refusing vaccination without medical reasons can be deemed a barrier to seeking work, and the benefits can then be "sanctioned" down to next to nothing.

People who can't work, and can't get benefits, are probably going to find themselves backed into a corner enough to get vaccinated.

Final hold-outs will be people who are self employed who can't be caught in either of those traps. But if they start making it mandatory for businesses people to require tradespeople etc. show their vaccination status before entering... and encourage households to do the same...

Note again, I'm actually against all of the above, I think this is basically the same as it being mandatory, and a step too far. Education and encouragement should be the way to do it (and again, 95% uptake should be more than enough).

My exception to this is healthcare - I do think vaccination should be mandatory to work in healthcare. People have the right to refuse vaccination... they don't have the right to put vulnerable patients at risk. They have NEVER had that right; all sorts of documentation is required to work with vulnerable people and always has been, long before Covid. My wife had to get her immunities checked and vaccinations updated before she worked in addictions services, for example (Hep B double vaccine, measles booster). People are acting like this is a "new" condition of employment. It isn't!

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

On the thread topic I am 100% still against mandatory vaccines, for the record. Flat no to mandatory medical procedures. It is the step too far. And 95% uptake should be MORE than enough.

I don’t think people should be forced to have it I also don’t agree with people being given money to have it.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

If I was unvaccinated, which I may or may not be, I would happily stay at home for the rest of my life for a living wage.

I'm vaccinated and I get to do that anyway for way more than living wage .

(In all seriousness cabin fever is actually really bad and I can't wait to be able to get back into the office more regularly... staying at home all the time gets old )

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

I also don’t agree with people being given money to have it.

Why not?

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm vaccinated and I get to do that anyway for way more than living wage .

(In all seriousness cabin fever is actually really bad and I can't wait to be able to get back into the office more regularly... staying at home all the time gets old )

We have noticed

[parmnion]

This would mean forcing jehova witnesses to have the vaccine....good luck with that mama britain.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Speaking of "benefits", I think if the UK does enforce it, this will be how they end up doing it. There won't be jackboots kicking in doors and pinning people down to stick a needle in their arm... ... ... they'll just put pressure on employers to make vaccine passports mandatory in the workplace, and also make Covid vaccination a requirement for receiving Universal Credit benefits. They can do that quite easily; if vaccines are mandatory in workplaces then refusing vaccination without medical reasons can be deemed a barrier to seeking work, and the benefits can then be "sanctioned" down to next to nothing.

People who can't work, and can't get benefits, are probably going to find themselves backed into a corner enough to get vaccinated.

Final hold-outs will be people who are self employed who can't be caught in either of those traps. But if they start making it mandatory for businesses people to require tradespeople etc. show their vaccination status before entering... and encourage households to do the same...

Note again, I'm actually against all of the above, I think this is basically the same as it being mandatory, and a step too far. Education and encouragement should be the way to do it (and again, 95% uptake should be more than enough).

My exception to this is healthcare - I do think vaccination should be mandatory to work in healthcare. People have the right to refuse vaccination... they don't have the right to put vulnerable patients at risk. They have NEVER had that right; all sorts of documentation is required to work with vulnerable people and always has been, long before Covid. My wife had to get her immunities checked and vaccinations updated before she worked in addictions services, for example (Hep B double vaccine, measles booster). People are acting like this is a "new" condition of employment. It isn't!

I just meant not being allowed to go to concerts, shows and any private businesses that require people to have their passports, those benefits, not pushing the unvaccinated into forced poverty

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Why not?

Rewarding people that are ignorant
Even if they get the jab they are protecting themselves not you or me, we have done that by getting the jabs

[Liam-]

Yeah, financially rewarding the ignorant doesn’t seem like the best can of worms to open

[arista]

['Why all adults in the UK should
be made to have Covid jabs': As Austria makes vaccines mandatory,
a GP who has worked through the pandemic
and seen its shattering effect argues the case

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...gues-case.html


Dr David Lloyd is a GP
who supports mandatory vaccination,
at least for adults — arguing that there
should be a fine for those
who refuse to comply
Yes, it is controversial, but I am a GP who
supports mandatory vaccination,
at least for adults — and what's more,
there should be a fine for those who refuse to comply.

As someone who has been on the frontline
of this thing (and who is in the unusual
position of splitting my work between
Covid patients and non-Covid patients),
I strongly believe that the time has
come for the UK to take a stronger line,
as European countries are doing.

Frankly, we have no other choice,
because asking people to be vaccinated
is simply not working and the anti-vaxxers
are threatening our recovery.

And it's time to do it now.]

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Rewarding people that are ignorant
Even if they get the jab they are protecting themselves not you or me, we have done that by getting the jabs

Originally Posted by Liam-

Yeah, financially rewarding the ignorant doesn’t seem like the best can of worms to open

To be fair, yes, I didn't think this through - if there was a similar vaccination drive in future, people who would have been perfectly happy to get vaccinated would probably "hold out" until incentives were offered .

[bitontheslide]

being vaccinated doesn't stop a person catching covid or spreading it, so what exactly is the problem with remaining unvaccinated if that is your choice?


The media as usual have a lot to answer for, stirring up fear of the "unclean" when you can just as easy get covid from a vaccinated person

Also, this drive to get the world vaccinated is complete bollox too. The reason given is to stop new variants mutating, but the simple fact is, we can't ever stop it mutating, and the more it mutates, the more likely it will become a harmless virus.

We are being fed lies and fear, and the majority are just swallowing it hook line and sinker.

Vaccination is a personal choice

[Liam-]

It is a choice, but just like every other choices we make, this one comes with consequences, if you know that only vaccinated people are allowed into certain places or allowed to do certain things, choosing to remain unvaccinated means you purposefully choose to not be a part of those things

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

being vaccinated doesn't stop a person catching covid or spreading it, so what exactly is the problem with remaining unvaccinated if that is your choice?


The media as usual have a lot to answer for, stirring up fear of the "unclean" when you can just as easy get covid from a vaccinated person

Also, this drive to get the world vaccinated is complete bollox too. The reason given is to stop new variants mutating, but the simple fact is, we can't ever stop it mutating, and the more it mutates, the more likely it will become a harmless virus.

We are being fed lies and fear, and the majority are just swallowing it hook line and sinker.

Vaccination is a personal choice

We still have the issue of the drain on healthcare resources, for example, you need ventilators to carry out ANY procedure under general anaesthetic, from an emergency surgery after a car accident to a schedules hip replacement and having them taken up by Covid cases in ICU continues to create an absolutely insane backlog. That part is not scaremongering - it's at catastrophic levels at this point. What's the solution? To say "OK don't get a vaccine but that means you don't get a ventilator if you get severely ill"? (Thankfully) the healthcare service doesn't work like that either and people have a right to treatment even if it's caused by their own bad decisions.

Vaccination also does dramatically reduce the likelihood of catching and spreading Covid - I don't know where the myth that it makes no difference comes from. You still CAN catch and CAN spread Covid whilst vaccinated, but it's less likely (that you will catch it, and also milder cases spread less easily).

However on that front - like I said 95% uptake should be more than enough, 100% uptake is a very unrealistic target for any vaccine, e.g. measles was all but eradicated (from being extremely common) with far less than 95% vaccine uptake. And measles is extremely contagious.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

We still have the issue of the drain on healthcare resources, for example, you need ventilators to carry out ANY procedure under general anaesthetic, from an emergency surgery after a car accident to a schedules hip replacement and having them taken up by Covid cases in ICU continues to create an absolutely insane backlog. That part is not scaremongering - it's at catastrophic levels at this point. What's the solution? To say "OK don't get a vaccine but that means you don't get a ventilator if you get severely ill"? (Thankfully) the healthcare service doesn't work like that either and people have a right to treatment even if it's caused by their own bad decisions.

Vaccination also does dramatically reduce the likelihood of catching and spreading Covid - I don't know where the myth that it makes no difference comes from. You still CAN catch and CAN spread Covid whilst vaccinated, but it's less likely (that you will catch it, and also milder cases spread less easily).

However on that front - like I said 95% uptake should be more than enough, 100% uptake is a very unrealistic target for any vaccine, e.g. measles was all but eradicated (from being extremely common) with far less than 95% vaccine uptake. And measles is extremely contagious.

it's not the drain on resources it was in 2020. The economy is back on the right track. By next year, i would be surprised if its any more of a drain than flu on resources

Child vaccination is something that really irks me. A child is not going to be affected by covid unless they have other serious issues, but they are vaccinating kids to reduce school disruption, and i think that is way over the ethical line

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

it's not the drain on resources it was in 2020. The economy is back on the right track. By next year, i would be surprised if its any more of a drain than flu on resources

Child vaccination is something that really irks me. A child is not going to be affected by covid unless they have other serious issues, but they are vaccinating kids to reduce school disruption, and i think that is way over the ethical line

It's not AS much of a drain but it is still a drain; when there are surges there are still a lot of people who have been due planned surgeries and had them already delayed for months, having them rescheduled again because of ventilators being taken up by Covid cases in ICU.

Of course the MORE sensible way to get around that issue would be for the government to invest more into properly stocking and equipping the NHS, but they're still on a mission to underfund it so that it seems unfit for purpose to justify creeping privatisation. But that's a whole other issue!