[Toy Soldier]

The zeitgeist of it all has heavy roots in post-structuralism but like... baby-brain understanding of post-structuralism (which even at it's most solid has plenty of scope for critique).

The irony of it being post-structuralist is that it is anchored in an obsessive need for defining and labelling. That's literally what all of it is about. In fact for those who buy into the current dogma there seems to be some sort of untethered existential turmoil that can only be calmed BY excessive labelling, and by rejecting anything that strays from or questions those labels or mantras... which doesn't gel with post-structuralist logic at all.

tl;dr much of it is (literally) inherently illogical but there's an almost mocking defiantly flippant stock-retort that is, essentially, "it doesn't matter if it's illogical you just have to accept it and everything will be fine".

Some homework if anyone is up for it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-structuralism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermodernity

I'm suspecting not

[Toy Soldier]

For a quick example, the entire concept of the gender spectrum relies in the postmodernist concept of there being no objective reality, no objective fact, only social constructs and perceptions of reality that are equally valid in their "realness".

This is what allows for gender not to match natal sex. It underpins the whole thing. The concept of there being no way to objectively make statements that hold true for all.

...

The same people defined by/completely buying into this philosophical concept will then - completely devoid of irony - hit you with;

"Trans women ARE women - say it with me! No debate!"



Honestly I personally believe that these things being thrown around by people, mostly parrotted with absolutely no identifiable progression of thought, and completely contradicting entire lynchpin philosophical concepts of their own beliefs in order to make another point 2 minutes later, is EXACTLY what leads to the frustration/anxiety/anger/panic that drives "cancel culture" and the idea that debate or diversion from the established rhetoric is "literally murder". The debate stage has legs made of uncooked spaghetti tied together with thread. So yes there are going to be casualties. Mental breakdown occurs when a person can no longer reconcile their internal reality with the information being presented to them. Worth some thought for those who find the debate scary I think.

[LeatherTrumpet]

2 great posts TS

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

if its semantics and what you belive id imagine if you said your neighbour said they beleived that they owned your car and would like the keys and said that they dont recognise your ownership

you would say f off?

Women believe they own half of your stuff and when you get a divorce you find out it’s true

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Women believe they own half of your stuff and when you get a divorce you find out it’s true

To be fair this is just because (thanks to patriarchy) men tend to be the higher earners.

My wife's career is absolutely flying and she's likely to be fairly high-income well within the decade... ... ... if she ever decides to kick me to the kerb you can bet your arse I'm taking half of her stuff on the way out the door .

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To be fair this is just because (thanks to patriarchy) men tend to be the higher earners.

My wife's career is absolutely flying and she's likely to be fairly high-income well within the decade... ... ... if she ever decides to kick me to the kerb you can bet your arse I'm taking half of her stuff on the way out the door .

All you will end up with is a car full of old shoes and some half empty perfume bottles.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Every answer is correct based on a person’s belief

If you believe something to be true then for you it is the correct answer even though it can be proven to be wrong
But even when the answer can be proven to wrong it’s only wrong because you believe your answer to be right

No every answer is not correct when you're asking for an actual definition of a word, there is the correct definition

Woman - Adult Human Female

and there is the definition that isn't actually a definition at all

Woman - A person who identifies as a woman

That doesn't tell you what a woman is? That's like say the definition of a cat is something that looks like a cat. You're still none the wiser of what a cat actually is.

Originally Posted by Mitchell

I don’t particularly know much about the judiciary system, so don’t feel qualified to answer that, I do know that it’s a complex issue, and one that I certainly wouldn’t be able to resolve.

It isn't a complex issue at all, identify however you want, wear what you want to wear but biological sex isn't up for debate and it matters and is a protected characteristic. Gender replacing sex is going to disadvantage women, saying a woman is whoever says they are woman makes the word meaningless and will fail to protect biological women and girls who need that word to describe and protect ourselves.

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

I thought she had a link to a website that sold anti-Trans T-shirts or something like that.

And didn't she also say that "real women menstrate" which biologically is obviously true, but I can definitely understand why Trans-women might get offended at that comment.

But on the other hand, I do also understand some of her arguments, I think personally that we need a third school of certain Sports where Trans Women and Cis Women that volunteer to take part can take part, and the Cis Women that feel uncomfortable with competing against Trans Women get to take part in the Cis Women competition.

And I'd consider maybe adding the mix Cis/Trans Women as a third Bathroom option for Trans Women to use obviously, but any Cis Women that don't mind sharing a Bathroom with Trans Women can also use the facility as well if they wish.

Because let's be brutally honest here people, J.K Rowling isn't the only person in the Cis Woman community to feel uncomfortable about these topics, and it does need to be addressed without people threatening her on Twitter.

I know she wore a T-Shirt with a slogan on it saying "This Witch won't burn" or something similar which i thought was quite clever really considering she created Harry potter plus a throw back to women being vilified as TERFs witches.

She didn't say "Real women Menstruate" She objected to women being referred to as "People who menstruate" instead of as women. Which as a woman I find pretty dehumanising and offensive (seems like only some people are allowed to dictate how they are and are not referred to though.) I will also add, it is ALWAYS women who are being referred to in these derogatory ways too, our medical literature changes us from women to "People with a cervix" while it's still just "men" who get Prostate cancer, not "Prostate havers"

Originally Posted by Mitchell

As a cis male, I have absolutely no issue sharing a bathroom or a changing room with trans men, obviously if they’re then committing crimes against other people, that’s a completely different issue, but I feel like everyone deserves to be comfortable and safe, regardless of their gender identity.

With your last point, I’d hope that someone with actual respect for cis women and trans people would find a solution, rather than a notorious bigot.

With all due respect Mitchell as a man you can be as comfortable as you like with transmen or women using the male facilities but that is no real comparison to women having to share with biological men and you know that. Women are not a Physical or sexual threat to men in anywhere near the same way as men are to women

Originally Posted by Jordan.

For every one person going lengths to find an exploit to abuse women there are thousands that use no excuse. Of course the former makes for the best clickbaity articles though.

Absolutely true, however just because men will find ways to abuse women in other ways doesn't mean you make it easier for them by throwing away safe guarding because **** it it's going to happen anyway, right?

[Liam-]

I mean, let’s be perfectly honest here, is there any need for a debate really? People who are adamantly against the idea of trans people being the same as them, for whatever reason, are not going to change their minds for anything, that’s perfectly clear and the only time they’ll ever say a trans person is ‘honest’ or ‘balanced’ in the ‘debate’ is if they agree with them.

For me personally, the whole anti-trans movement really just reflects the age old story of the bullied kid, becoming a bully once they start to fit in, women have obviously been historically victimised throughout the ages, that’s not something that can be argued, but I think now a lot of the women who are a part of this hate campaign against the trans community, are doing it because they enjoy the fact that there’s a demographic of people that they can now feel like they have a semblance of power over, do I think there are some people with actual concerns? Yes, but at this point, they’ve attached their flags to the wrong people at the wrong time and their arguments are being drowned out by the plainly hateful, bigoted people they’ve aligned themselves with, unfortunately.

[bitontheslide]

i'm not anti trans, i'm just protective of biological womens rights. I'm certainly not going to change that stance, that's for sure

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Yes, but at this point, they’ve attached their flags to the wrong people at the wrong time and their arguments are being drowned out by the plainly hateful, bigoted people they’ve aligned themselves with, unfortunately.

Who should they be rallying against, if not the people trying to take away their woman-only spaces?

Originally Posted by Mitchell

As a cis male, I have absolutely no issue sharing a bathroom or a changing room with trans men, obviously if they’re then committing crimes against other people, that’s a completely different issue, but I feel like everyone deserves to be comfortable and safe, regardless of their gender identity.

Thing is, men are the (perceived) danger against woman. A transman entering men's spaces isn't the same as a transwoman entering women's spaces.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I mean, let’s be perfectly honest here, is there any need for a debate really? People who are adamantly against the idea of trans people being the same as them, for whatever reason, are not going to change their minds for anything, that’s perfectly clear and the only time they’ll ever say a trans person is ‘honest’ or ‘balanced’ in the ‘debate’ is if they agree with them.

For me personally, the whole anti-trans movement really just reflects the age old story of the bullied kid, becoming a bully once they start to fit in, women have obviously been historically victimised throughout the ages, that’s not something that can be argued, but I think now a lot of the women who are a part of this hate campaign against the trans community, are doing it because they enjoy the fact that there’s a demographic of people that they can now feel like they have a semblance of power over, do I think there are some people with actual concerns? Yes, but at this point, they’ve attached their flags to the wrong people at the wrong time and their arguments are being drowned out by the plainly hateful, bigoted people they’ve aligned themselves with, unfortunately.

Yes there is absolutely a need for debate.

It isn't an "anti-trans" movement it's a women's rights movement. Are you really claiming that women, who have pretty much always been the strongest allies to the LGB community and included the "T" in that too up until the demands and complete change of our language has been forced upon us in recent years, have suddenly just turned into full on evil bullies for no apparent reason? Are you really saying the only thing that was stopping women from being bullying assholes before is that we had no one weaker than us?

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yes there's is absolutely a need for debate.

It isn't an "anti-trans" movement it's a women's rights movement. Are you really claiming that women, who have pretty much always been the strongest allies to the LGB community and included the "T" in that too up until the demands and complete change of our language has been forced upon us in recent years, have suddenly just turned into full on evil bullies for no apparent reason? Are you really saying the only thing that was stopping women from being bullying assholes before is that we had no one weaker than us?

I think a lot of women have a chip on their shoulder from historical oppression, which is understandable, but they’re taking that chip and using it as an excuse to seize a moment where they can feel like they now have a little bit of power over people like they’ve never had before, yes, is that all women? Obviously not, but those people tend to be the loudest of the anti-trans movement.

It’s the same as a lot of gay men being misogynistic, because nothing makes insecure people feel better about themselves than being a part of something that brings other people down.

[Niamh.]

And to add, who the **** is actually being "bullied" here? It's women who are the ones losing their jobs, being silenced on Social media from being pushed out (or attempted to be pushed out) of their own creations, just for speaking up about matters that absolutely concern us, our safety, fairness and our right to privacy. You have some nerve saying "the age old story" it is the age old story, the age old story of women being pushed around by men and told to shut up when we object

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I think a lot of women have a chip on their shoulder from historical oppression, which is understandable, but they’re taking that chip and using it as an excuse to seize a moment where they can feel like they now have a little bit of power over people like they’ve never had before, yes, is that all women? Obviously not, but those people tend to be the loudest of the anti-trans movement.

It’s the same as a lot of gay men being misogynistic, because nothing makes insecure people feel better about themselves than being a part of something that brings other people down.

A chip on our shoulder, interesting phrase to use.

I can't understand how you can look at the issues that are raised -

fairness and safety in sport

Safety from predators who would use this (and have used this) as a way to get access to vulnerable women or women in vulnerable positions such as Prisons, Changing rooms, Bathrooms, Spas etc

and still say that it's just women abusing some new found power we have (disagree completely with this assessment btw) and not based on genuine and very real issues

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

A chip on our shoulder, interesting phrase to use.

I can't understand how you can look at the issues that are raised -

fairness and safety in sport

Safety from predators who would use this (and have used this) as a way to get access to vulnerable women or women in vulnerable positions such as Prisons, Changing rooms, Bathrooms, Spas etc

and still say that it's just women abusing some new found power we have (disagree completely with this assessment btw) and not based on genuine and very real issues

If you’re gonna disagree with things I’ve said, you should at least understand the things I’ve said first.

I did say that some people may have genuine concerns, that’s not a question, but those concerns are now deeply embedded within an anti-trans movement that in my view, is majorly based in hatred and bigotry, those concerns are being used by bigots as a stick to beat down an entire demographic of people, just for being who they are and if it was any other demographic, it would definitely not be allowed to happen..

And also to your point of, ‘who’s being bullied’ people are losing jobs or support or whatever, violent crimes against trans people have quadrupled over the past couple of years, people are being physically attacked and often times killed, for who they are, so please, save some of your empathy for the people who are actually having harm done to them over this shall we.

[Toy Soldier]

Are disingenuous hateful people quick to pick up a banner if they think they can use it as an excuse to say what they like? Yes, absolutely... I've seen enough gammon suddenly and bewildering declare themselves trans allies in order to attack women online to know that's the case. Those men do not give a stuff about trans people. They've found a loophole that allows them (they think) to be misogynistic so long as they "aim it at a TERF".

But yes it would be false to say that doesn't happen in any cause.

On the flipside though; are people going to deny that valid, genuine, open requests for discussion are disingenuous BRANDED "hatefulness" and "bullying", using the presence of a small number of hateful people to do so?

I'm not really sure how to address the "is there a need for a debate" question. On Tibb? In general? In general, the answer is an obvious and resounding "yes of course there is" and I don't even know how to start explaining why to someone who doesn't find that obvious. There is always need. Dogma is no one's friend.

On Tibb? Hmmm is there a "need", probably not, because there isn't a "need" for any debate (or any post at all) on Tibb. No one has ever been here because they needed to be. It's not really the point. So whether there's a need or not, it's going to happen anyway. Engagement is the choice.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

If you’re gonna disagree with things I’ve said, you should at least understand the things I’ve said first.

I did say that some people may have genuine concerns, that’s not a question, but those concerns are now deeply embedded within an anti-trans movement that in my view, is majorly based in hatred and bigotry, those concerns are being used by bigots as a stick to beat down an entire demographic of people, just for being who they are and if it was any other demographic, it would definitely not be allowed to happen..

And also to your point of, ‘who’s being bullied’ people are losing jobs or support or whatever, violent crimes against trans people have quadrupled over the past couple of years, people are being physically attacked and often times killed, for who they are, so please, save some of your empathy for the people who are actually having harm done to them over this shall we.

I see people make these claims all the time but where are all the stories of these attacks happening? When was the last time a transperson was murdered in the UK for example or in Ireland? I can give you 2 very recent cases of women being attacked and murdered by men though in both countries.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I did say that some people may have genuine concerns, that’s not a question, but those concerns are now deeply embedded within an anti-trans movement that in my view, is majorly based in hatred and bigotry, those concerns are being used by bigots as a stick to beat down an entire demographic of people, just for being who they are and if it was any other demographic, it would definitely not be allowed to happen.

Honestly I think you're looking at this backwards and if you were to really dig into it, you'd find that what were in the vast majority people looking to air and discuss simple concerns and have them taken seriously were met with a wave of anger, resentment and refusal to engage and that has created a combative environment all round with people being driven to the more extreme fringes over time. Is that a good thing? Absolutely not but (unfortunately as we all know too well by now) pack mentality and tribalism is part of human nature. It's a huge part of LGBTQ as well. Are there obvious and very understandable reasons for that? Yes of course there are. But it would be a lie to say its not a thing.

The "Stonewall method" created an environment where proper reasoned debate of this issue - even in an academic setting - is nearly impossible and at absolute best a massive risk.

So with that off the table, yeah... You don't get silence, you get volleys of anger. Inevitability. It was a bad idea to shut down and vilify reasonable debate but that's what happened .

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I see people make these claims all the time but where are all the stories of these attacks happening? When was the last time a transperson was murdered in the UK for example or in Ireland? I can give you 2 very recent cases of women being attacked and murdered by men though in both countries.

So you need to see individual cases slapped over the media, to believe that targeted hate crimes against the trans community have rocketed?

I mean, if you want to go for the, i didn’t see it, it didn’t happen defence then you crack on I suppose

[Jordan.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I see people make these claims all the time but where are all the stories of these attacks happening? When was the last time a transperson was murdered in the UK for example or in Ireland? I can give you 2 very recent cases of women being attacked and murdered by men though in both countries.

The same could be said about women being attacked or abused by transwomen? Whilst of course it does happen it is rare and isolated cases. It's not the widespread issue the disproportionate amount of outrage would have you to believe. There is more chance of a woman being abused by another woman than any transperson.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

So you need to see individual cases slapped over the media, to believe that targeted hate crimes against the trans community have rocketed?

I mean, if you want to go for the, i didn’t see it, it didn’t happen defence then you crack on I suppose

Well if it's been used in an argument to prove that it's not actually women who are being bullied in this debate it's transpeople then yeah I'd like to see some evidence of that. If it truly has rocketed as you say where are all the news stories? The figures backing that up?

I asked you a simple question, back up this pretty big claim you made and instead of doing that (which should be an easy thing to show) You tried to make me feel bad for daring to ask

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jordan.

The same could be said about women being attacked or abused by transwomen? Whilst of course it does happen it is rare and isolated cases. It's not the widespread issue the disproportionate amount of outrage would have you to believe. There is more chance of a woman being abused by another woman than any transperson.

I could find you evidence of that happening.

If you give me a few minutes I'll be happy to fish out some stories

"There is more chance of a woman being abused by another woman than any transperson."

I suppose there is as there are a lot more women than transwomen in the world, so by law of averages yeah I would imagine that's correct however transwomen are biologically male and so pose a much greater threat to woman than another woman would.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well if it's been used in an argument to prove that it's not actually women who are being bullied in this debate it's transpeople then yeah I'd like to see some evidence of that. If it truly has rocketed as you say where are all the news stories? The figures backing that up?

I asked you a simple question, back up this pretty big claim you made and instead of doing that (which should be an easy thing to show) You tried to make me feel bad for daring to ask

There was a report done by the bbc in 2020 based on government findings on the those sharp rise in anti-trans hate crimes.

But tbh, I don’t think there’s much point in all of this, because you seem very determined to not accept anything that goes against your views on tans people or women being the ultimate societal victims

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

There was a report done by the bbc in 2020 based on government findings on the those sharp rise in anti-trans hate crimes.

But tbh, I don’t think there’s much point in all of this, because you seem very determined to not accept anything that goes against your views on tans people or women being the ultimate societal victims

I'd be absolutely interested in reading that report. Do you have a link?

Out of curiosity, if you can remember from reading that report were those transpeople being attacked by women?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jordan.

The same could be said about women being attacked or abused by transwomen? Whilst of course it does happen it is rare and isolated cases. It's not the widespread issue the disproportionate amount of outrage would have you to believe. There is more chance of a woman being abused by another woman than any transperson.

Sorry I just wanted to come back to this post again because what i should have added was, it's not really about transwomen being dangerous to women per se, the issue is MEN are dangerous to women, we know this. And the issue is not being able to define what a woman is, rendering the word meaningless and therefore opening the doors to places where women are vulnerable to anyone and everyone - as apparently a woman is just someone who says they are a women