[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You're only looking at one side of the coin and it's not even sociological realistic. The general population has not "become right wing". Parties like Labour and the Democrats in the US adopted rhetoric (not economic, social) that they MISTAKENLY thought was popular/vote winning and it was not; it was loud voices. Loud voices on the far right, loud voices on the far left, but few in number, not the tides you need to consistently win elections. The bulk of the population - which is dotted around the centre - stood relatively still but found themselves with no political home on the left so moved over to the right under the guise of them "speaking sense". They were duped, of course, but that's largely irrelevant to this part of the discussion.

I can tell you who are the far right politicians, why they are far right, and what policies they espouse. I'd just like for someone to talk directly about who these folks on the far left are, and what are their policy aims. Until you or anyone else is willing to do that, then it's a discussion based around make believe.

If folks around the centre keep voting tory, then they are not in the centre (that would be the same if they kept voting labour, and that's a major problem with centrism, it's little more than status-quo protection, with zero policies and zero ideas). If we'd had labour govs for the majority of our lives, the centrists would align closer to labour.

When the lib dems got a whiff of power they went full on right wing. I remember them bragging about trading a 5p cost on plastic bags with making it harder for disabled people to claim benefits. That's centrism in a nutshell.

When the world skews one way or another the the centre skews itself too.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I can tell you who "i think"are the "far right" politicians, why "I think" they are "far right", and what policies "I think" they espouse.

I think

that is fair

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I think

that is fair

Why do you keep posting nonsense under my posts? It's really weird and creepy.

[The Slim Reaper]

AOC posted this a couple of mins ago...

[Alf]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

AOC posted this a couple of mins ago...

What is extreme about wanting to sue someone who terminates a life? That's quite a reasonable position to take. Obviously AOC has exaggerated this a bit by claiming it's only rapists asking for this.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I can tell you who are the far right politicians, why they are far right, and what policies they espouse. I'd just like for someone to talk directly about who these folks on the far left are, and what are their policy aims. Until you or anyone else is willing to do that, then it's a discussion based around make believe.

I mean it's unlikely to be me since I've already said twice that I think (or rather, observe) both US parties (and both UK parties since Corbyn got nowhere) are right of center. There are no far left, or even left at all, politicians in power or high-profile opposition in either country.

Both Labour and the Dems have politicians who like to appeal to a section of society that are commonly CALLED "the left" (a misnomer, as I said above, not actual socialists other than performatively). I refer to them as the hyperindividualists. Some might call it "wokeism". I can't really point to policies they espouse because they aren't policies, so much as a collection of mantras and slogans with little of any actual thought behind them; "transwomen are women", "defund the police", "let's just stop using oil all of a sudden that'll be fine derp derp" or whatever the cause du jour that allows them to get shouty and feel righteous happens to be that week.

There are politicians who love to slap a little paw around that nose ring and get the bear dancing (they never actually have to enact anything because no one will ever put any actual groundwork into these "ideas" beyond bleating into a megaphone now and then.)

So... Those?

If folks around the centre keep voting tory, then they are not in the centre (that would be the same if they kept voting labour, and that's a major problem with centrism, it's little more than status-quo protection, with zero policies and zero ideas). If we'd had labour govs for the majority of our lives, the centrists would align closer to labour.



When the lib dems got a whiff of power they went full on right wing. I remember them bragging about trading a 5p cost on plastic bags with making it harder for disabled people to claim benefits. That's centrism in a nutshell.



When the world skews one way or another the the centre skews itself too.

Yes I said it's status quo protection (in other words) and that people are duped into it. These are not people who are "right-leaning", they're non-political, and if you were to give them a nice big survey, the results would be a scattershot of policies that are largely centrist. They vote Tory because the Tories are spinning them a more comfortable story.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Therein lies the reality of the modern world. When Obama tried to help with the provision of healthcare he was called a communist for introducing a slighter better than they had, capitalist healthcare system. I agree they aren't big issues, and shouldn't be regarded as historically far left, yet the world has moved so far right, we have conservatives over here, perfectly fine with banning protests, allowing the elections to be handled in a purely partisan manner, law breaking by their representatives etc, etc.

This is the actual world we live in, one where anything that shows the slightest bit of compassion is derided as far left or cancel culture. In a world where corporations are working with governments to take away any ability to redress the balance, and people are cheering on their rights being cancelled before their very eyes whilst believing they are fighting against cancellation.

And that's why no one wants to answer when it comes to policy examples of this out-of-control left (that still has absolutely no power).

The left side gets abused and insulted on a daily basis by the very people who like to play victim and claim they're being "silenced" . I've lost count the overuse of things like "woke" & "snowflake" . Corbyn was repeatedly called a "socialist" like it was a dirty awful thing . The far right & the extreme wing will always twist the narrative. Musk will happily give these loud obnoxious idiots a platform.

There's movies that make fun of the left side /liberals by either making them stereotypes or making them act stupid , yet people on the other side of politics still sulk and moan about these things saying how " woke" & "millennial" it is and basically how dare the movie writers put these things into the plot . I honestly think they won't be happy until they themselves ban the very thing they claim they don't have which is ' freedom of speech', that phrase gets thrown around so much .

And everything about Musk is so irritating especially his dumb frozen face.

[bitontheslide]

Biden has been an unmitigated disaster so far in his presidency. If the dems want to be taken seriously, that has to change. Until then, they are giving air to the GoP

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

The left side gets abused and insulted on a daily basis by the very people who like to play victim and claim they're being "silenced" . I've lost count the overuse of things like "woke" & "snowflake" . Corbyn was repeatedly called a "socialist" like it was a dirty awful thing . The far right & the extreme wing will always twist the narrative. Musk will happily give these loud obnoxious idiots a platform.

There's movies that make fun of the left side /liberals by either making them stereotypes or making them act stupid , yet people on the other side of politics still sulk and moan about these things saying how " woke" & "millennial" it is and basically how dare the movie writers put these things into the plot . I honestly think they won't be happy until they themselves ban the very thing they claim they don't have which is ' freedom of speech', that phrase gets thrown around so much .

And everything about Musk is so irritating especially his dumb frozen face.

"There's movies that make fun of the left side /liberals by either making them stereotypes or making them act stupid , yet people on the other side of politics still sulk and moan about these things saying how " woke" & "millennial" it is and basically how dare the movie writers put these things into the plot . "

can you name say 2 movies that both make fun of "the left" and yet the "right" moan about the movie and say its woke?

[Nicky91]

aw boo hoo loser Musk feeling (rightfully) threatened by the democratic party


time to get rid of all those upper class morons, major taxes for them and give it to the middle class

[bitontheslide]

Musk is the richest man in the world, not my definition of a loser

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I mean it's unlikely to be me since I've already said twice that I think (or rather, observe) both US parties (and both UK parties since Corbyn got nowhere) are right of center. There are no far left, or even left at all, politicians in power or high-profile opposition in either country.

Both Labour and the Dems have politicians who like to appeal to a section of society that are commonly CALLED "the left" (a misnomer, as I said above, not actual socialists other than performatively). I refer to them as the hyperindividualists. Some might call it "wokeism". I can't really point to policies they espouse because they aren't policies, so much as a collection of mantras and slogans with little of any actual thought behind them; "transwomen are women", "defund the police", "let's just stop using oil all of a sudden that'll be fine derp derp" or whatever the cause du jour that allows them to get shouty and feel righteous happens to be that week.

There are politicians who love to slap a little paw around that nose ring and get the bear dancing (they never actually have to enact anything because no one will ever put any actual groundwork into these "ideas" beyond bleating into a megaphone now and then.)

So... Those?





Yes I said it's status quo protection (in other words) and that people are duped into it. These are not people who are "right-leaning", they're non-political, and if you were to give them a nice big survey, the results would be a scattershot of policies that are largely centrist. They vote Tory because the Tories are spinning them a more comfortable story.

So this is where you always wanted to go, and I understand why. It's just a further continuation of the othering of trans people, and I'll be honest, it's really bizarre. In order to maintain that position, then anyone not aligned with anti-trans movements also have to be othered as far left. I believe you've hit a blind spot. That's human, and I've spoken about my own previous blind spots so I'm not using it to attack or dismiss what you're saying, merely to try and explain it.

You're so vague, that if Alf was you and you were me, you'd see straight through the lack of any real substance, so lets begin with the far left mantras. Initially, when defund the police was first mentioned, you understood the nuance involved and that it wasn't actually about defunding the police, it was about different ways to allocate resources. You saw that and understood it. No one is really talking about that these days at all, but you used that as an example of a far left mantra, which incidentally was used by republicans against dems in 2020. These are right wing culture wars that you've bought into and are fighting.

Wokeness is little more than anti-bigotry. It really is that simple, but its a lot harder to make the argument that being anti-racist is bad, so it was rebranded as SJW's, snowflakes, and wokeism. It's collectivist messaging for the protection of the increasing number of open and proud bigots.

There's just nothing here - even trans acceptance is generally more about age than pretending its a far left mantra. There is more acceptance within the labour party (now a centre right party), than the cons, but I think we'd see that result when it comes to the acceptance of any minority.

I'm glad you brought up lab and lib-dem, because labour was set up as a purely left wing, trade unionist party, and now we're talking about politicians that might offer a bit of toffee to left that we both accept will never materialise, in the same thread that's about a far left that's out of control. I saw Lab attacking the LD's from the right on crime and drugs the other day. It shows how far this country has been dragged way across to the right.

The far left are a group of nameless and faceless people who won't reveal themselves and don't support policies beyond trans rights or defund the police, they believe the planet is screwed (another more age-focussed issue) and they show this with Hari Krishna-esque messaging. Is that a fair if slightly facetious summary of what you're saying?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

So this is where you always wanted to go, and I understand why. It's just a further continuation of the othering of trans people, and I'll be honest, it's really bizarre. In order to maintain that position, then anyone not aligned with anti-trans movements also have to be othered as far left. I believe you've hit a blind spot. That's human, and I've spoken about my own previous blind spots so I'm not using it to attack or dismiss what you're saying, merely to try and explain it.

You're so vague, that if Alf was you and you were me, you'd see straight through the lack of any real substance, so lets begin with the far left mantras. Initially, when defund the police was first mentioned, you understood the nuance involved and that it wasn't actually about defunding the police, it was about different ways to allocate resources. You saw that and understood it. No one is really talking about that these days at all, but you used that as an example of a far left mantra, which incidentally was used by republicans against dems in 2020. These are right wing culture wars that you've bought into and are fighting.

Wokeness is little more than anti-bigotry. It really is that simple, but its a lot harder to make the argument that being anti-racist is bad, so it was rebranded as SJW's, snowflakes, and wokeism. It's collectivist messaging for the protection of the increasing number of open and proud bigots.

There's just nothing here - even trans acceptance is generally more about age than pretending its a far left mantra. There is more acceptance within the labour party (now a centre right party), than the cons, but I think we'd see that result when it comes to the acceptance of any minority.

I'm glad you brought up lab and lib-dem, because labour was set up as a purely left wing, trade unionist party, and now we're talking about politicians that might offer a bit of toffee to left that we both accept will never materialise, in the same thread that's about a far left that's out of control. I saw Lab attacking the LD's from the right on crime and drugs the other day. It shows how far this country has been dragged way across to the right.

The far left are a group of nameless and faceless people who won't reveal themselves and don't support policies beyond trans rights or defund the police, they believe the planet is screwed (another more age-focussed issue) and they show this with Hari Krishna-esque messaging. Is that a fair if slightly facetious summary of what you're saying?

It's not about "othering transpeople", it's about hyperindividualism and identity politics. Is there a lot of that in most trans rights movements - especially the current wave of anti-intellectual "no debate" activism - certainly there is but it's not about that at all. You say I'm struggling to define what this group is but, funnily enough, I think that's because you have a blind spot... you don't think that the group exists or, if you do, you don't think there's any issue with it and "that's that". I think the idea of even considering butts up against some sort of perceived "immorality".

Did I and do I still understand the actual thinking behind "defund the police"? Yes absolutely, I understand what the people who started the movement were getting at. My horror is that 90+% of the people pulling their boots on to march for it appear not to. Did I and do I still strongly support the pursuit of trans rights? Yes absolutely. I want the work to be done, I want the safeguarding to be explored, I want as far as possible for everyone's need to be met. There is a large, extremely active, extremely (and deliberately) intimidating group working against even the idea of allowing that to be done. In any way.

They "reveal themselves" plenty but no they don't support any real policies, because real policies have to be backed by evidence, research, some semblance of intellectual rigour and this is something that this group not only refuses to engage in, but will actively brand others bigots for trying.

As a final thought to be honest I think you're just a bit stuck on what are now quite oldschool political divisions of left and right. As I've said repeatedly, that's not what it's about, the media still discusses it in those terms so that's how I'm thinking of it - what is seen to be the left and right. Identity politics has little if anything to do with the economic left/right scale.

[LeatherTrumpet]

But no wonder they’re having a meltdown. The woke left thought they had won,
and rightly so: the entire Western ecosystem – institutions, theatres, schools,
government entities, Silicon Valley tech and corporates more widely – has been utterly
dominated by their credo.

So when someone comes along and says that from now on Twitter won’t downgrade or
ban accounts because the politics are distasteful they throw their toys out of the pram
and act as though a literal fascist has seized control. Neutrality doesn’t mean hate
speech, which contravenes the law, as Musk has made clear, but the armies of little
Jacobins that have reigned over the site until now think that a commitment to free
speech must be a commitment to hate speech.

Shaun King, a prominent Black Lives Matter "activist" said “At its root, [Elon Musk]
wanting to purchase Twitter is… about white power.”

It is one of the sinister features of our time that free speech has become a dirty word
among millions of so-called progressives. The truth, as the Musk buyout has exposed, is
that progressivism today is actually darkly regressive – it craves censorship and
control, and hates the plurality of opinions that make up any truly liberal democracy.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...e-side-todays/

[Swan]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Shaun King, a prominent Black Lives Matter "activist" said “At its root, [Elon Musk]
wanting to purchase Twitter is… about white power.”

Tedious nonsense.

But hey, lets continue to separate and divide everything into race. It's working really well

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not about "othering transpeople", it's about hyperindividualism and identity politics. Is there a lot of that in most trans rights movements - especially the current wave of anti-intellectual "no debate" activism - certainly there is but it's not about that at all. You say I'm struggling to define what this group is but, funnily enough, I think that's because you have a blind spot... you don't think that the group exists or, if you do, you don't think there's any issue with it and "that's that". I think the idea of even considering butts up against some sort of perceived "immorality".

Did I and do I still understand the actual thinking behind "defund the police"? Yes absolutely, I understand what the people who started the movement were getting at. My horror is that 90+% of the people pulling their boots on to march for it appear not to. Did I and do I still strongly support the pursuit of trans rights? Yes absolutely. I want the work to be done, I want the safeguarding to be explored, I want as far as possible for everyone's need to be met. There is a large, extremely active, extremely (and deliberately) intimidating group working against even the idea of allowing that to be done. In any way.

They "reveal themselves" plenty but no they don't support any real policies, because real policies have to be backed by evidence, research, some semblance of intellectual rigour and this is something that this group not only refuses to engage in, but will actively brand others bigots for trying.

As a final thought to be honest I think you're just a bit stuck on what are now quite oldschool political divisions of left and right. As I've said repeatedly, that's not what it's about, the media still discusses it in those terms so that's how I'm thinking of it - what is seen to be the left and right. Identity politics has little if anything to do with the economic left/right scale.

You say it's not about othering trans people, but that's ultimately where it always ends up, the same as anyone who supports trans people also need to be othered, which is exactly what you've done in this conversation. I knew a few posts ago that you were desperate to make it trans centric, and look where we ended up.

Capitalism is the definition of a hyper individualistic society, we've both lived in them for all of our lives, and I don't ever remember you constantly making any link. Suddenly, a justification for trying to intellectualise attacks on a group, and suddenly HI becomes an explanation. Just doesn't make sense to me the way in which you repeatedly fall back to this place and treat it differently to all either of us have ever known. You may think that's unfair, but if you really were about supporting trans people as you claim, then I'd have expected to see some pushback against the chicks with dicks brigade and I don't think I've seen any. As I've stated numerous times, though, I've avoided the debate generally and still do, so if you've been pushing back against them and I haven't seen it, I apologise and retract that last part.

Do I accept that the people you claim are the far left exist? Absolutely. Is it in any way organised, do they have any power, and is their existence a factor in the claim that Elon is making, and what this thread is about? No. So when we're talking about this group that has nothing about it other than a few people believing in a few things, then I not only fail to see the connection Elon made, but your initial thought that these were the very people making it impossible for the left to win.

They are being used as a boogeymen to scare people and it's successful, because despite your claim that 90% of DtP folks don't know anything about the nuance involved, they aren't given a platform, don't appear on tv, don't have a political party, aren't a lobby group, and don't have a media, so that's how prevalent and important they are. Again, is this band of misfits and miscreants really an example of an out of control far left or a way to smear people that the prevailing orthodoxy doesn't want to hear from? The world is screwed and we're only hearing right or far right solutions. Regardless of how anyone feels, that is not a good place to be in. Identity politics and cancel culture belongs to the whole political spectrum, and yet, ask the ill informed person on tibb and they'll tell you it's all on the left, because who knew that hammering home the same exact nonsense day after day actually works?


That's nothing to do with any old scales of politics or economics either, that's just the reality of the situation and how people become visible in todays world. I can tell you about the groups on the right that have some or all of those things, I can tell you about groups on the left that have all or some of those things, but I can't tell you about those people beyond the fact they exist. I'm not stuck on anything in this discussion, I just disagree with your premises.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

But no wonder they’re having a meltdown. The woke left thought they had won,
and rightly so: the entire Western ecosystem – institutions, theatres, schools,
government entities, Silicon Valley tech and corporates more widely – has been utterly
dominated by their credo.

So when someone comes along and says that from now on Twitter won’t downgrade or
ban accounts because the politics are distasteful they throw their toys out of the pram
and act as though a literal fascist has seized control. Neutrality doesn’t mean hate
speech, which contravenes the law, as Musk has made clear, but the armies of little
Jacobins that have reigned over the site until now think that a commitment to free
speech must be a commitment to hate speech.

Shaun King, a prominent Black Lives Matter "activist" said “At its root, [Elon Musk]
wanting to purchase Twitter is… about white power.”

It is one of the sinister features of our time that free speech has become a dirty word
among millions of so-called progressives. The truth, as the Musk buyout has exposed, is
that progressivism today is actually darkly regressive – it craves censorship and
control, and hates the plurality of opinions that make up any truly liberal democracy.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...e-side-todays/

A point about twitter if the Musk purchase goes through - it will actually lead to more cancel culture, because the second identity is attached to profiles, it becomes instantly easier to go after someones work, home life, etc. All this will do is give more power to those that already have it. Can't cancel Musk, but Musk could cause a pile on that would make some random plebes life way more difficult.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

A point about twitter if the Musk purchase goes through - it will actually lead to more cancel culture, because the second identity is attached to profiles, it becomes instantly easier to go after someones work, home life, etc. All this will do is give more power to those that already have it. Can't cancel Musk, but Musk could cause a pile on that would make some random plebes life way more difficult.

Don’t you know? ‘Cancel culture’ is good as long as it’s directed at lefties who think trans people should be respected and allowed to live peacefully among everyone else, or people who think there’s still a long way to go before racial minorities are actually treated fairly

[arista]

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by arista

What a complete tool bag

[Swan]

Slim, not saying you personally, but in general, you wonder about the 'extreme left' term and if it actually exists. This how i see it. And i'll give a few examples -

Brexit -"ok, so here is why im for brexit, here is why im against it" There is no listening to opinion by the extreme left (not the left in general). All they hear/see is "for brexit" and the person trying to give their reasons is shot down, is wrong, there is nothing up for discussion. You are considered a 'good ol' right wing whitey' who 'likes things the way they are' and is completely against immigration. (I know Brexit is much more than that, it's just a quick take).

Race - (white cop arrests a black guy) "why did he get arrested, what was his crime/alleged crime, what are the facts". The extreme left make their mind up instantly, it's racism and that's that. And if you don't agree you're a racist too.

Gendering for kids/The Trans argument - Any parent, any teacher, any member of the general public should have the right to at least question what's going on with this stuff. But again, it's "aahhhh you bigot, you transphobe, if a 5 year old boy decides he wants to be a girl one day you mustn't question it, if you do you are wrong/scum"

The extreme left are made up of a group who wont listen to reason, they wont accept other's concerns, they wont allow opinion that may differ from theirs. They can't grasp the "just because i question something, doesn't mean im for, or against it" You must agree with us or you are against us. That ideology very must exists, and it's gone to the extreme now. That's the extreme left in a nutshell.

Do i think the rich should be taxed more - Yes. Do i think we need better healthcare - Yes. Do i think this Conservative Government is just as scummy as the last one - Yes. Am i, in the future open to voting Labour - Yes. Would i ever vote Conservative - HELL NO. This wouldn't be good enough for the extreme left though, because i do question trans and gender teaching. I do wonder if Brexit was the best move or not (i didn't vote fwiw). I don't see racism in everything (even though i absolutely believe it still very much exists, i just don't think it's anything like what it was historically, even 15 years plus ago, i think we are making big strides with race, still a ways to go, i know).

Just because i question subjects, topics, doesn't mean i support the right, unfortunately your individuality means nothing. "It's our way or the highway".

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Swan

Slim, not saying you personally, but in general, you wonder about the 'extreme left' term and if it actually exists. This how i see it. And i'll give a few examples -

Brexit -"ok, so here is why im for brexit, here is why im against it" There is no listening to opinion by the extreme left (not the left in general). All they hear/see is "for brexit" and the person trying to give their reasons is shot down, is wrong, there is nothing up for discussion. You are considered a 'good ol' right wing whitey' who 'likes things the way they are' and is completely against immigration. (I know Brexit is much more than that, it's just a quick take).

Race - (white cop arrests a black guy) "why did he get arrested, what was his crime/alleged crime, what are the facts". The extreme left make their mind up instantly, it's racism and that's that. And if you don't agree you're a racist too.

Gendering for kids/The Trans argument - Any parent, any teacher, any member of the general public should have the right to at least question what's going on with this stuff. But again, it's "aahhhh you bigot, you transphobe, if a 5 year old boy decides he wants to be a girl one day you mustn't question it, if you do you are wrong/scum"

The extreme left are made up of a group who wont listen to reason, they wont accept other's concerns, they wont allow opinion that may differ from theirs. They can't grasp the "just because i question something, doesn't mean im for, or against it" You must agree with us or you are against us. That ideology very must exists, and it's gone to the extreme now. That's the extreme left in a nutshell.

Do i think the rich should be taxed more - Yes. Do i think we need better healthcare - Yes. Do i think this Conservative Government is just as scummy as the last one - Yes. Am i, in the future open to voting Labour - Yes. Would i ever vote Conservative - HELL NO. This wouldn't be good enough for the extreme left though, because i do question trans and gender teaching. I do wonder if Brexit was the best move or not (i didn't vote fwiw). I don't see racism in everything (even though i absolutely believe it still very much exists, i just don't think it's anything like what it was historically, even 15 years plus ago, i think we are making big strides with race, still a ways to go, i know).

Just because i question subjects, topics, doesn't mean i support the right, unfortunately your individuality means nothing. "It's our way or the highway".

I appreciate the effort to explain things you've put in here, so I'll address them and we can see where we go.

Brexit - there was only ever one honest reason to support it - hatred of foreigners. All of the experts said it wold be disastrous for the UK, and it is. The BoE have said it will be worse for our economy than the pandemic, and the evidence clearly shows that was true. Anyone who pointed out the factual errors made by leavers were labelled as unpatriotic, project fear, and remoaners.

The problem with brexit, was that we knew how much of a nightmare it was going to be, and yet we were forced to listen to leavers telling us why the truth wasn't true, but to also comment on your point about the extreme left, an actual or real far/extreme left would be far more likely to support leave than remain. Remain is actually a fairly centrist position.

Take Corbyn - he voted remain but was pretty much up for brexit. He is the furthest left leader of the two main parties, you will probably ever see in your lifetime (and I hope you have at least a good 80 years left), so what you are assigning to the left, isn't necessarily the left, its just stuff you've had drummed into you is the left.

Race - Individuals are racist that's a fact. Regardless of what colour you are. The whole issue with race isn't necessarily about individual cases (I'm giving you my perspective), although these cases do play a part, it's more about systemic policies and practices that were initially created purposefully to target non-white people, such as stop and search.

Trans rights - no problem with anyone questioning anything, but the debate isn't about existence, dignity, and a path forward, it becomes about denigration. Pick anyone of the 8498693846398938 trans threads on here, and you'll see the same posts about genitals and bathrooms, which not only reduces a powerless minority down to an irrelevance, but most trans people are just trying to get through their days (like the rest of us), so to even have to fight for acceptance of existence is pretty demeaning. There are issues in this debate that I have concerns over, but they aren't concerns about trans people themselves.

The same arguments about black or gay people have been dragged out of the 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's and rehashed to appeal to generally good and right minded people in the 2020's. All the arguments against them involve predators, saving our wimin, and fear. The same as it ever was.

The extreme left are made up of a group who wont listen to reason, they wont accept other's concerns, they wont allow opinion that may differ from theirs. They can't grasp the "just because i question something, doesn't mean im for, or against it" You must agree with us or you are against us. That ideology very must exists, and it's gone to the extreme now. That's the extreme left in a nutshell.

Do you have an example because all I see is the Keyser Sozification of a few people on twitter that don't have any power. Meanwhile you have a proto fascist government in the UK, that has banned protest, taken control of the elections, and knowingly sent our relatives back in to covid care homes. Do you see the way you're being shown the shiny object of a group with zero power, whilst the actual government with an 80 seat majority and all the power are actually infringing on your rights and destroying your country whilst blaming the left? Watch a couple of Boris speeches and you'll see all the same guff about woke and snowflakes.

I can't in good conscience vote for the tories, lib-dems, or labour because I don't vote for right wing parties. I will only be voting for the greens or abstain until the labour party returns to a left wing party.

[Toy Soldier]

I understand where you're coming from Slim because a couple of years back I was making all of the same arguments practically verbatim. All I can really do is reiterate what I said before - I know for a fact that a (not currently small, and still growing, especially in under-25's, but not exclusively by any means) group exists that you simply don't believe exists, because you haven't seen it. That's fair enough. I don't disagree with the vast majority of what you have to say on the issue and I certainly don't align with the Tories/brexiteers et al... I think you're just missing that the mechanisms you're talking about (distraction from the real issues) don't, and simply can't, rely on the naivety and ignorance of just one group. Tribalism by its very nature requires two or more tribes. I think the assumption that one is more upstanding than the other can only ever really be rooted in personal bias... It's the same donkey in a different hat.

Very briefly on the actual issue of transpeople I can only repeat, again, that it isn't about thinking that transpeople are predators, it's about the complete and utter failure to consider that certain aspects of trans rights that are being fought for (and gradually won) are wide open to exploitation BY predators who are not transpeople at all. They're mostly common or garden men. They are a danger to women, to children, and because of the backlash against genuine trans people, they're a massive danger to them too. This is an issue that did not exist in gay rights, or in race equality. It's a false comparison lacking several of the key components of what makes it an issue at all.

But hey who cares about any of that so long as we all look like we're "on the right side of history", I guess.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I understand where you're coming from Slim because a couple of years back I was making all of the same arguments practically verbatim. All I can really do is reiterate what I said before - I know for a fact that a (not currently small, and still growing, especially in under-25's, but not exclusively by any means) group exists that you simply don't believe exists, because you haven't seen it. That's fair enough. I don't disagree with the vast majority of what you have to say on the issue and I certainly don't align with the Tories/brexiteers et al... I think you're just missing that the mechanisms you're talking about (distraction from the real issues) don't, and simply can't, rely on the naivety and ignorance of just one group. Tribalism by its very nature requires two or more tribes. I think the assumption that one is more upstanding than the other can only ever really be rooted in personal bias... It's the same donkey in a different hat.

Very briefly on the actual issue of transpeople I can only repeat, again, that it isn't about thinking that transpeople are predators, it's about the complete and utter failure to consider that certain aspects of trans rights that are being fought for (and gradually won) are wide open to exploitation BY predators who are not transpeople at all. They're mostly common or garden men. They are a danger to women, to children, and because of the backlash against genuine trans people, they're a massive danger to them too. This is an issue that did not exist in gay rights, or in race equality. It's a false comparison lacking several of the key components of what makes it an issue at all.

But hey who cares about any of that so long as we all look like we're "on the right side of history", I guess.

I hope the addition of that last line made you feel better, because I had a whole different reply to continue the discussion. Really weird, but hey, I'll let you get back to discussing bathrooms and other peoples genitals with everyone else, which is totally normal behaviour

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I hope the addition of that last line made you feel better, because I had a whole different reply to continue the discussion. Really weird

It's not weird at all it's the crux of the entire issue. Everyone wants to think they're on the right side of history. It's a catchphrase that sums up the exact distraction and division that you're talking about. If you believe there is one in any meaningful way then there's no way to discuss the nuances of any issue at all.

I'll let you get back to discussing bathrooms and other peoples genitals with everyone else, which is totally normal behaviour

G'wan, find me one example of me doing this