[bitontheslide]

A ringleader of a grooming gang has avoided being deported so it would therefore be wrong to deport two other gang members, a tribunal has heard.

Abdul Aziz, 51, Adil Khan, 51, and Qari Rauf, 52, were among nine gang members jailed in 2012 for a catalogue of child sex offences in Rochdale.

Aziz, known as "the Master" by the gang, has previously been told he will not be deported by the Home Office.

Khan and Rauf claim deportation would interfere with their human rights.

The tribunal had heard how all three were liable to be deprived of UK citizenship and deported as they also held Pakistani nationality, and then-home secretary Theresa May ruled it would be "conducive to the public good".

Since being release from jail, the men have fought a long legal battle against deportation, mounting multiple legal challenges and appeals, spanning several years.

It emerged at the immigration tribunal hearing in London, Aziz had already been told he will not be stripped of his UK citizenship and deported.

Aziz had renounced his Pakistani citizenship on 13 July, 2018, six years after he was jailed, but just days before the Court of Appeal ruled he could be deprived of his UK citizenship.

Rauf and Khan only renounced their Pakistani citizenship in September of the same year after the Court of Appeal ruling.

Lawyers for Rauf said the law demands consistency of treatment and although Rauf could regain his Pakistani nationality simply by signing a form, he refuses to do so because he does not want to be deported.

Khan told the hearing: "I have a question for the Home Secretary, whether Mr Aziz was an angel and I am a devil?"

Aziz was jailed for nine years in 2012, for conspiracy to engage in sexual activity with a child by penetrative sex and trafficking for sexual exploitation a 15-year-old girl.

He took his victim to flats in Rochdale where she was plied with vodka and drugs and coerced into sex with gangs of men in return for payment to him.

Rauf, a father-of-five, trafficked a 15-year-old girl for sex, driving her to secluded areas to have sex with her in his taxi and ferry her to a flat in Rochdale where he and others had sex with her.

Khan got a 13-year-old girl pregnant, but denied he was the father, then met another girl, 15, and trafficked her to others using violence when she complained.

The hearing was adjourned with a decision on deportation expected later this year.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...ester-61957132

[Oliver_W]

Why would even a legal aid lawyer take on those sub-humans' cases?

[hijaxers]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Why would even a legal aid lawyer take on those sub-humans' cases?

Why are they even getting legal aid ?

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by hijaxers

Why are they even getting legal aid ?

Because of human rights.

It's an entitlement.

As for deportation, I don't agree with it. Are we now going to deport everyone who has committed a crime? Rapists, murderers too? They held British citizenship...they have completed their time in prison (which btw, the sentences were disgusting but that's the CPS for you).

It needs to be fair across the board. They committed the crime in this country of which they have British citizenship... In the eyes of the law, their time is spent.

I have a completely different view whereby there might be a national security threat, ie terrorism, then deportation is maybe a necessity.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

Because of human rights.

It's an entitlement.

As for deportation, I don't agree with it. Are we now going to deport everyone who has committed a crime? Rapists, murderers too? They held British citizenship...they have completed their time in prison (which btw, the sentences were disgusting but that's the CPS for you).

It needs to be fair across the board. They committed the crime in this country of which they have British citizenship... In the eyes of the law, their time is spent.

I have a completely different view whereby there might be a national security threat, ie terrorism, then deportation is maybe a necessity.

I tend to agree with this, and I think it would be unfair to punish their families for their wrong doings by deporting them

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I tend to agree with this, and I think it would be unfair to punish their families for their wrong doings by deporting them

So we punish everyone else by letting them stay ?

They are not gonna turn into angels overnight ...

It would be a good deterrent imho


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[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Zizu

So we punish everyone else by letting them stay ?

They are not gonna turn into angels overnight ...

It would be a good deterrent imho


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Some monster who thinks it’s ok to rape someone.. especially a young 13 year old girl deserves FAR more than just being deported ...


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[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Zizu

So we punish everyone else by letting them stay ?

They are not gonna turn into angels overnight ...

It would be a good deterrent imho


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Who is everyone?

Their victims, yes, the families of those victims? Time served will never be enough for them.

It wouldn't be a good deterrent. People who engage in sexual activities with children are mentally unwell. Deport them and let them potentially continue in another country? It's not going to stop some from still engaging in this sort of activity.

Originally Posted by Zizu

Some monster who thinks it’s ok to rape someone.. especially a young 13 year old girl deserves FAR more than just being deported ...


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Deportation is not the answer and neither is the death penalty. Longer sentences and rehab is needed.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Why would even a legal aid lawyer take on those sub-humans' cases?

Legal right to a defense; if it's not provided then they can simply wait until they're convicted, point out that proper legal process wasn't followed, and then they're back on the street on a technicality.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

Who is everyone?

Their victims, yes, the families of those victims? Time served will never be enough for them.

It wouldn't be a good deterrent. People who engage in sexual activities with children are mentally unwell. Deport them and let them potentially continue in another country? It's not going to stop some from still engaging in this sort of activity.




Deportation is not the answer and neither is the death penalty. Longer sentences and rehab is needed.

But we don’t ‘do’ long sentences...

It’s usually a ridiculously short sentence ... then they are allowed out after they’ve served HALF the sentence LESS any time they’ve been held ..


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[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

Who is everyone?

Their victims, yes, the families of those victims? Time served will never be enough for them.

It wouldn't be a good deterrent. People who engage in sexual activities with children are mentally unwell. Deport them and let them potentially continue in another country? It's not going to stop some from still engaging in this sort of activity.

Most of the men in these grooming gangs are not mentally ill they're just abusers and rapists. They're not targetting pre-adolescent children, they're targetting teenage girls who have biologically reached the age of sexual maturity, but are nonetheless clearly not adults, are vulnerable, and easily groomed or manipulated which is precisely why we have an age of consent and statutory rape laws.

There's nothing to be gained by conflating statutory rapists and grooming gans like these with paedophilia, it simply is psychologically speaking not paedophilia, and in legal terms there's a clear distinction between child molestation (pre-pubescent children) and statutory rape (post-pubescent but under the age of consent).

That's not to say that one is more severe or worse than the other, that would be a separate debate, in this sense though I think it can inadvertantly DOWNPLAY the crimes of these men by saying that they have a mental illness or deviant compulsion that they can't control, rather than calling what they are; predators who target vulnerable young girls simply because they're more easily manipulated.

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Most of the men in these grooming gangs are not mentally ill they're just abusers and rapists. They're not targetting pre-adolescent children, they're targetting teenage girls who have biologically reached the age of sexual maturity, but are nonetheless clearly not adults, are vulnerable, and easily groomed or manipulated which is precisely why we have an age of consent and statutory rape laws.

There's nothing to be gained by conflating statutory rapists and grooming gans like these with paedophilia, it simply is psychologically speaking not paedophilia, and in legal terms there's a clear distinction between child molestation (pre-pubescent children) and statutory rape (post-pubescent but under the age of consent).

That's not to say that one is more severe or worse than the other, that would be a separate debate, in this sense though I think it can inadvertantly DOWNPLAY the crimes of these men by saying that they have a mental illness or deviant compulsion that they can't control, rather than calling what they are; predators who target vulnerable young girls simply because they're more easily manipulated.

So you don't think somebody who rapes someone or abusers someone is mentally ill?

People often don't like to hear it because they let their own personal feelings way too heavily on such circumstances, but we would treat someone who has schizophrenia, for example, but not view them in the same light as a rapist or abuser.

Yes they are also predators and manipulators, but I also think they're mentally ill. Something is not right in their cognition to make them do such things in the first place.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

So you don't think somebody who rapes someone or abusers someone is mentally ill?

People often don't like to hear it because they let their own personal feelings way too heavily on such circumstances, but we would treat someone who has schizophrenia, for example, but not view them in the same light as a rapist or abuser.

Yes they are also predators and manipulators, but I also think they're mentally ill. Something is not right in their cognition to make them do such things in the first place.

No I don't think all rapists and abusers are mentally ill, far from it. They may have serious social deficiencies in their life that have led them down a path of anger, violence and entitlement but that's not the same thing as a mental illness. Take a look at the historical stats and figures relating to any invading military force in history; Romans, Vikings, the European conquest of the Americas... rape and abuse were absolutely rife. Were all of those people "mentally ill"? No they were just violently rampaging and knew they would get away with it.

I wish I thought all rapists and abusers were mentally ill, I really do. Unfortunately with my wife working full time with the victims of domestic abuse and rape, I'm too painfully aware of just how common it actually is to think it's likely that all abusers are mentally unwell. It's absolutely everywhere, in places you wouldn't even imagine, from people you wouldn't imagine. Horrifying.

edit] I think I can shorten this, really;

I think there are many, many deeply immoral people in the world, and I don't believe that immorality is a mental illness.

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No I don't think all rapists and abusers are mentally ill, far from it. They may have serious social deficiencies in their life that have led them down a path of anger, violence and entitlement but that's not the same thing as a mental illness. Take a look at the historical stats and figures relating to any invading military force in history; Romans, Vikings, the European conquest of the Americas... rape and abuse were absolutely rife. Were all of those people "mentally ill"? No they were just violently rampaging and knew they would get away with it.

I wish I thought all rapists and abusers were mentally ill, I really do. Unfortunately with my wife working full time with the victims of domestic abuse and rape, I'm too painfully aware of just how common it actually is to think it's likely that all abusers are mentally unwell. It's absolutely everywhere, in places you wouldn't even imagine, from people you wouldn't imagine. Horrifying.

edit] I think I can shorten this, really;

I think there are many, many deeply immoral people in the world, and I don't believe that immorality is a mental illness.

I don't think it's common for people to think they're mentally unwell, like I say I think people view it completely differently and don't have the empathy for someone who is genuinely unwell and has gone on to commit rape or abuse someone. Personal feelings override that.

Yeah not all, but some will be. They obviously have issues anyway.

[parmnion]

It all boils down to hatred.

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No I don't think all rapists and abusers are mentally ill, far from it. They may have serious social deficiencies in their life that have led them down a path of anger, violence and entitlement but that's not the same thing as a mental illness. Take a look at the historical stats and figures relating to any invading military force in history; Romans, Vikings, the European conquest of the Americas... rape and abuse were absolutely rife. Were all of those people "mentally ill"? No they were just violently rampaging and knew they would get away with it.

I wish I thought all rapists and abusers were mentally ill, I really do. Unfortunately with my wife working full time with the victims of domestic abuse and rape, I'm too painfully aware of just how common it actually is to think it's likely that all abusers are mentally unwell. It's absolutely everywhere, in places you wouldn't even imagine, from people you wouldn't imagine. Horrifying.

edit] I think I can shorten this, really;

I think there are many, many deeply immoral people in the world, and I don't believe that immorality is a mental illness.

Couldn’t agree more TS.
Greedy self entitled bstds that think they can do and have what they want.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

I don't think it's common for people to think they're mentally unwell, like I say I think people view it completely differently and don't have the empathy for someone who is genuinely unwell and has gone on to commit rape or abuse someone. Personal feelings override that.

Yeah not all, but some will be. They obviously have issues anyway.

I certainly don't think they're mentally healthy but that's a very different thing to having an actual mental illness.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Couldn’t agree more TS.
Greedy self entitled bstds that think they can do and have what they want.

From what I've seen its a mindset that sadly seems to be spreading quite rapidly among young teenage lads these days from all backgrounds... there are complicated social circumstances surrounding it but what I keep coming back to in terms of how quickly these toxic mindsets (aggression, entitlement) are taking hold is Social Media. To be more specific, mainly TikTok and YouTube. Overall... mainly TikTok.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Couldn’t agree more TS.
Greedy self entitled bstds that think they can do and have what they want.

And yet there are so many people who are happy to ensure that THEIR human rights aren’t impinged on .

Those were innocent young girls /women and it turns my stomach .

I still think we are far , far too soft in this country


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[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I certainly don't think they're mentally healthy but that's a very different thing to having an actual mental illness.

I still don't think people would care.

It's something very overlooked because all people see is the crime they are accused of committing.

That's my point.

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Zizu

And yet there are so many people who are happy to ensure that THEIR human rights aren’t impinged on .

Those were innocent young girls /women and it turns my stomach .

I still think we are far , far too soft in this country


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Let's just stick them in hole then to rot?

What do you suggest?

Deportation doesn't solve anything. They hold British citizenship

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

Let's just stick them in hole then to rot?

What do you suggest?

Deportation doesn't solve anything. They hold British citizenship

Yeah the hole would work ..


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[LeatherTrumpet]

Woke culture scared to say Pakistani Muslims who raped white girls

[arista]

Police have today Apologised

And so has the Labour Council.

A Shocking account:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...injection.html

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Woke culture scared to say Pakistani Muslims who raped white girls

I don’t understand why their leaders are not dealing with this problem internally !?

Also what are the parents of the girls doing to educate their daughters and prevent these crimes occurring in the first place ?


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